Capturing VHS with simultaneous Uprez to 1080p?

[ifshebe]

Hi

I'm working on a VHS based project (PAL) for a music video.

I'm shooting VHS and will capture, probably on PC. At some point in the chain the project will end up an HD resolution, probably 1080P.

I read somewhere rather than capture at SD and then use software (e.g. MPGStreamclip) to uprez the SD files, I should capture and uprez simultaneously. Apparently Matrox MX02 Mini might be a good solution, among other boxes.

I will be colour grading so I want to preserve as much colour depth as losslessly as possible.

Does anyone have any experience with this capture route? Specifically with MX02 Mini to a PC?

I would probably be using a Panny HS1000 SVHS with TBC to play out of into the Matrox or other similar card.

Thanks so much !

[poisondeathray]

I read somewhere rather than capture at SD and then use software (e.g. MPGStreamclip) to uprez the SD files, I should capture and uprez simultaneously. Apparently Matrox MX02 Mini might be a good solution, among other boxes.

What was the rationale behind that? Seems like many more negatives than positives. (Also MPEGStreamclip is not known for it's upscaling "prowess" - it's not really considered upscaling software)

Unless by "other boxes" you meant Snell & Wilcox Box $$$



Curious about the "I'm shooting VHS" - this implies that you haven't shot yet and actually chose to use VHS for the music vid? Any reason for that instead of using a modern HD camera?

[Hoser Rob]

I agree 100%. Why not just shoot in HD to begin with? You could get one for less than what the inevitable repair bill on old VHS gear will be.

Upsizing isn't going to improve quality. It'll make it worse, as will any reencoding. Unless you want bad quality, which is possible.

[hech54]

I'm glad someone else was thinking the same thing....the OP is off to a ridiculous start.

[dragonkeeper]

Hi
I'm shooting VHS and will capture, probably on PC. At some point in the chain the project will end up an HD resolution, probably 1080P.

Why? VHS is a terrible medium to capture with it all likelihood it is the absolute worst. For an upscale to look its best you need to have as much information as possible in your SD video. (ie color, scan lines, etc) VHS fall short of the SD specification.

I read somewhere rather than capture at SD and then use software (e.g. MPGStreamclip) to uprez the SD files, I should capture and uprez simultaneously. Apparently Matrox MX02 Mini might be a good solution, among other boxes.

I would not agree with this at all. I would rather have the original source to work with, what if your not happy with the job done by the upscaler. With this method your kinda stuck but at least with the original unaltered source you can tweak and play with it to you hears content. Why not capture to HD to begin with?

[ifshebe]

Well, it's kind of an experimental thing but yes, the look of VHS is what we want. The old cameras shoot footage that looks a certain way (even more so if you go with a tube camera)... the low resolution, the analog rather than digital artefacts and distortions and limitations of the form, all of that is good for this project. It's a retro look.

It needs to end up HD for a number of reasons -- not least of which, streaming stuff on the internet in PAL resolution is basically impossible with Vimeo /Youtube - you're forced to go down to 480P and hence you lose a chunk of the already meagre 720x568 PAL signal. This is a stupid legacy thing but the only real workaround is to uprez the Pal to 720 or 1080. I've done it, it looks pretty good, albeit intentionally retro and degraded.

When I last did this we did post at SD, graded at SD, then uprezzed the result. I'm not sure that was the best way round, though. If you're colour grading, you might as well have as much resolution as you'll end up with at that stage, not uprez later. For example if you introduce a vignette or other colour effect, you might as well have that affecting the 'invented' pixels for a smoother effect instead of just the original PAL ones.

So I want to think about uprezzzing the rushes from the off. Yes, if need be i could go the pro route through an Alchemist. I'm just wondering whether there's a box that allows me to do this all at home to pretty much the same standard, and save myself some money. I'm sure I read on some forum somewhere about Mx02 and also the Kona card, but i can't find it anymore.

Failing that I guess it would be good to know which card or outboard box is currently recommended for SD capture to a relatively lossless codec from a VHS or SVHS source.

Thanks

[poisondeathray]

Well, it's kind of an experimental thing but yes, the look of VHS is what we want. The old cameras shoot footage that looks a certain way (even more so if you go with a tube camera)... the low resolution, the analog rather than digital artefacts and distortions and limitations of the form, all of that is good for this project. It's a retro look.

It needs to end up HD for a number of reasons -- not least of which, streaming stuff on the internet in PAL resolution is basically impossible with Vimeo /Youtube - you're forced to go down to 480P and hence you lose a chunk of the already meagre 720x568 PAL signal. This is a stupid legacy thing but the only real workaround is to uprez the Pal to 720 or 1080. I've done it, it looks pretty good, albeit intentionally retro and degraded.

When I last did this we did post at SD, graded at SD, then uprezzed the result. I'm not sure that was the best way round, though. If you're colour grading, you might as well have as much resolution as you'll end up with at that stage, not uprez later. For example if you introduce a vignette or other colour effect, you might as well have that affecting the 'invented' pixels for a smoother effect instead of just the original PAL ones.

So I want to think about uprezzzing the rushes from the off. Yes, if need be i could go the pro route through an Alchemist. I'm just wondering whether there's a box that allows me to do this all at home to pretty much the same standard, and save myself some money. I'm sure I read on some forum somewhere about Mx02 and also the Kona card, but i can't find it anymore.

Failing that I guess it would be good to know which card or outboard box is currently recommended for SD capture to a relatively lossless codec from a VHS or SVHS source.

Thanks

Did you consider shooting in HD then achieving the look and degradation in post? The basic premise is "it's easier to go down than up"

You talk about grading - but did you consider the chroma resolution of VHS? It's abysmal. (All the more reason to do the aquisition in HD, and the project in HD) .

Why even the emphasis on upscaling? Why even bother with spending money on an external upscaler? Your software can just enlarge it since you want a degraded look anyway. I doubt this matrox card does anything other than a bicubic or bilinear scaling . Unless we're talking about expensive $$ hardware boxes - external methods generally produce lower quality than dedicated software upscalers, because they are meant for realtime processing, they trade off quality for speed . Not even a S&W box can come close to results of even a cheap consumer $200 HD cam

[manono]

It needs to end up HD for a number of reasons -- not least of which, streaming stuff on the internet in PAL resolution is basically impossible with Vimeo /Youtube - you're forced to go down to 480P and hence you lose a chunk of the already meagre 720x568 PAL signal.

That's not true since the equivalent resolution of an SVHS tape isn't even close to720x568. That's only your capture resolution (720x576?). And that's if you're using SVHS tapes, and I think you stated you'll be using regular VHS tapes. Of course, regular VHS tapes will create videos of an even lower effective resolution (something around 330x480). YouTube or Vimeo's 480p will be fine (although YouTube's reencoding practices may leave something to be desired). You'll get something like 38% of your PAL 720x576 capture resolution.

[2Bdecided]

If you really want retro, don't just shoot it on VHS - make a VHS>VHS copy and then digitise the copy. For maximum impact, make a VHS copy of the VHS copy, and repeat until there's barely any picture left. Try kicking the machine while it's copying.

Your choice of upscalling is pretty much irrelevant, given the source - worse might even be more appropriate for the task in hand - but remember all vintage video cameras shoot interlaced, and you'll want progressive for the web - so it won't actually look like a vintage video, whatever you do, because you'll destroy the smooth motion by converting from 50i to 25p (you can't upload 50p to YouTube/vimeo/etc).

Cheers,
David.

[dragonkeeper]

David is correct. Albiet he was exaggerating a bit, on achieving the retro look. Once you convert the video for uploading to theweb you will lose the interlacing this is a huge part of the retro look. You would be better of shouting in HD then add a bit of jitter, some grain, de-saturate the colors and turn down the contrast to get a retro look.