How to force a smaller image to use both layers on DVD?

[Billkwando]

I have this image that's 4.5g and when I burn it, my Sony 6 disc player starts freezing when it gets close to the end of the film (concert). I believe the DVD player has problems reading close to the disc edge.

How do I force a layer break so that it distributes the movie between both layers? Using imgburn, it doesn't give me an opportunity cos the image is too small. I also have TMPG Authoring Works (but I'm trying to preserve the original menus).

What program or method would you guys suggest?

As an aside, can you choose which layer burning method you use? This is my first DL DVD and I read that some DLs burn from the outside in, which concerns me cos the whole point is to get the data away from the disc edge. Insights?

[yoda313]

Use a single layer disc instead. Use dvd shrink to make it fit a single layer. It might already - the whole 4.7gb thing makes your 4.5gb iffy if it will fit without transcoding.

Personally I wouldn't waste a dl disc with less than 5 gb. You can shrink at that size and not lose any noticeable quality.

Also I'd plan your encoding to be around 4gb to avoid the edge all together and burn to a single layer disc.

OR better still use better discs like verbatim or taiyo yuden and you shouldn't have as many issues.

[hech54]

I believe the DVD player has problems reading close to the disc edge.

That is a sign of garbage discs. Like Yoda said...use Verbatim or Taiyo Yuden discs.

[Billkwando]

Use a single layer disc instead. Use dvd shrink to make it fit a single layer. It might already - the whole 4.7gb thing makes your 4.5gb iffy if it will fit without transcoding.

Personally I wouldn't waste a dl disc with less than 5 gb. You can shrink at that size and not lose any noticeable quality.

Also I'd plan your encoding to be around 4gb to avoid the edge all together and burn to a single layer disc.

OR better still use better discs like verbatim or taiyo yuden and you shouldn't have as many issues.

Okies, so cutting it down by .7 won't hurt the video/audio? I was really worried about that which is why I didn't shrink it in the first place. Will it hurt it if it was actually DVD Shrink'd previously to get that size (and I'm pretty sure it was, IIRC...it was before I realized my burner was DL)? The concert is about 2 hours and looks incredible, in its current state, which is why I didn't mind wasting a DL disc on it. In fact, I bought a 5-pack for this very project.

For DVD Shrink, should I just set the target size to 4g and let it choose what/how to compress?

Also, (For Science!) is it possible to do what I asked about, even if it isn't advisable?

Also, does anyone know the answer to my question about the 2 different layer burning methods? Being new to the whole DL thing, I'm a little ignorant to the basics and haven't found a clear answer yet.



Edit: Bonus......also you can make fun of me. The DL discs I bought were Riteks, so I'd be lucky if I get a playable disc at all....

[hech54]

Again....if the concert fits on a single layer DVD there is no reason to shrink it....just buy better single layer discs.

[jman98]

I believe the DVD player has problems reading close to the disc edge.

That is a sign of garbage discs. Like Yoda said...use Verbatim or Taiyo Yuden discs.

Actually this problem is known on some older DVD players like the original poster's. I've seen it firsthand and I've seen such players stop at the layer break even on properly made Verbatim DVD+R DL discs. I know of no solution that enables such a player to fullly play any consumer burned DL discs.

Taiyo Yuden DL discs are difficult to find and are only available as imports from Japan. They also are only available in the somewhat less compatible DVD-R DL format.

[Billkwando]

I believe the DVD player has problems reading close to the disc edge.

That is a sign of garbage discs. Like Yoda said...use Verbatim or Taiyo Yuden discs.

Actually this problem is known on some older DVD players like the original poster's. I've seen it firsthand and I've seen such players stop at the layer break even on properly made Verbatim DVD+R DL discs. I know of no solution that enables such a player to fullly play any consumer burned DL discs.

Taiyo Yuden DL discs are difficult to find and are only available as imports from Japan. They also are only available in the somewhat less compatible DVD-R DL format.

Just to clarify, my problem was with single layer discs, and I was hoping that evenly distributing the content across both layers would keep it away from the edges. Unfortunately, nobody's had a response on how practical that would've been, had I been able to pull it off.

Does the media determine which way it burns the layers (Parallel Track Path (PTP), or Opposite Track Path (OTP)?

[yoda313]

I was hoping that evenly distributing the content across both layers would keep it away from the edges.

Do you mean putting two full single layer dvds onto a dual layer disc? Is that what you were trying to do?

[Billkwando]

I was hoping that evenly distributing the content across both layers would keep it away from the edges.

Do you mean putting two full single layer dvds onto a dual layer disc? Is that what you were trying to do?

No, I was trying to take a 4.5 gig disc, and put 2 gigs or so on one layer, and 2 or so on the other....this being to keep the content away from the edge of the disc, where I theorized that my player had a hard time reading it.

[yoda313]

I don't think thats technically possible. I'm no expert on that however. But I don't think it can hop and skip from one layer to the other the way you want it to. I think it can only do that linearly from point a to point b in a track - not hop and skip from the end of one layer to another spot on another layer. It only needs to do that if its larger than one layer.

Personally you have three options I can think of:

Shrink it down to 4gigs or so and you'll probably be shy enough from the first layer to not be a problem

or

Try a different dl disc.

or

Do what we've been suggesting and only use single layer discs for material that can fit on a single layer disc. You can still under encode to avoid the edges.

Lastly try a different brand of disc too - single layer or dual layer. That can be part of the problem.

[Billkwando]

I don't think thats technically possible. I'm no expert on that however. But I don't think it can hop and skip from one layer to the other the way you want it to. I think it can only do that linearly from point a to point b in a track - not hop and skip from the end of one layer to another spot on another layer. It only needs to do that if its larger than one layer.

Personally you have three options I can think of:

Shrink it down to 4gigs or so and you'll probably be shy enough from the first layer to not be a problem

or

Try a different dl disc.

or

Do what we've been suggesting and only use single layer discs for material that can fit on a single layer disc. You can still under encode to avoid the edges.

Lastly try a different brand of disc too - single layer or dual layer. That can be part of the problem.

Yeah I definitely acknowledge that you guys know what you're talking about. It was just my half baked theory. I'm gonna pick up some single layer verbatim azo jammies from newegg.

I just assumed that since ImgBurn let you choose your layer break (no idea what L0 means yet, though) that what I was trying to do would be possible.

Still curious about the 2 types of layer burning methods, if there are pros and cons to either, and if the method is user-selectable.

I do appreciate the input from you guys so far.

edit: Also, what I was trying to do must be pretty wacky to be so confusing, as the first 2 suggestions you put forth don't really apply to my situation ....as far as I can tell, since the content I'm burning already fits on one single layer disc.

[yoda313]

no idea what L0 means yet, though

Layer 0 maybe? Maybe it calls the first layer 0 and the second layer 1? As far as manually manipulating each gigabyte of data I don't think its possible. If it is it might be far more complex and could introduce player problems that we can't predict.

Thats just me thinking out loud. Like I said I'm not an expert on the background tech by any means. I'm just providing what I know from my experiences.

[Billkwando]

no idea what L0 means yet, though

Layer 0 maybe? Maybe it calls the first layer 0 and the second layer 1? As far as manually manipulating each gigabyte of data I don't think its possible. If it is it might be far more complex and could introduce player problems that we can't predict.

Thats just me thinking out loud. Like I said I'm not an expert on the background tech by any means. I'm just providing what I know from my experiences.

Oh wait, were you saying that it will only burn halfway across the disc because it's 4something gigs on an 8 gig disc? If so, that would be just as good as what I was trying to do.

[yoda313]

Oh wait, were you saying that it will only burn halfway across the disc because it's 4something gigs on an 8 gig disc? If so, that would be just as good as what I was trying to do.

Yes but thats a waste of a dl disc.

They are more inexpensive these days but that isn't neccessary.

You can put just 2 gigs on dl disc and finalize it if you want to. Its just a waste though.

[Billkwando]

Oh wait, were you saying that it will only burn halfway across the disc because it's 4something gigs on an 8 gig disc? If so, that would be just as good as what I was trying to do.

Yes but thats a waste of a dl disc.

They are more inexpensive these days but that isn't neccessary.

You can put just 2 gigs on dl disc and finalize it if you want to. Its just a waste though.

You're only halfway following what I'm saying (I think), but I agree that it's a waste and I am going to try putting the whole 4.5gig movie on one single layer, higher quality disc.

[yoda313]

try putting the whole 4.5gig movie on one single layer, higher quality disc.

Ok. That should work out the best in the end.

[Billkwando]

try putting the whole 4.5gig movie on one single layer, higher quality disc.

Ok. That should work out the best in the end.

Oh, the hoops we jump through to avoid pesky Japanese region coding. Thanks folks.

[redwudz]

To maybe answer a couple of your other questions:

Data is burned on a disc from inside out. DL discs burn the same way usually, depends on the mode of burning. A DVD-5 can hold about 4.37GB of data. A DL disc about 7.95GB of data.

Yes, you can run a video through DVD Shrink a second time, though you may have a fair amount of quality loss. You might be able to run it through DVD Rebuilder and get a bit better quality. I'm assuming you don't have access to the original video as running it through DVD RB would probably have been the best choice. With a concert video, the music is usually more important and I don't think Shrink messes with the audio, just the video, so audio quality should be preserved.

Verbatim is about the only dual layer brand that gives consistent results at present. You can try others, but your results may not be good. Not worth the risk to me.

You mention 'image' when you spoke about DL disc burning. If you mean you burned from a disc image, then you wouldn't be offered a layer break selection. But with that small amount of data, I don't know if ImageBurn would have given you any choices anyway.

I've probably got something wrong in all of this, but others can give better info if needed.

And welcome to our forums.

[Billkwando]

To maybe answer a couple of your other questions:

Data is burned on a disc from inside out. DL discs burn the same way usually, depends on the mode of burning. A DVD-5 can hold about 4.37GB of data. A DL disc about 7.95GB of data.

Yes, you can run a video through DVD Shrink a second time, though you may have a fair amount of quality loss. You might be able to run it through DVD Rebuilder and get a bit better quality. I'm assuming you don't have access to the original video as running it through DVD RB would probably have been the best choice. With a concert video, the music is usually more important and I don't think Shrink messes with the audio, just the video, so audio quality should be preserved.

Verbatim is about the only dual layer brand that gives consistent results at present. You can try others, but your results may not be good. Not worth the risk to me.

You mention 'image' when you spoke about DL disc burning. If you mean you burned from a disc image, then you wouldn't be offered a layer break selection. But with that small amount of data, I don't know if ImageBurn would have given you any choices anyway.

I've probably got something wrong in all of this, but others can give better info if needed.

And welcome to our forums.

Thanks for the welcome! Actually you got it 100% right.

I did try extracting the image using Winrar (back in my day we had to use ISObuster! Oh the times have changed), hoping I could get ImgBurn to give me the layer break option, but if your DVD is smaller than 4.7 it just skips that option. Sooo unless there was an option of introducing some sort of filler/dummy files into the disc (like they do w/ games), there's no way to do it on a dual layer disk with imgburn. Plus I dunno if that would allow me to preserve the integrity of the disc with the menus and all.

I will check out the rebuilder program though. Thanks for the tip!

[fritzi93]

It seems you're somewhat at cross-purposes with those trying to help you. The terminology can get confusing.

1) As to "freezing" near the end of the disc, that's usually a sign of crap media, as already stated. Oftentimes, slowing the burn speed can reduce the failure rate of low quality media. And verify your burns.
2) You don't specify type of disc, i.e. DVD-R-DL or DVD+R-DL. Yes, big difference. With "-R-DL" you have no flexibility in setting layer break, it runs to absolute data zone capacity, then switches. With "+R-DL" Layer_0 must be bigger than Layer_1, that's it.
3) I'm not absolutely clear your image won't fit on a single-layer DVDR, and I don't think anyone else is either, including you. What is the actual size of your image in bytes as reported by Explorer?
4) You don't need WinRAR, all you need is a virtual drive (DaemonTools, VirtualCloneDrive), mount the disc image and do a straight copy/paste to hard drive.
5) If you copy/paste the contents of the image to hard drive, you can set the layer break with PGCEdit and output a new image using this guide:

http://www.digital-digest.com/~blutach/dl_burn_guide2/dl_burning_with_pgcedit_v2.htm

[Billkwando]

It seems you're somewhat at cross-purposes with those trying to help you. The terminology can get confusing.

1) As to "freezing" near the end of the disc, that's usually a sign of crap media, as already stated. Oftentimes, slowing the burn speed can reduce the failure rate of low quality media. And verify your burns.
2) You don't specify type of disc, i.e. DVD-R-DL or DVD+R-DL. Yes, big difference. With "-R-DL" you have no flexibility in setting layer break, it runs to absolute data zone capacity, then switches. With "+R-DL" Layer_0 must be bigger than Layer_1, that's it.
3) I'm not absolutely clear your image won't fit on a single-layer DVDR, and I don't think anyone else is either, including you. What is the actual size of your image in bytes as reported by Explorer?
4) You don't need WinRAR, all you need is a virtual drive (DaemonTools, VirtualCloneDrive), mount the disc image and do a straight copy/paste to hard drive.
5) If you copy/paste the contents of the image to hard drive, you can set the layer break with PGCEdit and output a new image using this guide:

http://www.digital-digest.com/~blutach/dl_burn_guide2/dl_burning_with_pgcedit_v2.htm

Hey thanks for answering.

I do verify my burns (the disk freezes at different times, not always the same spots), and the DL media is +R (though I haven't used one yet).

I'll check into the other info when I get home and post back. Thanks again!

[Billkwando]

It seems you're somewhat at cross-purposes with those trying to help you. The terminology can get confusing.

1) As to "freezing" near the end of the disc, that's usually a sign of crap media, as already stated. Oftentimes, slowing the burn speed can reduce the failure rate of low quality media. And verify your burns.
2) You don't specify type of disc, i.e. DVD-R-DL or DVD+R-DL. Yes, big difference. With "-R-DL" you have no flexibility in setting layer break, it runs to absolute data zone capacity, then switches. With "+R-DL" Layer_0 must be bigger than Layer_1, that's it.
3) I'm not absolutely clear your image won't fit on a single-layer DVDR, and I don't think anyone else is either, including you. What is the actual size of your image in bytes as reported by Explorer?
4) You don't need WinRAR, all you need is a virtual drive (DaemonTools, VirtualCloneDrive), mount the disc image and do a straight copy/paste to hard drive.
5) If you copy/paste the contents of the image to hard drive, you can set the layer break with PGCEdit and output a new image using this guide:

http://www.digital-digest.com/~blutach/dl_burn_guide2/dl_burning_with_pgcedit_v2.htm

The image is 4,566,462kb

[fritzi93]

That will fit, although it's getting close to the edge of the disc. I'd try burning a single-layer at 8x or even 4x, with verification.

You haven't said what single-layer discs you've been using. ImgBurn can tell you the M.I.D. (media I.D.). The usual recommendation here is Verbatim (but not the Life series) and Taiyo-Yuden.

[victoriabears]

I have had discs freeze, even verbatim/taiyo yuden where it has my smudgy finger print on the edge !

[Billkwando]

That will fit, although it's getting close to the edge of the disc. I'd try burning a single-layer at 8x or even 4x, with verification.

You haven't said what single-layer discs you've been using. ImgBurn can tell you the M.I.D. (media I.D.). The usual recommendation here is Verbatim (but not the Life series) and Taiyo-Yuden.

Yeah, I always burn at slow speed, specially since I had this skippy prob with this movie. I've made a couple copies of it. Also, I always verify.

I'm pretty sure the disc brand was Imation (which has worked fine for me up til now), but I can check tonight to see who really made it.

[jman98]

Billkwando - it could be that your player has issues with any consumer burnable single layer discs that go near the edge, but as a general rule Taiyo Yuden and Verbatim make much higher quality discs than what you are using and you'll be more likely for the player to successfully read to the edge with those. I've written discs that were 99.9% full that played fine on my players, but then again I don't buy Sony. Sony's glory days are LONG LONG gone. I don't recommend any of their BD or DVD players any more.

[SLK001]

If you would re-author the image to change the layer break point (either PGCEdit, or full re-author) you can do what you want. There has to be a minimum amount of data on the top layer, but half of your data would easily meet this requirement. Once a layer break is set, any burning program should honor it - ie, they shouldn't even offer to change the break point.

Most of us have already experienced the pitfalls of using the cheap blanks. This is why we almost universally recommend Taiyo-Yuden blanks for single layer disks and Verbatim for dual layered blanks. The cheap disks are generally not worth the plastic it took to shrink wrap the spindle.

[Billkwando]

If you would re-author the image to change the layer break point (either PGCEdit, or full re-author) you can do what you want. There has to be a minimum amount of data on the top layer, but half of your data would easily meet this requirement. Once a layer break is set, any burning program should honor it - ie, they shouldn't even offer to change the break point.

If I did that (just a "what if"), if it's OTP, would that cause the 2nd layer to burn from the outside edge, inward? This is what I'm still unclear on and wanted to clear up (for science!).

[jman98]

If I remember correctly I think that Verbatim DVD+R DL discs use PTP and all other brands use OTP. The guys who know that for sure have not yet participated in this thread.

Again do note that some DVD players have problems with ALL consumer burnable DL media and if you have such a player this will NOT solve your problem. Actually it's a pretty bassackwards and more expensive way to solve it because using better quality single layer media might be all you really need to do.

[Billkwando]

If I remember correctly I think that Verbatim DVD+R DL discs use PTP and all other brands use OTP. The guys who know that for sure have not yet participated in this thread.

Again do note that some DVD players have problems with ALL consumer burnable DL media and if you have such a player this will NOT solve your problem. Actually it's a pretty bassackwards and more expensive way to solve it because using better quality single layer media might be all you really need to do.

Yeah, I'm just a tenacious experimenter so I thought it would be fun to try it both ways ('specially since I don't trust these Ritek DL discs enough to make one of them the final "keeper" copy). What's the word on single layer +R/R media and DVD players? I've heard +R was better so I was planning on get some Verbatims, but they have the regular R for the same price.

Oh off topic, is $8 shipping on a spindle of 50 high? I was gonna order from newegg, but the idea of paying half of what I'm paying for the discs, just for shipping, just kinda threw me for a loop.