Capturing TV

[ROBO731]

If you capture from a tv (using component) what will be the default container and codecs?

[jagabo]

Whatever you capture device/software uses.

[usually_quiet]

If you capture from a tv (using component) what will be the default container and codecs?

The answer to your question depends upon the capture device and sometimes the capture software used. Which capture device(s) have you been considering?

Too slow yet again!

[ROBO731]

Well, I haven't really loooked at too many options. I was originally trying to decide whether to capture from component or by using a tuner card. Then it was explained to me that I would limited to channels with the "copy-freely" flag if I went the tuner route. So I figured it'd be best to use a card which captured from component. I was looking at the Hauppague cards and devices, but I'm open to any suggestions. Can you clarify for me how people capture ts streams. To my understanding this has to be done directly from the cable. Also, can you explain what the original signal is?

Thanks for the responses by the way.

[usually_quiet]

Well, I haven't really loooked at too many options. I was originally trying to decide whether to capture from component or by using a tuner card. Then it was explained to me that I would limited to channels with the "copy-freely" flag if I went the tuner route. So I figured it'd be best to use a card which captured from component. I was looking at the Hauppague cards and devices, but I'm open to any suggestions.

The Hauppauge HD-PVR (1212), Hauppauge HD-PVR 2 (1512), and Hauppauge Colossus (1414) all capture component video input as H.264.

The container file format used for recordings depends upon the software used.

All three models can be used with WinTV v7 (Hauppauge's PVR software) which records to a .ts file. Windows 7's Media Center and Windows 8's Media Center which can also be used with all three models, record in a .wtv container.

The Hauppauge HD-PVR (1212) is bundled with Arcsoft TotalMediaExtreme for capture, but I don't know what options are allowed for output.

The Colossus is supported by NextPVR and MediaPortal which use a .ts container for recordings.

Hauppauge supplies ArcSoft Showbiz with the HD-PVR 2 (1512), and Hauppauge Colossus (1414), which can capture to several different containers, but .ts is the best choice. .mp4 is the default, but .mp4 files Showbiz creates contain errors. I haven't heard that anything is wrong with the .m2ts files Showbiz creates, but some editors work better .ts files.

Can you clarify for me how people capture ts streams. To my understanding this has to be done directly from the cable. Also, can you explain what the original signal is?

A transport stream is a simply standard format used for broadcasting or storing audio, video, and some other data. A .ts file can store a transport stream. The Hauppauge devices above output an H.264 transport stream. Digital cable, satellite TV and over-the-air broadcasts also use transport streams.

If you are talking about decrypting and recording an encrypted digital cable transport stream, for the most part you need a CableCARD, a CableCARD tuner, and either Windows 7's Media Center or Windows 8's Media Center. Sometimes it is possible to record a decrypted digital cable transport stream from an HD cable box via Firewire, but that does not work in many cases because cable companies are no longer required to allow Firewire output from an HD cable box, or because there is no compatible cable box Firewire driver available, particularly for 64-bit versions of Windows.

[hech54]

Component or Composite?

[jagabo]

Note that some cable/sat boxes won't output HDMI and component video at the same time. So if you run HDMI from the box to your TV you may not get any signal at the box's component output.

You may also find that most of your MCE recordings using a cablecard device are encrypted and can't be viewed on anything other than the computer that recorded them. On our cable system almost everything recorded encrypted except local broadcast channels.

And some cable companies drag their feet regarding cablecard devices. You may have to be very persistent to get one working.

Your best bet is to get a device that captures HDMI and use an HDMI splitter that removes HDCP. Like this one:

http://www.amazon.com/CVID-BG-520-splitter-switcher-XBOX360/dp/B0089DSLMY/

[jman98]

Your best bet is to get a device that captures HDMI and use an HDMI splitter that removes HDCP. Like this one:

I disagree. His best bet is to record via component to a Hauppauge device as such a file will contain no copy restrictions and be a significantly cheaper method of going about this than having to buy a special HDMI splitter that has to be bought on the hush hush because it's illegal to sell in certain countries like the USA.

[ROBO731]

So using a splitter would take care of the handshake and allow me to capture whatever I want from HDMI? Also, aren't the transport streams usually encoded in mpeg-2? Is there a way to capture them in the original mpeg-2 codec without re-encoding to h.264?

[jagabo]

So using a splitter would take care of the handshake and allow me to capture whatever I want from HDMI?

Yes. And you avoid degradation from converting the digital source to analog (for the component connection) and then back to digital (in the capture device).

Also, aren't the transport streams usually encoded in mpeg-2?

ATSC (over the air) and QAM (cable) are MPEG 2. In theory, cable doesn't have to be MPEG 2 but I believe almost all in the USA are at this time.

Is there a way to capture them in the original mpeg-2 codec without re-encoding to h.264?

Any ATSC or clear QAM tuner can capture the broadcast transport stream without reencoding (they may remux into another container though). But usually on cable systems only the local broadcast stations (and a few other worthless stations) are broadcast clear QAM. Most other stations are encrypted. The FCC has recently dropped the requirement that local broadcast channels be available as unencrypted QAM. So your cable company could start encrypting local channels at any time. They can also (though unlikely) disable the component outputs of your cable box at any time.

[jagabo]

Your best bet is to get a device that captures HDMI and use an HDMI splitter that removes HDCP. Like this one:

I disagree. His best bet is to record via component to a Hauppauge device as such a file will contain no copy restrictions and be a significantly cheaper method of going about this than having to buy a special HDMI splitter that has to be bought on the hush hush because it's illegal to sell in certain countries like the USA.

The device I pointed out is less than US$25. Screw the legal issues.

[ROBO731]

Any ATSC or clear QAM tuner can capture the broadcast transport stream without reencoding (they may remux into another container though). But usually on cable systems only the local broadcast stations (and a few other worthless stations) are broadcast clear QAM. Most other stations are encrypted. The FCC has recently dropped the requirement that local broadcast channels be available as unencrypted QAM. So your cable company could start encrypting local channels at any time. They can also (though unlikely) disable the component outputs of your cable box at any time.

Why is it that a tuner can capture without reencoding, but capturing from the HDMI or component would require reencoding?

Your best bet is to get a device that captures HDMI and use an HDMI splitter that removes HDCP. Like this one:

I disagree. His best bet is to record via component to a Hauppauge device as such a file will contain no copy restrictions and be a significantly cheaper method of going about this than having to buy a special HDMI splitter that has to be bought on the hush hush because it's illegal to sell in certain countries like the USA.

Just curious, are you saying that buying them is illegal or using them in this way is illegal?

[jagabo]

Why is it that a tuner can capture without reencoding, but capturing from the HDMI or component would require reencoding?

The video is decompressed before being sent over the HDMI cable. Ie, what travels over HDMI is uncompressed digital video. Uncompressed 1080i YV12 video would be about 336 GB/hr.

[ROBO731]

Ah, I see. Thanks for that explanation. I think I'm definitely going with the HDMI or component option then. With an HDCP splitter, I'd be able to send one HDMI to a capture device and one to the tv right? That way I'd be able to watch and record simultaneously? If not, it isn't a big deal.

[usually_quiet]

Why is it that a tuner can capture without reencoding, but capturing from the HDMI or component would require reencoding?

A digtal tuner's output is video and audio that are already compressed (MPEG-2 + AC3). HDMI is digital but uses a form of uncompressed video. You could capture it without compression, but the file size would be beyond gigantic and would be more technically challenging to write to a hard drive. Even uncompressed standard definition video consumes 60GB/hour. Component video is analog, so a computer has no way to store it in a file until it is converted to a digital format.

Just curious, are you saying that buying them is illegal or using them in this way is illegal?

The Digital Milennium Copywright Act makes it illegal in the US to sell devices or software that remove copy protection, including HDCP, by design. Some (but not all) HDMI splitters remove HDCP as a side effect, which makes their legality a gray area. The design for these splitters may also violate the HDMI technology license, so even if it were decided that they don't violate the DMCA, the manufacturer might still be forced to change the design or withdraw the product.

[ROBO731]

I see, thanks.

[jagabo]

Just curious, are you saying that buying them is illegal or using them in this way is illegal?

You can read the DMCA and decide for yourself:
http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf

My interpretation is that it's illegal to advertise or sell a device whose primary purpose is to remove HDCP. Since these are splitters the seller can argue that the primary purpose is to split HDMI signals. And the seller never mentions that the devices remove HDCP.

[ROBO731]

I see, thanks for clarifying.