Sony Handycam Mini-DV - Decent sound for rock concerts?

[sonicdeth]

I don't really know much about camcorders, but a friend of mine is letting me borrow hers so that I can film a couple of rock concerts I'm attending. The camera is a Sony Handycam DCR-HC52 (mini-dv). I've seen videos that have been shot on it and I am definitely satisfied with the video quality. My only concern is the sound - I know this cam doesn't have a place to plug in external audio, and I'm not sure just how good the built-in mic is on this camera..... Will the recorded sound be very muffled from a loud rock concert? As a side note, I do have a Sony Hi-MD recorder that gets great sound from when I've recorded shows on it... how hard would it be to splice in the audio recorded from that to the video I record from the Sony Hanycam? Any info would be greatly appreciated as the first concert is this Friday night! Thanks very much.

[turk690]

The main problem with mini-DV camcorders like that HC52 & its ilk (I have an older HC48) with regards to audio is this: to cover the extremes of dynamic range in possible scenarios of video taking, massive automatic gain control (AGC) is applied when recording. Add to this the use of omni-directional mics and the results are as unpredictable if not hodge-podge. In a concert, what you'd probably pick up best is the crowd noise around you, with bits and pieces of the performers at times (in fact when I'm using the HC48 in a multi-cam setup, the applause track comes from what it records). Between quieter passages and very loud sounds, the AGC might even introduce pumping (the background noise rising and falling as it rides the constantly changing gain). This AGC can't be disabled, and so as a concession, in later AVCHD camcorders, Sony mercifully adds a choice, though you wouldn't know it from Sony's definitions (AGC applied default setting is "normal level" and no AGC with about -20dB att is "low level"). Short of connecting to the front of house, the best bet would be to use a dedicated audio recorder (like a Zoom H2n or H4, don't know about that Sony MD; it's all about the mics), mounted away from the stage (a balcony would be ideal) center. The directional mics in a recorder like these plus it can be put away from a crowd and recording levels precisely set can get good audio. Your next problem would be to edit what you've recorded, where there will always be a chance the captured audio gradually becomes out-of-sync with the video.... But hey 1st things 1st, no?

[bigass]

Since both the MD recorder and camcorder are digital, I don't expect you'd get any significant drift when trying to match them up later. If you're seriously satisfied with your MD setup for sound, I'd say get the video you like and marry them in post. If you've been active in bootlegging concerts in the past, you're probably aware that there's a sizable community out there that makes a great big hobby out of getting the best out of their recordings. They might have further insight for you.

[turk690]

Since both the MD recorder and camcorder are digital, I don't expect you'd get any significant drift when trying to match them up later.

That's why there is what is known as house sync in professional circles where all audio and video devices have the same exact absolute timecode and no-one misses a beat. But in less hallowed settings with a disparate array of devices stand-alone that have no connection to one another, drift is the order of the day. For example, I normally record with a Zoom R16; I pair it with video taken by a Canon XA10 and Sony CX12. After I have laid down the audio tracks recorded by the R16 in Premiere, there is a difference of anywhere from 5 to 10 frames for a program that was about 2hrs long or so (audio is longer than video). Fortunately both camcorders record in chunks of about 15mins each, which I drag in sync along the timeline to match the R16 audio. IMO drift only becomes noticeable when audio and video are apart by more than 3 frames; in each 15min chunk (*.m2ts file) max drift is about 1 or 2 frames. No fancy audio stretching and all that shit required still.

[bigass]

If you're putting a bit of love into the post-production, correcting for drift should not be a problem. If you're shooting a concert, you'll have snare drum hits to match transients. Five to ten frames over a two-hour production...even that sounds like a lot, but practically, it's not a ton. Just edit in reasonable chunks and re-sync as you go along....you should be just fine.
Considering you'll probably be shooting from some distance away, it'll take a decent amount of 'drift' to be any impediment to enjoyment.

And, hey, if you're feeling ambitious and have some mixing chpos, having multiple audio sources could provide an opportunity to do a really interesting mix!

[sonicdeth]

Thanks for the info guys. Well this Friday is sort of a test run for this Sony Handycam - I'm just going to see what kind of sound the built-in mic gets exactly. I will be getting separate audio with my Sony Hi-Md recorder though - have a stereo external mic that I use with that and it gets great sound. So the test run this Friday, then the big show will be not until the end of September. Also, I've never done it before - just how hard is it going to be to splice in the separate audio? I don't know the first thing about it. I just have the ability to transfer the mini-DV tape to a DVD, then I can rip that onto my computer. The external audio I can put onto a cd, then I guess just extract that all as 1 long track. How would I even go about adding the external audio to my video? - what's the easiest possible way to do this?

[bigass]

If it were me, I'd do the following:

- transfer your video via firewire to your computer in its original form. You'll get an AVI file or series of them
- transfer your audio from your MD machine. Last time I used MD, there was no way to get a digital-to-digital transfer from the disc other than through an optical connection. If times have changed and you can rip from the MD to WAV via USB, do that
- or, if you have to do a real-time transfer, playing on the MD recorder and recording via the line-in on your sound interface, go ahead. You might as well record at 16-bit, 48kHz.
- for the sake of file management, put these files in one folder along with your editing project

I don't know what non-linear editor you use - I use Sony Vegas.

- import the AVI(s) from the camcorder; that'll create one video and one audio track
- add another audio track and import your audio
- you'll have to eyeball this a little bit -- see if you can match up the wav from your MD with the audio track from the camcorder. Depending on the fidelity of the recording, you might be able to *see* where they match. Otherwise, do it by ear
- this may involve muting one audio track or the other
- then, find a clear transient -- like a snare drum hit -- that you can *see* the drummer strike, and *see* the spike on the audio track
- mute the audio from the camcorder -- turn it right off
- then, match that snare hit in the picture with the one on your imported audio track. They should now be locked in time
- to ease the rest of your editing, group the video and your new audio together -- in Vegas, if memory serves correctly, that's selecting both items and hitting 'g' for group. someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.
- you can probably ungroup ('u') the original audio track from the mix and erase it... and erase that whole track...since you're going to want to work with the new one anyway
- at this point, with the new soundtrack married to the video, you'll be editing as normal!

I hope I got that right. I don't edit all that often, but that's how I recall doing it. It comes down to finding a visual reference to match the sound you're hearing.....as opposed to matching sound-for-sound with the original track, since you're probably some distance from the stage...it'll sound more like a soundboard recording if your sync is from, say, a drum hit.

[sonicdeth]

I'm using Ubuntu (linux) and I believe they do have video capture programs out there that are rated well. The MD now does have the ability to rip to computer as wav via usb, so I could to that. But I'm glad you mentioned just doing a real time recording via line-in (never thought of that!), because the software for the MD was always a little hairy, so I think a line-in real time recording may be the safe way to do it. - The program Audacity can do this correct?

I'm trying to think of the simplest way to do this, and to be honest I have minimal experience with vid editing software (very minimal). I know that AVIDEMUX I should be able to sync in separate audio - I think you can adjust it plus or minus in milliseconds. And then if I succeed at the separate audio sync to the video, then I want to make the AVI into a full DVD with some basic menus, and I hear that Devede is a decent program that can accomplish this.

-for when I film the show and get the separate audio from the MD recorder - I guess I should just do my best to hit record on the Vid camera, as well as record on the Hi-MD recorder at the same exact time or as close as I can get it, so this will make the syncing process in AVIDEMUX a little easier since they're lined up fairly well to begin with?

[bigass]

Audacity can surely record your line-in, yup.

As for the rest -- good luck. You'll be doing it blind, but not deaf. Not how I would approach it, but if it works for you, I wouldn't dare try to talk you out of it.

[Cornucopia]

Sure hope you're legally allowed to do this...
(Most concerts won't let you)

Scott

[sonicdeth]

Sound on the cam itself actually turned out a lot better than I thought, but I got my external audio anyway. Well, this was a lot easier than I thought. I captured the video onto my computer via firewire using a program called "Kino." The software for the HI-MD recorder is terrible, so I just captured the audio in real time via line-in with Audacity. I imported both into a basic video editor called "Openshot," and was able to successfully sync up my sound with the video! I made a DVD with menu on a program called "Devede." This whole thing turned out waaaay better than I thought it would, now I have a nice DVD of this show and I got some great practice in. I think I'm going to really enjoy video editing! Oh and when I started recording the show I did a single clap in front of the camera, this helped TREMEDOUSLY when it came time to try and sync it up!

[bigass]

Congrats! Glad it worked out.

Yup, whenever I've done video with separate sync sound, I've had the subject clap once on camera to sync later... I didn't mention it here, because I figured the distance between the stage/speakers and your recording gear would make syncing to something on stage a better target than something closer... but I'm glad you're enjoying it. Keep rockin'!

[turk690]

Oh and when I started recording the show I did a single clap in front of the camera, this helped TREMEDOUSLY when it came time to try and sync it up!

Good that clap helped sync it up and it seems you didn't have problems for the entire concert. How long was the concert? I'm asking because (with the equipment I have and the programs I use to capture and edit with) I have never captured any two-hour concert where the audio and video start in perfect sync, and stayed in perfect sync through the entire duration. Is this the case with yours? Did you actually watch and listen to the entire concert and inspected closely if it was still in sync at the middle and at the end? Just saying because for quite some time many years back, I merely sync'd up the start of the event, edited it and merrily made DVDs, only to be shocked as I was told that at the end of the DVD, audio and video were out of sync by as much as a second!

[sonicdeth]

Oh and when I started recording the show I did a single clap in front of the camera, this helped TREMEDOUSLY when it came time to try and sync it up!

Good that clap helped sync it up and it seems you didn't have problems for the entire concert. How long was the concert? I'm asking because (with the equipment I have and the programs I use to capture and edit with) I have never captured any two-hour concert where the audio and video start in perfect sync, and stayed in perfect sync through the entire duration. Is this the case with yours? Did you actually watch and listen to the entire concert and inspected closely if it was still in sync at the middle and at the end? Just saying because for quite some time many years back, I merely sync'd up the start of the event, edited it and merrily made DVDs, only to be shocked as I was told that at the end of the DVD, audio and video were out of sync by as much as a second!

This concert was fairly short, clocking in at just under an hour long. I did inspect it and it stays in sync for the full duration. Thanks for the info. In a couple months I have another concert I am attending, where I will be filming 2 bands - each will play for about an hour or a little longer - so I was thinking of using a couple 60 min. mini-DV tapes in SP mode, then I'm thinking that each set could run slightly over 60 minutes. Even up to 70 minutes. So, I hear that there are 80 minute DV tapes? Think I may purchase a couple of these so that I don't have to worry about switching a tape really quick to get the full set, plus I figure it'll help when it comes to syncing later on. But yeah, this video looks to be in sync throughout the duration. Maybe it's the software you are using? I've read up on the sw I'm using and people rave about how stable it is; Kino (for capturing from cam to PC), then Openshot Video Editor for all the editing etc....

[turk690]

In my experience, separately recording then capturing audio and video for continuous durations 1hr or less do not present much problems. In my case, mostly video is shorter than audio by about 1 frame every 15minutes, so if I were to string together 4 15minute segments then chose to sync in the middle (at the end of the 2nd 15minute clip), audio and video would only at most be out of sync by 2 frames, and this would be at the beginning and end of that 1hr program. It takes more than 4 frames difference before out-of-sync audio and video becomes noticeable. Even if I were to choose to sync right at the start of the 1hr program, at the end the out-of-sync amount will be about 4frames, which, if there are no close-ups anyway, will not really be noticeable.
I've also used something as simple as Kino for capture and Vegas 10 for editing and everything in between, and really, what I'ved observed is out-of-sync is NOT a function of the programs but of the clips (and by implication the recording hardware). Wait till you go towards 2hrs and over programme lengths for the maddening beauty of out-of-sync audio & video to really shine through