VHS/Hi8 to digital using ADVC110. Some questions.

[Jull]

Hi. I am a noob, but have done my homework and read this forum extensively, because I plan to transfer a few dozen VHS tapes from the 80s and 90s to my hard-drive. Initially I was set on buying an ATI AIW card thinking I would also be purchasing a new new desktop computer, but due to various issues I haven't been able to schedule this investment this year. As a consequence I went for the more "portable" option, i.e. a Canopus ADVC-110 to go with my laptop. I am aware of the limitations of my system and I do plan to upgrade to a desktop configuration in the future, but this will have to do for now.

My system is:

Panasonic NV-HS 880 (not ideal, as it has no TBC) / various handheld video-cameras -> S-video -> ADVC-110 on external power -> 4p firewire -> Dell XPS 1530 (I know the laptop concept isn't ideal either) -> WinDV -> Adobe Premiere CS4 + trial Neat video plugin for editing -> final file (not interested in storage on DVD).
I have also ordered an AVT-8710 TBC for the older or more damaged tapes.

1. The first question relates to the capture quality. Everything that comes off the VCR is very grainy (an example can be seen here: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/196/72731930.jpg/ ). I have verified that the VCR is responsible for this by capturing from a stand-alone DVD (which looks fine) and also by plugging in an oldschool CATV cable through the VCR and recording as from a TV-tuner. So:

1a. Is this normal for any VCR source or should I be looking for a different VCR?

1b. Neat Video does a great job at removing this grain, but does this come at the cost of lost video information? I can't really tell and I need to know before purchasing it. Example here: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/15/96854156.jpg/.

1c. Will the stand alone TBC solve this? My guess is "not", but I'm no expert.


2. I'm capturing PAL DV, at a resolution of 720 x 576 and 25 fps (obviously). I know the general rule for Adobe Premiere (and for video editing in general) is to have the project settings and export settings the same as the original video, when possible.

2a. What codec do you suggest, given that I will be storing these files on external hard-drives, rather than on discs? H.264 is very tempting because of the relatively low file-size it generates, but I can't get any clear answer as to the difference in quality (if noticeable) as compared to MPEG2.

2b. What bitrate do you suggest? I never actually got my head around bitrate settings, so any advice would be very much appreciated.

2c. Should I convert videos to DV Widescreen when encoding? Oddly I can't see any difference in Windows Media Player between what should be original 4:3 (as recorded by Canopus) and 16:9 (encoded by Premiere).


Sorry for the text wall and thanks for any suggestions you may have.

[usually_quiet]

I can't answer all your questions, but I can answer two. The best format for archiving your most important recordings is the format the ADVC100 uses, DV, although the files will be large. That way if you ever decide you need to have them in a different format for some reason, you will have your original captured footage available. Next best would be DVD-compliant MPEG-2, but not for anything you really care about because you have already lost some quality due to MPEG-2 being more highly compressed than DV. DivX, Xvid, and H.264 are fine as end formats but not desirable for archiving. They will be harder to edit and will loose the most quality if converted to another codec.

I recommend that you don't convert to widescreen. If you don't want pillarbox bars you have to crop some of the picture. Adding pillarbox bars is a waste of time. Normally your TV will add them automatically.

As far as the All-In-Wonder cards, the really good ones are all AGP cards, but motherboards wilth AGP slots have not been readily available new for several years. There may be old stock around or some specialty manufacturers still making them, but other components on the board won't be the latest and greatest either.

[edDV]

...
1. The first question relates to the capture quality. Everything that comes off the VCR is very grainy (an example can be seen here: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/196/72731930.jpg/ ). I have verified that the VCR is responsible for this by capturing from a stand-alone DVD (which looks fine) and also by plugging in an oldschool CATV cable through the VCR and recording as from a TV-tuner. So:

1a. Is this normal for any VCR source or should I be looking for a different VCR?

1b. Neat Video does a great job at removing this grain, but does this come at the cost of lost video information? I can't really tell and I need to know before purchasing it. Example here: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/15/96854156.jpg/.

1c. Will the stand alone TBC solve this? My guess is "not", but I'm no expert.

It may be the noise has been recorded into the tape. Have you tested known good tapes recorded from a clean source?

Or, that VCR is noisy. Compare playback of the same tape on other VCR players.

Don't know about Neat Video. A TBC won't reduce noise (unless it has built in noise reduction).

2. I'm capturing PAL DV, at a resolution of 720 x 576 and 25 fps (obviously). I know the general rule for Adobe Premiere (and for video editing in general) is to have the project settings and export settings the same as the original video, when possible.

2a. What codec do you suggest, given that I will be storing these files on external hard-drives, rather than on discs? H.264 is very tempting because of the relatively low file-size it generates, but I can't get any clear answer as to the difference in quality (if noticeable) as compared to MPEG2.

2b. What bitrate do you suggest? I never actually got my head around bitrate settings, so any advice would be very much appreciated.

2c. Should I convert videos to DV Widescreen when encoding? Oddly I can't see any difference in Windows Media Player between what should be original 4:3 (as recorded by Canopus) and 16:9 (encoded by Premiere).

Codec suggestions in order:

Capture DV25 and archive DV25. This assumes these tapes are important to you (e.g. family videos). This maximizes quality and makes future restoration more likely. File size will be ~12 GB/hr. You may also want to do a more player friendly encode.

MPeg2 (720x576 25i DVD standard @ 6-9 Mbps vbr) This avoids deinterlace and is playable on most anything. This is also the second best archive format.

h.264 (720x576 25i @ 4-9 Mbps) Interlace h.264 is not well supported at the consumer level but is standard in broadcast. I'm not sure what CS4 offers. Bit rate needs to be kept high because of the noisy non-timebase corrected source.

h.264 (720x576 25p or lower for distribution to mobile players or Youtube only) This will require the dreaded deinterlace which will lower quality. Noise reduction will be necessary to allow low bit rates. Quality will suffer.

Exception: Progressive source (e.g. film sped to 25p then broadcast 25i) These can be encoded progressive.

[edDV]

As far as the All-In-Wonder cards, the really good ones are all AGP cards, but motherboards wilth AGP slots have not been readily available new for several years. There may be old stock around or some specialty manufacturers still making them, but other components on the board won't be the latest and greatest either.

Also drivers won't be Vista/Win7 compatible. You may even need to go back to XP SP1 to get the drivers and MMC to work. This project requires a custom built legacy machine.

[Jull]

Thanks both for the replies, this information is pure gold for me.

Have you tested known good tapes recorded from a clean source?

Yes I have and I also tried using the VCR as a TV-tuner by plugging in a CATV cable and then recording. Same problem. On the other hand, I can't see this "grain" when I watch TV (again, using the VCR as a TV tuner), or when I look at the tapes on TV. It just somehow seems to appear when the ADVC takes the signal from the VCR. Same cables.

Or, that VCR is noisy. Compare playback of the same tape on other VCR players.

If only I could source one without having to buy. Nobody I know seems to be keeping them. Even buying will be tricky. Is anyone still making good quality VCRs or am I looking at second hand market only?

To both, thanks for the suggestions regarding compression and encoding. It makes sense and I have thought about leaving the videos as they are (i.e. DV), especially since hard disk space isn't a problem. However given this noise I was describing previously, I feel the need to apply filters in Premiere. Is there a way to apply filters and NOT export/re-encode the video?
Alternatively I guess I could go for the more "player-friendly" encode, as well as leaving a copy of the original, and apply filters to that.

Thanks again.

[edDV]

The ADVC-110 is bi-directional. You can play the captured DV file back to the TV with WinDV. This is a quick way to check for any capture loss.

This works best with a CRT TV but if a progressive HDTV, the TV deinterlace and upscale is a constant for VCR direct source or DV playback to the same TV.

[JVRaines]

On the other hand, I can't see this "grain" when I watch TV (again, using the VCR as a TV tuner), or when I look at the tapes on TV. It just somehow seems to appear when the ADVC takes the signal from the VCR.

Are you judging the noise level by looking at stills? If you are not very experienced, the noise in motion video playing on a monitor is harder to spot than in a still image on your computer screen.

[Jull]

Hi again,

Yes, I am judging the noise level by looking at recorded avi files. The stills slightly amplify the effect for the human eye, but not by much.
That being said I have solved the problem above. The noise was caused by what I think is a faulty chip or wiring relating to the CATV. When the CATV cable was plugged into the VCR it caused this noise to appear both when viewing cable as well as when viewing tapes. When unplugging the CATV and using the VCR to play the tapes the noise is pretty much gone (everything left I can live with).


However I have another problem now. I have purchased an AVT 8710 which I am now using to "correct" signal from various sources. The setup is:

Sony DCR-TRV12E / Panasonic NV HS-880 VCR -> AVT8710 -> ADVC 110 -> Dell XPS 1530 (Win DV on Windows Vista). I'm using high quality cables, for example the connection from the TBC to the ADVC is via a Audioquest S-G S-video cable.

The problem is ever since I have introduced the TBC in the system, WinDV acts funny in that it crashes from time to time. I have figured out it likely crashes whenever I fiddle with the contrast adjustment settings on the TBC (but not brightness or color), but I am not certain of this. It crashes randomly, usually 10-20 minutes into capturing and then I can't restart the program without restarting the computer (codec issues?). Adobe Premiere has similar behaviour, albeit more frame loss.
I have also noticed this appearing on the captured footage:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/534/tbcartifacts.jpg/

I get no such artifacts if capturing directly from the ADVC. Is this a faulty TBC or am I doing something wrong? Thanks.

[JVRaines]

I have nearly the same setup, except I use Sony Video Capture, and I haven't experienced what you're describing. My 8710 is rock solid on the output. Sometimes it introduces visible noise, though not as bad as the still you posted. Also it has a fixed AGC that doesn't handle bad sync very well—I have had to put a proc amp ahead of it on occasion. Finally, using a scope I've found that the 8710's default proc amp settings aren't neutral and have to be tweaked for flat response.

Could your AVT8710 be overheating? That's been a problem for users in the past.

[Jull]

Hi and thanks for the reply. The unit doesn't seem to be overheating, at least not that I can detect by touching it.

I've just recovered from a crash (5 minutes before tape was done). Error details are as follows:


Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: WinDV.exe
Application Version: 1.2.3.0
Application Timestamp: 3ed5ad9c
Fault Module Name: qcap.dll
Fault Module Version: 6.6.6001.18000
Fault Module Timestamp: 4791a744
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 0002124c
OS Version: 6.0.6002.2.2.0.768.2
Locale ID: 2057
Additional Information 1: 9e37
Additional Information 2: 23f86e56e9e0d993e9770a1a525b52dc
Additional Information 3: 79b4
Additional Information 4: b3889e9276c498653fc720ebb8de1dfd


qcap.dll is explained here: http://dll.paretologic.com/detail.php/qcap , but I can't seem to put 2 and 2 together and figure out what is going on. Any suggestions would be appreciated.