Possible color noise from laserdisc and restoring/fixing it

[mazinz]

There was a thread on here years ago that I can no longer find, but it addressed this issue. The poster had a Pioneer LD player but was getting essentially RGB like strips vertically down the picture. For some reason I think it had to do with the actual player itself (comb filter maybe?). I am working on a clip now from a Japanese laserdisc captured the usual way from the Pioneer LD into the datavideo 1000 tbc and then into the jvcdrm-100s dvd recorder deck

I am getting this RGB type stripes, though faint in the picture below. Would I need a comb filter or is there some other option I can do on the PC side to either minimize or totally clear them up so I can restore the pic a bit

the picture has two versions, one being the normal and the other really brightened just so you can see the noise a bit better

[vhelp]

no need to use any tbc (or dvd recorder as pass-through) in laserdisc player transfer are necessary.

for maximum quality:
a) you want to go the shortest distance with LD->Capture Card.
b) use composite connections only, (no svideo) and best comb-filter in a capture card

what laserdisc player brand/model, and capture card did you use ?
and just to be certain, are you using composite connections in/out ?

judging from the one pic you uploaded, i would say your laserdisc player is at fault. probably a warn (aged) laser. but i would try other composite leads, maybe another brand capture card.

in my experience, the final captured video's quality (grain, etc) varies from disc to disc. some are just noisy while others are sometimes clean.

edit: it is also possible that your in-between (tbc/dvd recorder) equipment is causing this.

[mazinz]

no need to use any tbc (or dvd recorder as pass-through) in laserdisc player transfer are necessary.

for maximum quality:
a) you want to go the shortest distance with LD->Capture Card.
b) use composite connections only, (no svideo) and best comb-filter in a capture card

what laserdisc player brand/model, and capture card did you use ?
and just to be certain, are you using composite connections in/out ?

judging from the one pic you uploaded, i would say your laserdisc player is at fault. probably a warn (aged) laser. but i would try other composite leads, maybe another brand capture card.

in my experience, the final captured video's quality (grain, etc) varies from disc to disc. some are just noisy while others are sometimes clean.

edit: it is also possible that your in-between (tbc/dvd recorder) equipment is causing this.

I should probably clarify more that I am pretty sure this has to do with the actual laserdisc itself which I will get to in a moment.

The problem does not occur for every disc. It only occurs on a few and interestingly enough ones from overseas (overseas for me since I am in the US).

Right now I just own the Pioneer LD cld-d503 player. In addition to that player I used to have a model right below an elite (900 something, but it broke and I no longer have the player). For capturing I moved away from capture cards and went with the infamously known on this board for their excellent analog recording the jvcdrm dvd recorder deck series (mine being the 100s deck)

Now before I had the datavideo TBC and regardless of what players I was using (the 503 or 900) again this issue would sometimes occur and why I think it had to do more with where/how a certain laser was made.

I did use svhs however for capturing the image. I can try it again using composite and see how it goes

The movie I am working with I only need the first roughly 3 mins. In a nutshell the film is Dr. Butcher MD. The US version has a certain edit of the film that so far can only be found in two places- 30 year old vhs tapes or this rare 1989 Japanese laserdisc. The US distributor made a custom introduction and this is what I am trying to restore a bit. The intro itself was never in good quality regardless of where you saw it, but the LD so far looks much better than the VHS version.

The intro on this laser is interesting because though the film is presented in widescreen (4:3 obviously) the intro is still full frame (and once the film starts it switches to wide). This also might suggest they may have used a video master for the intro

I believe the color issue is mostly from the master (or source it came from) they used as well as the way it may have been transferred to LD

For arguments sake lets say it ends up being the actual disc. The noise I am asking about, would a decomb filter work or would I need to do something else? I was able to cleanup the actual pic pretty well using Sony Vegas and a few filters but I really want to wipe out that vertical noise (the uploaded picture I provided was from the raw capture)

Tomorrow will try composite and let you know if that fixed or changed anything. Will do both with and without TBC

thanks again--

[vhelp]

it is probably the way you described, that it is the recorded-to-disc fault. and you will probably have to use an elaborate software noise reduction filter of some kind that isolates just that virtical section to clean up. if its just a few seconds, it may not be worth the effort. but nothing wrong with giving it a shot.

just for the heck of it, i decided to give the hdpvr a shot on my laserdisc player since i keep it next to me for quick tests. still have bladerunner in it. i'm always trying new things. anyway.

try your composite connections using a capture card or the jvcdrm recorder and see if it helps clear it up some. may find you won't have to do much or anything at all. post another pic again when you complete that.

[Brad]

no need to use any tbc (or dvd recorder as pass-through) in laserdisc player transfer are necessary.

My cheap LD player has horizontal jitter.

For OP: there is way too much macroblocking at the noise level in your capture to do any serious cleanup.

What the heck is that a shot of, by the way?

[mazinz]

it is probably the way you described, that it is the recorded-to-disc fault. and you will probably have to use an elaborate software noise reduction filter of some kind that isolates just that virtical section to clean up. if its just a few seconds, it may not be worth the effort. but nothing wrong with giving it a shot.

just for the heck of it, i decided to give the hdpvr a shot on my laserdisc player since i keep it next to me for quick tests. still have bladerunner in it. i'm always trying new things. anyway.

try your composite connections using a capture card or the jvcdrm recorder and see if it helps clear it up some. may find you won't have to do much or anything at all. post another pic again when you complete that.

I tried composite and got the same result. I then threw in another Japanese disc (Jurassic park: lost world) and sure enough the color issue was not present.

However in doing this test I think I discovered the first laserdisc to actually use Macro copy protection since without the TBC it kept triggering the copy protection deal with the jvc deck. I then used the tbc with composite, but it still had the color issue

no need to use any tbc (or dvd recorder as pass-through) in laserdisc player transfer are necessary.

My cheap LD player has horizontal jitter.

For OP: there is way too much macroblocking at the noise level in your capture to do any serious cleanup.

What the heck is that a shot of, by the way?

The sample pic was a shot of a field before it went to show a gravestone.
I was able to clean it up to a minimal degree but nothing to write home about. It stills needs a lot of tweaking but I think I am going in the right direction. The enclosed pic will show you a raw and after (which is still messy). Ignore the usual interlacing, etc, I just want to get a feel to see what little I can accomplish. The real




downside is that this special intro footage was added as a bonus (and with no sound) for the US dvd release (the film is more known as Zombie Holocaust). The double edged sword being the material has horrible way off coloring and saturation and it has some severe film print damage. The lesser of the 3 evils is this laserdisc release.

I also know a sample is usually asked for, in the meantime here is a youtube clip of the intro I am trying to do what I can with. It aint pretty and this being the best of sources out there. Still would try to like to remove the vertical color bars but I am to understand that it might not be an option. Any further info would greatly be appreciated

[Brad]

However in doing this test I think I discovered the first laserdisc to actually use Macro copy protection since without the TBC it kept triggering the copy protection deal with the jvc deck. I then used the tbc with composite, but it still had the color issue

Macrovision is impossible to add to a LaserDisc because the format uses the VBI to store control data. Just another false signal detection.

You could try blurring the chroma: MergeChroma(Blur(1.5))

And other chroma filters that are aimed at noisy sources like VHS, like CNR2.

[jman98]

mazinz - As vaporeon800 points out, there is no Macrovision in laserdiscs. Hollywood insisted that makers of DVD recorders make them supersensitive to Macrovision so that they won't (gasp!) record Macrovision protected VHS tapes. The result is that if anything in the video signal is off, the DVD recorder freaks out, interprets this as Macrovision, and refuses to record. Plenty of home users have triggered similar actions on their DVD recorders when simply trying to record homemade VHS tapes of home movies without any Macrovision at all on the tape since it's homemade.

[jagabo]

The problem does not occur for every disc. It only occurs on a few and interestingly enough ones from overseas (overseas for me since I am in the US)... I believe the color issue is mostly from the master (or source it came from) they used

Yes, analog tape is likely the source of the chroma noise. More likely with Chinese imports

[jagabo]

Check your laserdisc player to see if there is an IRE 0 vs. IRE 7.5 setup setting. It might be labeled Video Hi/Low or something like that. The biggest problem is the black level is way to high. Check your DVD recorder too. And, as someone else pointed out, recording direct to DVD is not a great choice.

[vhelp]

and also, check if your jvcdrm-100s recorder has black level setup. i think most recorders do. on my toshiba dr430 it is selectable on/off in real time. if availabe, that may improve your color levels the next time you record it. and i agree also, not a very good idea to record to mpeg. for laserdisc, you really should analog capture through composite connection. so far, best i've been able to get from laserdisc is with one of the winfast (or hauppauge hvr-2250) capture cards, both are pci i/o cards. i can't recall the links (i'm on a netbook right now) to some pics i posted from my laserdisc using the winfast capture card. if you are curious of the results, search around for "blade runner" or something like that, you may find it.

[jagabo]

and also, check if your jvcdrm-100s recorder has black level setup.

That's what I meant when I said "check your DVD recorder".

for laserdisc, you really should analog capture through composite connection.

Yes. What's recorded on the disc is an analog composite signal. That composite signal must be separated into luma and chroma components before digitizing. If you have an laserdisc player with s-video output the question becomes which device has the better composite to s-video conversion, the laserdisc player or the capture device. Most laserdisc players with s-video output have very crappy converters.

[mazinz]

Thanks for the replies. Ok the JVC nor the Pioneer have any black level adjustment. In this case playing the laser disc directly to the tv this is how it looks. It was not some remastered studio release but rather a quicky threw on laserdisc from Nikkatsu. I have dealt with the black level bug issue in my older panasonic dvd recorder deck (now used as a pass through device if at all), but the JVC does not have that problem.

using again, as an example the Jurassic park Lost world Japanese disc has great colors and nice crisp black bars for the letterboxing. It had no apparent brightness due to a black level bug issue (unlike dr. butcher). I have noticed though that seemingly cult films with many laserdisc for them being nothing more than a general transfer in looking at them now I would even argue that in many cases the vhs might still have the edge over it

back on point:
I can say it would be the first laserdisc (even ones that had some rot going) that ever tripped up any sort of dvd recorder that I worked with. Just never thought that would occur with the source being a laserdisc

using a capture card is not an option at this time. I used to have the way old dazzle dvc2 pci version that actually did do a decent job (hmm pretty sure I still might have it), but found everything easier going with the homedeck recorder route and at that time (and seemingly still today) the best decks for analog sources were the jvc, some toshibas and some pioneer

I do also have the Sigma color corrector scc2 device for when I do things on the fly with a recorder deck and if it needs it (like some old vhs tapes). In the case with Doctor Butcher I knew I would need to do more than just color correct so I opted to record with the raw image and work with it on the pc.

if any of you ever saw or owned the DR. Butcher vhs tape, the intro with its brighter and almost dull/bland image detailing is pretty much the same and in fact was a bit less detailed than the laserdisc sample I threw up

So at this point I am looking at working with some chroma filters via avi synth

all info so far has been welcomed and appreciated. Just wish they actually released this version of the film and I would not have to go through this mess, but in some way this mess is what makes it fun

[Brad]

So only this extra intro that they slapped on looks washed out, right?

I do also have the Sigma color corrector scc2 device for when I do things on the fly with a recorder deck and if it needs it (like some old vhs tapes). In the case with Doctor Butcher I knew I would need to do more than just color correct so I opted to record with the raw image and work with it on the pc.

You should try the Sigma so that you can adjust the levels without MPEG-2 hindering your progress.

[mazinz]

So only this extra intro that they slapped on looks washed out, right?

I do also have the Sigma color corrector scc2 device for when I do things on the fly with a recorder deck and if it needs it (like some old vhs tapes). In the case with Doctor Butcher I knew I would need to do more than just color correct so I opted to record with the raw image and work with it on the pc.

You should try the Sigma so that you can adjust the levels without MPEG-2 hindering your progress.

Yes it was just that intro. The intro was from another (unreleased) film entirely. Below is a still shot from the regular film. It may be a bit brighter by a degree or two than the actual source video, but you can see it is nowhere as bad as the intro pic I uploaded (though the laser still has wishywashy colors but in 1989 I'm sure it would have been preferred to the vhs version)




ahh ok. Will give the Sima Scc2 device a shot with it then. I still will probably have the vertical color striping but maybe I can get the colors and "gain" up a bit without PC use

Will post the result here (probably in another day or so). If the DVD bonus version was not so damaged I could probably work with re-adjusting the coloring. It would take me forever to cleanup the damage using the clone option in Photoshop (to go frame by frame), unless a similar and possibly quicker filter like Clone exist for Sony Vegas?

[mazinz]

Ok I used composite cables and had my work flow as laserdisc player-TBC-Color corrector- jvc recorder

It did help quite a bit. I still saw the vertical color bands but they were not as apparent as before

The clip still needs work. Below is a link for the full vob(mpg) sample. It is about 200megs in size. As the saying goes garbage in garbage out, but at least it is somewhat better than the original raw clip I threw up here

https://www.box.com/shared/static/fgykhrphprvda0d85qj7.rar