3D video and dvds?

[thorthemighty]

I am considering buying a 3d tv but will only do so if I can burn 3d blu ray rips onto normal dvd blanks. My hope is that these dvds can be played by a blu ray player with the picture still being 3d.
I think it sounds unlikely but if it could be done, it would save a bit of cash having not to fork out a bluray burner and using dvds instead of bluray blanks.

[aedipuss]

if you convert the blurays to mkv/mp4 in half sbs or ou then they could be fit to a dvdr. the bitrate would be kind of low and quality would suffer. my 3d bluray rips average about 10GB, none would fit on a dvdr but some would fit on a dvdr-dl.

i'd advise getting a 3d bluray player that's dlna certified and playing your rips over your network from a harddrive.

[jman98]

Give up this idea or you will almost certainly be completely disappointed.

Many ripping programs have problems ripping 3D BluRay discs. The only ones that can do it correctly are expensive.

Conversion is very complicated and time consuming and there are always chances that your TV will have problems with them. Plus DVD players do not understand the common 3D BluRay formats, so if you do a conversion and try to play it on a DVD player, there is always a chance that the player will not send the video correctly to the TV. You will really and truly have to also buy a 3D BluRay player to have any chance of your conversions working unless your TV supports playing files via USB, but that has it's own set of problems.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but with 9 posts and 10+ years of membership, my money is on the idea that you don't have the expertise needed to do this or to deal with problems if they come up. I'm not trying to insult you, but you need to understand that more likely that not you're going to have problems if you try it.

[thorthemighty]

I admit I have not really looked into the bluray format as I was perfectly happy with DVD but I could potentially be updating my TV and am in 2 minds whether to go for a 3d one. This is only if I could get hold of 3d films cheaply so was entertaining the idea of burning them onto dvds. I am aware that a 3d bluray player is required(it is the burner that I was thinking of avoiding) but it sounds like 3d bluray ripping is not as easy DVD ripping and it will be hard to avoid using bluray blanks.

[Cornucopia]

If you:
1. Want to use DVD (whether SL or DL), and
2. Want 3D

You must be OK:
1. Accepting quality loss
2. Manually switching on your TV's 3D to SbS or T/B

...Then you can do it. I would use DVDFab or 3DBDBuster and convert to SbS or T/B MKV (using h.264 encoding). Then save your file to DVD as a Data disc (not "DVD-Video") and, assuming your BD or DVD player can play MKV files (and if not, do use something that is compatible with your player), it will play it as a 2D SbS (or T/B) video.
Then you turn on the 3D on your TV, setting the choice for whatever layout you chose, and you should be good.

Quality will be not so good. You will have lost:
1. Going from Full Rez to 1/2 rez (either SbS or T/B)
2. Going from ~>40MB size to either 4.3MB or 7.8MB size, and correspondingly loss of bitrate & quality

You can alleviate your bitrate losses' re-compression artifacts by lowering the rez from HD to SD, but that will also lose "Depth Resolution" as well. That's what happens with those compromises if you intend to skimp on your formats.

Scott

<edit>You can EASILY get a BD player with 3D for little more than the cost of getting a regular BD player. And you can get 3DBDs for $19.99USD (maybe even $14.99) if you get them during specials. I now have ~14 3DBDs, in addition to my ~50 2D BDs and ~400 DVDs. Not a major investment beyond what I was doing.

3DBD ripping is NOT as easy as either 2D BD ripping or DVD ripping. Depends on how often your intend to watch them...

[fritzi93]

You need to rethink this. Let's start with the misapprehensions:

1) Currently many (most?) mid tier and better TVs are 3D capable anyway. So if you're determined to exclude any 3D TVs from consideration if your plan is unfeasible, you'll be excluding a lot of possibilities.

2) You can't just backup and re-encode 3D to BD25 in the way you're probably thinking. The only reasonably easy and reliable way to back one up is ISO read, ISO write to double-layer blank (BD50). And BD50s are pricey.

3) As already mentioned, you *can* re-encode to T/B or SBS, which cuts resolution in half. Or more precisely, uses the 1080 resolution to include both right and left views. And you want to cut resolution even more severely by going down to DVD-Video resolution? Honestly, that's not going to look good at all. I have a fair number of O/U and SBS captures in 1080i that look...okay, but not nearly as good as full 3D Blu-Ray.

4) Again, as mentioned, 3D BD standalones are not much more expensive than 2D only players.

-------

Then there's the question: why back up 3D Blu-Rays at all? I have 13 of them, with The Hobbit on order. And only one 3D TV to watch them on. Really, what's the point?

[thorthemighty]

If you:
assuming your BD or DVD player can play MKV files (and if not, do use something that is compatible with your player), it will play it as a 2D SbS (or T/B) video.
Then you turn on the 3D on your TV, setting the choice for whatever layout you chose, and you should be good.

So are you saying that if the dvd player will be output a 2d(sbs or t/b) video which a 3d tv can eventually display in 3D?
Also you say that if my dvd player is not capable of playing mkv then to convert to a format that it does support; does that mean the video does not have to be mkv in the first place or can sbs or t/b videos only be produced as mkv files which is why you have to start with that format?
If it is indeed possible to get 3d out of a dvd player then that would be ideal but I would have no qualms about buying a 3d enabled bluray player if required.

Finally, I have no problems with loss of resolution as my current tv is a 15 year old 16 inch crt and I am more than happy with the picture it produces. It is only because the tv is starting to fail that I have been looking around for a replacement and have noticed 3d tvs.

[Cornucopia]

If you:
assuming your BD or DVD player can play MKV files (and if not, do use something that is compatible with your player), it will play it as a 2D SbS (or T/B) video.
Then you turn on the 3D on your TV, setting the choice for whatever layout you chose, and you should be good.

So are you saying that if the dvd player will be output a 2d(sbs or t/b) video which a 3d tv can eventually display in 3D?

Yes.

Also you say that if my dvd player is not capable of playing mkv then to convert to a format that it does support; does that mean the video does not have to be mkv in the first place

Yes.

... or can sbs or t/b videos only be produced as mkv files which is why you have to start with that format?

No.

If it is indeed possible to get 3d out of a dvd player then that would be ideal but I would have no qualms about buying a 3d enabled bluray player if required.

I think I've already pretty clearly stated that downrezzing, anamorphically squashing, bitrate reducing & re-encoding would be FAR from ideal.

Finally, I have no problems with loss of resolution as my current tv is a 15 year old 16 inch crt and I am more than happy with the picture it produces. It is only because the tv is starting to fail that I have been looking around for a replacement and have noticed 3d tvs.

You have no problems with it because you aren't really aware of what you've been missing. Once you see what a HDTV can put out compared to an SDTV, you will start noticing the deficiencies. And then you'll (probably) not be satisfied with your current trajectory intentions.

Scott

[addu]

So at last i had completed my mission of having complete one3d hd episode or movie in one dvd-9 as a 3dbd format which too is backward compatible as 2dbd. And in excellent quality.

[thorthemighty]

Cornucopia, My brother has a 3d tv and I struggled to see a significant difference. I guess if my crt was the same size as his tv(50 inches) then it would have become obvious but I am quite satisfied with the small screen I have. If I was honest the only real difference I could detect was that HD pictures are brighter. It is the 3d technology that is of far more interest to me and if a normal dvd player can output true 3d(whatever the quality) then I may have to read up on it with all the info you have given me so far.

[Cornucopia]

Sorry to be blunt, but this kind of response makes me question your eyesight.

Even a properly maintained & calibrated professional CRT would show some signs of convergence or focus problems after 15 years. A side-by-side comparison with a (properly adjusted & calibrated) new HDTV should be strikingly & clearly in favor of the new HDTV. Color purity, contrast ratio (esp. if using plasma), to say nothing of sharpness. The one thing you mentioned, brightness, shouldn't really be that different (if both devices were calibrated).

"3D capability" per se, is also, in some ways UNRELATED to the storage technology. Particularly if you aren't worried about quality. Anaglyph is a "true 3D" technology that is fully compatible with EVERY 2D video device on the market (assuming they do color). The common SbS or T/B layout formats are also backwards-compatible (aka usable ON ANY DEVICE). This includes VHS!

However: The 2D quality is paramount to the a perception of the 3D depth.* Since the whole mechanism of using 2 horizontally-displaced viewpoints to generate the 3D perspective in one's brain relies on the horizontal disparity, it is a fundamental axiom that the horizontal resolution is directly proportional to the depth resolution. This is one reason why 3D didn't take off earlier: playback devices weren't able to support the HD quality necessary to generate sufficiently plausible depth impressions. The worse your 2D resolution gets, the more any visible depth becomes more like cardboard cutouts. One reason that I'm still excited about UHD TV's: they'll automatically improve the 3D depth perception (when used in 3D mode).

So it comes down to: how serious are you really about 3D? Because this idea of using SbS layout of titles re-encoded at much lower bitrate to fit on DVDs makes both the 2D resolution and the 3D depth resolution a joke. I certainly wouldn't invest in the additional, higher-priced hardware if you can't really even see a difference.

Scott

*<edit>It's kind of like Pizza. Even crappy pizza is still Pizza! (and I wouldn't turn it down) But Great Pizza is to die for!
BTW, I've heard this principle said about some other item, but decorum keeps me from saying in this forum what that is.

[addu]

Well said and done, scott. U didn't read my lines.

[Cornucopia]

I did, addu, I just didn't have time to really go into it.

You're being a little secretive, which most don't particularly respect here. Why not share the info?

I'm assuming that you did a 3DBD Main-movie Rip&Convert to MKV or some similar format, then loaded the 2views into either Vegas or PowerDirector and re-authored a new 3DBD. It's not surprising that your (reduced bitrate) 3DBD is also 2D-compatible: MOST ARE. Some may have a flag that tells it NOT to be listed as 2D compatible, but under the hood they are anyway.
However, unless you have a very short episode/movie, the reduced bitrate (and the Full3DHD->SbS->Full3DHD resize) is going to be wreaking havoc with your picture quality, by generating additional bad encoding artifacts.

Scott

[thorthemighty]

So it comes down to: how serious are you really about 3D? Because this idea of using SbS layout of titles re-encoded at much lower bitrate to fit on DVDs makes both the 2D resolution and the 3D depth resolution a joke. I certainly wouldn't invest in the additional, higher-priced hardware if you can't really even see a difference.

Ok HD is sharper but not enough for me dump my CRT until it started to fail. I'm just lucky that I find the old technology perfectly adequate despite seeing HD and SD tvs side by side in showrooms.
However if downgrading the video affects the 3d quality as you are stating in the above quote then that is a different matter and does throw a spanner in the works for my plan to use 3d dvd.

[addu]

@Scott....The picture quality is as superior as the original if the source is taken as original for conversions process. One whole movie like titanic can be in one 3dbd dvd-9 or 3 of such movies can be in 3dbd-25 with dolby digital plus 7.1 channel as their audios. And all are backward compatible to 2d bluray players also. The whole process is little tedious and time consuming but not for those who are already involved with it. No use of softwares like vegas and powerdirector were involved in making of those disc. I hope people guess and start to work on it for their own well being.

[Cornucopia]

@addu, you state 3 features:

1. Picture quality as good as 3DBD (aka MVC) original
2. Compatible with 3DBD & 2DBD spec (aka using MVC)
3. Fits on smaller BD-25 or DVD-9/DVD-5 size using same or more length of time

To this I say, "BULLSHIT!"

I am not trying to be cocky, presumptive, arrogant, or immodest when I say that, of all the posters on this and similar forums regarding Stereo3D, I know the most about this subject. And not without reason: I have been seriously involved in stereo3D research, invention & production since 2003 (Aug. 12, 2003 on this site - you can look it up).

So when I say that the equation is finite and one cannot pull a rabbit out of a hat using pixie dust, it's true. These are the facts:
1. Not counting the future h.265 MV profiles or something else not even decided, MVC is already THE MOST EFFICIENT general-purpose codec for stereo3D.
2. The only codec that is compatible with 3DBD is the MVC codec (which is the basis for it). And the incorporated hard links are already the best way of maintaining compatibility while minimizing the size.
3. A codec doesn't automatically get "extra breathing room". Given any particular title and any particular codec implementation, the FILESIZE = BITRATE * RUNTIME equation is absolute. If you lower one side (filesize), you MUST lower the other side (bitrate).
And since the current implementation of titles on 3DBD is already the most efficient example of stereo3d given that level of quality, it follows that any reduction of bitrate creates a corresponding reduction in quality. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot get something from nothing.

So, you must be either delusional or you are lying and attempting chicanery. I know what softwares (both for professional producers and for general consumers) are available that allow MVC encoding & 3DBD authoring. No one implementation has any special magic wand compared to any of the others (some just have more features than others). To get compatible 3DBD, one must use one of those softwares and regardless of which one is used, 3DBD follows certain rules which you cannot just ignore.

I'm not surprised. I saw how you were beginning to phrase your statements using the age-old method of "don't really explain anything that can be cross-examined" and noticed how you don't actually give any before & after examples of work for people to compare themselves, just teases & promotions. This leaves a "mystique" of some little-known wizardry on your part (if they are to believe you). But if you really knew how to do what you were saying - you would probably already be selling the process.

I gave you props recently when you demonstrated the MK3D example file that included the proper coding to allow certain players to automatically engage 3D mode, but you shouldn't bank on that too much. That file in question still only used AVC, it still only had Half-HD SbS layout, and used only ~1/5 - 1/8 the bitrate, so it cleary was not as good (both in resolution & in artifacts) as the original 3DBD. As I've said before: just because a file/stream engages 3D automatically on the TV doesn't mean the source file must be using HDMI FramePacking (which is the ONLY way to get FullHD3D quality from source to TV). It is very possible to "cheat" by incorporating the other HDMI SEI messages that also engage auto 3D (including SbS or T/B or Interleaved), yet all those start with files/streams that are NOT the FullHD3D.

So cut out the Snake Oil salesmanship. This site is for helping video enthusiasts using clear, methodologically sound & scientifically repeatable processes that are OPEN.

Scott

[addu]

But Sir Here my files are in 3d mvc encoded and they are all backward compatible and that's too in full hd resolutions. I know all those profiles associated with it.

[Cornucopia]

Where?! I see no link.
Plus again, without originals to compare with, how would we know they're the same quality, or even same resolution?

Scott

[addu]

Sorry Scott That's little difficult plus u r very far in usa and i m in india, i could have given u a sample collection of movie which i will not name because of copyright problem on a dvd-9 disc. 3dbd full hd 1080p backward compatible to play in 2dbd bluray players with multichannel dolby digital audio. a menu and a chapter menu with introduction video. All is possible in this world if u so desire.

[Cornucopia]

I rest my case.