VHS to PC capture

[dbanimal]

Hi all,

I see plenty of VHS to DVD threads but none really help out much. My dad asked me to put about 12 hours of VHS tapes on DVD for him but I'm wondering the best way to do this. I have an older Sony VCR with composite output (Video, right and left audio). Now, I can do it the really hard way (very long way) by hooking the VCR up to my Sony Handycam but then I can only record up to 20 minutes and then have to switch discs, then I need to copy from the disc to my hard drive. I prefer not to have to do it this way. I was thinking about purchasing this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882203057&cm_re=rca_to_usb_cable...-057-_-Product. Any thoughts? It looks like it comes with a capture software but otherwise I thought I could use CapDVHS to capture. I also have VideoRedo TV Suite version 3 and Vegas Movie Studio 9 Platinum Pro Pack for editing.

My laptop has a 4 pin firewire input but I don't think they make an RCA to firewire cable.

Any advice before I make a purchase for that cable???

Thanks in advance!

[jagabo]

A DVD recorder with a built in line TBC is easier and will give better results than a capture device on a computer. Unless you plan on spending a lot of money and time (S-VHS deck with line TBC, full frame TBC, video proc amp, capture device, lots of software filtering).

If you want to go firewire look at the Canopus ADVC-100 and similar products.

[dbanimal]

Thanks for the info but it appears this cable should do the trick or at least get the job done with satisfactory results. It's also cheaper from Amazon.com.

[PuzZLeR]

If I could define five routes most use for VHS -> Digital formats from what I've seen, they are:

1) VCR with built-in line/field TBC -> stand-alone full-frame TBC -> proc amp -> high quality capture device (like the Canopus ADVC 110, Hauppauge 250/350, ATI 600, etc)

2) Decent VCR -> DVR with line TBC (maybe with a "video stabilizer" in between)

3) VCR/DVR combo unit

4) Any VCR around -> high quality capture device (like the Canopus ADVC 110, Hauppauge 250/350, ATI 600, etc) and maybe with a "video stabilizer" in between

5) Any VCR around -> consumer capture device

#1 is a bit complicated, the most expensive but produces the best results.
#2 is very easy and produces very good results - best balance for the average individual
#3 is the easiest by far, but has the worst results on average (and won't work for every tape)
#4 is borderline inexpensive and produces variable results in the range of average to very good
#5 is the least expensive and produces variable results in the range of horrid to above-average at best (and won't work for every tape)

Your solution is best described by #5.

[jagabo]

Good summary.

[dbanimal]

Yes, thanks for the info PuzZLeR! Well being this will only be a one or two time thing I find it hard to invest a ton of money into the project. I'll hope for the best once my cable arrives! Thanks again!

[PuzZLeR]

Didn't mean to be mean, just pointing to the facts.

And I understand your situation. The better, more expensive, methods are really for professionals, or even hardcores, who have, like 300+, or even 1000+ tapes to do. The investment would be worth it then.

But I would suggest that maybe you at least consider option #4, a proven tool that is known to bring quality results, which wouldn't be that much more expensive, if not cheaper. Then again, you ordered yours anyway, so I hope it works for you.

If it doesn't work out for you, another suggestion, since it's only a few tapes, is to consider a transfer house instead of lugging all sorts of equipment you may never use.

Good luck.

[jagabo]

Your best bet is to use a DVD recorder like the Panasonic ES15 that has a built in line TBC. You can get those used for about US$75 on ebay. Record onto DVD in 1 hour mode for best picture quaility. Or just use it as a passthrough to clean up the sync and record with any analog capture device on the computer.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1983288

[PuzZLeR]

Just checked myself, yes indeed, as of this time they are dirt cheap.

[jagabo]

Just checked myself, yes indeed, as of this time they are dirt cheap.

You may see prices like $10 now but in the last minutes of the auction the price will shoot up to US$75.

[PuzZLeR]

Those bloody snipers always multiply the price considerably the last minute of many types of auctions... makes me feel like sniping them for real when I have to pay much more if I win.

But then again, eBaY works very much like any supply/demand market. If the final price is $75, that means it's pretty much on par with the equilibrium price of the current market.

[dbanimal]

Wow, thanks again guys for the great advice, it's much appreciated!! Surprisingly my cable arrived today (strange for Amazon but I'm grateful), I set it up and tested and I'm very impressed with the results, video and audio are sync'd nicely! I do have a question about the quality I can record at and what you recommend. It looks like my best options, at least to maintain 720x480, are DVD-NTSC and MPEG-2. All other options are of a smaller video size.

DVD-NTSC (at highest settings)
Video Size = 720x480
Frame Rate = 29.97
Video Quality = High
Video Bitrate = 9000Kbps

MPEG-2 (at highest settings)
Video Size = 720x480
Frame Rate = 29.97
Video Quality = Normal (only option)
Video Bitrate = 9000Kbps

I recorded 20 second video clips in both formats and I really can't tell the difference except MPEG-2 size was 23.1MB and DVD-NTSC was 23.0MB consistently...not that that means anything. Any advice? Thanks again!

Edit: One more thing, being this is VHS, is it even worth it to record at a high bitrate, or would there be no difference if I cut it in half?!?!

[PuzZLeR]

I set it up and tested and I'm very impressed with the results, video and audio are sync'd nicely!

Glad to hear you like it. That's the important thing.

I do have a question about the quality I can record at and what you recommend. It looks like my best options, at least to maintain 720x480, are DVD-NTSC and MPEG-2. All other options are of a smaller video size.

Unless DV is offered, which I doubt (otherwise it would actually be much bigger than MPEG-2), for SD video stick with MPEG-2 - compliant with DvD, high quality at high bitrates with many encoders and easy to edit with an MPEG dedicated editor.

I imagine the other "smaller" formats may be DivX or WMV - and usually come out crap from consumer-ware items that are ignorant about good settings. These latter formats were especially not designed for capturing anyway.

Nevertheless, hard drive space is getting bigger anyway. Why hurt memories' quality for a smaller file size?

I recorded 20 second video clips in both formats and I really can't tell the difference except MPEG-2 size was 23.1MB and DVD-NTSC was 23.0MB consistently...not that that means anything. Any advice? Thanks again!

Both are MPEG-2, but the "DvD-NTSC" option guarantees compliance, although I too see very little difference. You can actually compare the quality between the two using Avisynth and the "interleave()" command. Or, if you like, and still want to know, just upload a small sample from each and one of us will let you know which is higher quality with closer inspection.

Another thing could be a difference in audio formats. Does the "DvD-NTSC" option have AC3 and the "MPEG-2" option have MP2? Just curious.

One more thing, being this is VHS, is it even worth it to record at a high bitrate, or would there be no difference if I cut it in half?!?!

When using MPEG-2, I always use bitrates over 8000kbps when capturing VHS. There is a difference between this and, say, 4000kbps. Personally, I use high bitrates to make sure I get the most out of the capture. I don't care really much about file size when I'm (re-)sourcing memories.

Again, hard drive space will be getting bigger and bigger, and if these tapes are memories, then I wouldn't hurt the quality for some space savings that will mean nothing in the future anyway, especially since the tapes, and your original source, will be deteriorating in the long run. I remember 10 years ago people were trying to save every bit for their photo scans. They regret it today, especially if they no longer have their photos. Same thing with VHS captures IMO for the future.

[dbanimal]

Well now I have another question. Looking at reviews on this cable I noticed quite a few people that say any other capturing software is better than what came with the cable (GrabBee) as far as quality goes. So I tested this theory and captured using Windows Movie Maker set at High quality video (large) and yes, I have to agree that I could definitely tell WMM had a better quality and the resulting file size was half of what GrabBee was at set at its highest settings. Now, the limitation of WMM is that I cannot capture at 720x480, 640x480 is the max. In my original post I mentioned all captured videos were going on DVD after editing and I was told that I should be capturing at 720x480 if the videos will be going on DVD. Is this true? I was also told that it's best to capture at 720 instead of 640 and converting to 720 due to loss of quality...is this also true? What would you recommend?

I also tried Vegas Movie Studio 9 PPP and I went under 'Project' then 'Capture Video' and the 2 options I had available were DV and HDV. I tried both with no luck finding my device. Is there a method of capturing in Vegas using this cable?? Thanks again for all the great help!!

[jagabo]

640x480 isn't legal for DVD. The specified frame sizes for DVD are 720x480, 704x480, 352x480, or 352x240. What codec and container is WMM creating? WMV3 in a WMV file? That's not DVD compatible either. I don't know about Vegas.

VirtualDub might be able to capture from the device. If so, you could capture with a lossless codec like HuffYUV. From there you can edit and filter (fix colors, brightness, reduce noise, whatever). Then finally convert to DVD compatible MPEG 2 with an MPEG encoder. That will probably get you the best quality but it's more time consuming and more work.

[dbanimal]

What codec and container is WMM creating? WMV3 in a WMV file?

I have no idea but it looks like WMM is out due to the 640 limitation.

I forgot to ask about VideoRedo TVSuite version 3, I'm not sure if its able to capture from a video device. Has anyone tried? I'll have to jump on their forums to investigate. Otherwise it's back to GrabBee and I could probably use Avisynth to clean it up and smooth it out a tad...if I can figure out how to use the program!

[PuzZLeR]

Looking at reviews on this cable I noticed quite a few people that say any other capturing software is better than what came with the cable (GrabBee) as far as quality goes. So I tested this theory and captured using Windows Movie Maker set at High quality video (large) and yes, I have to agree that I could definitely tell WMM had a better quality and the resulting file size was half of what GrabBee was at set at its highest settings.

Even the best capture hardware is notorious for bad accompanying software. This, sadly, seems more rule than exception since the hardware manufacturers either don't have the core competency internally, or insource a cheap token app with their hardware.

Most users here will use a third party app with their hardware anyway. I personally use WinDV, Beyond TV, VirtualDub and NeroVision, for all my capturing with all my hardware depending. I've even compared, at least with my Hauppauge 1950, that the quality is slightly better (when using Avisynth to preview) with Beyond TV than with the accompanying WinTV that came with it, even at the same exact bitrate.

Never tested with WMM, but it doesn't sound surprising.

Now, the limitation of WMM is that I cannot capture at 720x480, 640x480 is the max.

Maybe WMM isn't aligned correctly with your hardware. Try this:

-Restart your PC but make sure that WMM doesn't start with it (you may have to disable it beforehand with Start->Run->Msconfig and/or Start->Control Panel->Administrative Tools->Services)
-Fire up GrabBee and enter your preferred settings.
-Now fire up WMM and run a capture. Hopefully it's aligned correctly this time.

At least it's this way with Beyond TV when I need alignment. I always set my preferences in the accompanying software first, which knows the drivers better, everytime I (re-)start my PC.

In my original post I mentioned all captured videos were going on DVD after editing and I was told that I should be capturing at 720x480 if the videos will be going on DVD. Is this true?

As Jagabo mentioned, yes it's true. A 640 width is not DvD compliant.

I was also told that it's best to capture at 720 instead of 640 and converting to 720 due to loss of quality...is this also true? What would you recommend?

The resolution of VHS is lower than any of those, so a width of 640 or 720 isn't going to make much of a difference at a high enough bitrate. But if this is going straight to DvD after editing, then you have to use 720. (And use an MPEG dedicated editor like TMPGEnc MPEG Editor, Womble or VideoReDo if you want to edit without loss to the MPEG-2 stream.)

I also tried Vegas Movie Studio 9 PPP and I went under 'Project' then 'Capture Video' and the 2 options I had available were DV and HDV. I tried both with no luck finding my device. Is there a method of capturing in Vegas using this cable?? Thanks again for all the great help!!

I will mention that Vegas is better designed to edit less compressed acquisition sources like DV and HDV, not MPEG-2. If you're going to be working with MPEG-2, you really should use a dedicated editor for it since, I think, Vegas may insist on re-encoding anything in MPEG-2 after edits, which will cost time and quality.

But why would you want to capture in a resource hog like Vegas anyway? Use a slimmer utility to capture since capturing is CPU intensive, then load that into Vegas if you must.

A good slimmer tool is indeed VirtualDub as mentioned...

VirtualDub might be able to capture from the device. If so, you could capture with a lossless codec like HuffYUV. From there you can edit and filter (fix colors, brightness, reduce noise, whatever). Then finally convert to DVD compatible MPEG 2 with an MPEG encoder. That will probably get you the best quality but it's more time consuming and more work.

True enough. And Jagabo may agree with the following too:

However, I don't think this device has the WDM drivers necessary to be recognized by VirtualDub, or even Vegas or any other app. Most current capture devices have gone the way of the consumer-friendly route to be more simpler - at the cost of less portability, less quality and no capturing to less compressed formats. In other words, no disrespect, many are crap as a result to many here in this Forum.

If you can find WDM drivers for your device, which I doubt, then you would be better off capturing with VDub in lossless, or less compressed like DV, then setting up a script and using a good MPEG-2 encoder (like H Enc or CCE) for the final result.

[dbanimal]

Update:

Well I have the majority of the VHS tapes copied to my PC now. I used VideoRedo to edit them. I know you mentioned Vegas may not be the best choice for creating a DVD, how much quality loss would there be do you think? I have a version of Pinnacle that came free with a TV card I purchased a while back but won't allow me to do much as far as chapters and overall effects...unless I pay for the full version!! Then I was considering just using Windows Movie Maker as it has more movie making options except I can't burn the project to DVD!! Or does someone know how to burn movies to DVD after my movie creation through WMM??

Really I'm just ranting because I purchased Vegas and feel like I'm better off using something else to create a movie.

Edit: Hmmm...I was going through this tutorial http://www.windowsmoviemakers.net/Tutorials/HowToMakeDVD.aspx and noticed Nero 6 Ultra on his list. It just so happens I have Nero 6 Ultra. I will investigate this further once I get home!

dbanimal

[PuzZLeR]

Vegas is a good editor if you have a camera and have more conventional acquisition sources, which excludes MPEG-2. MPEG-2 edits are not typically done by professionals, or hardcores, so Vegas didn't emphasis this feature.

I also can't confirm for sure, but a version of Vegas that I've tried in the past insisted I reencode after the edits with MPEG-2. Even a consumer friendly editor like VideoStudio is problematic with MPEG-2. Yes, it works if you re-encode what's on the timeline, but when using smart render you get problematic streams.

I can't say how much quality you will lose with these editors, including WMM (which I don't use) but you WILL lose, and likely lots since, furthermore, they weren't designed to be good MPEG-2 encoders as well.

This is why when working with MPEG-2, an MPEG dedicated editor like VideoReDo, is a good choice since it only re-encodes around the cuts and joins - nothing else. It also outputs a functioning steam because it was designed to handle GOPs, and other such complexities, with MPEG-2.

If you need something a bit more complex, or non-linear, such as fades, transitions, etc, Womble is another one for MPEG-2.

As for DvD, you can get it done directly with VideoReDo. There are options with "Add title to DvD".

[dbanimal]

Sorry, but I'm very new to the video/audio/DVD creation scene. What exactly is VideoRedo changing my mpeg-2 files to? I notice my extension goes from mpeg to mpg. Is it just keeping it the same (mpeg-2)?

[PuzZLeR]

Both extensions are used for virtually the same type of file, whether it's a Program Stream of MPEG-1 or MPEG-2. It's just simply choice. (Although I believe the .mpg extension is more "modern" due to the establishment of the format over the years.) The Program Stream, whether named .mpg or .mpeg, is IMO the best for simple independent PC playback, has no segmentation, and contains less overhead than most other wrappers/containers.

You may notice .m2v and .mpv, which are similar but only for the video portion.

There are others for MPEG-2, such as .ts (for Transport Streams), .m2ts (for Blu-ray video) and .vob (for DvD video). They are simply just different containers that can package MPEG-2 (and sometimes other formats and with audio). Conversion between them is lossless, but should be done properly.

You CAN put MPEG-2 in .mkv, .mp4, and even .avi, but meh, not worth it for a number of reasons.

VideoReDo is doing nothing wrong with your files. It is keeping the same MPEG-2 streams, in the same quality, and even in the same file format, only a different extension.

[dbanimal]

OK. In one of my previous threads I mentioned that I record HD from my DVR to my laptop using CapDVHS and I record it as a .ts file. Well Vegas would never open the .ts file and constantly complained. It was then I was told to try out VideoRedo, which this took care of my problem in Vegas (once the .ts was converted to .mpg). I then purchased VRD TVSuite as I thought it was well worth it. My intention is to use Vegas to create shows on blu ray. So if I'm understanding you properly, VRD should not have a negative impact on any of those .ts files (now .mpg) whilst using Vegas? Sorry this got so far off the original topic, but you know how one thing can lead to another!

Thanks again for your valuable information and a special thanks to the person who created this site!!

[PuzZLeR]

I then purchased VRD TVSuite as I thought it was well worth it. My intention is to use Vegas to create shows on blu ray. So if I'm understanding you properly, VRD should not have a negative impact on any of those .ts files (now .mpg) whilst using Vegas?

Zero impact is your answer.

When VRD is converting MPEG-2 .ts files to .mpg files, all it's doing is simply taking the MPEG-2 video stream within and placing it in a different container with zero quality loss (remuxing). You may even notice a smaller file size with the converted .mpg file, but that's only because Program Streams have less overhead than Transport Streams, not because you lost quality due to any compression/re-encoding/etc.

I will note however, when the Transport Stream has multiple audio formats, or DTS, I use other methods with VRD to make sure the transfer is done completely.

[dbanimal]

Thanks again PuzZLeR!

Now that I have plenty of VHS on my PC I would like to do some specific editing. The biggest things is to get rid of the horizontal lines on either the top or bottom of each video frame, that and I would like to get rid of the grainy look and smooth it out more. I believe this can all be done using AVISynth correct?

My question is can AVISynth immediately process mpg files or do they have to originally be avi files then converted? I'm currently going through the documentation to see what I can find. Thanks.

[jagabo]

For best results with AviSynth you should use DgIndex to build and index file from your MPG file, then use Mpeg2Source() in your script:

Mpeg2Source("filename.d2v", CPU=6)
#whatever filters you want here

You can also use DirectShowSource() if your system is set up with a DirectShow MPEG splitter and decoder, but it's not always frame accurate:

DirectShowSource("filename.d2v", CPU=6)
#whatever filters you want here

The output from the AVS script will be uncompressed video frames. So you need to compress them with an MPEG 2 encoder for DVD (HcGUI is a very good encoder and it's free) or some other codec (like x264).

[PuzZLeR]

Yes, you should always index MPEG files first, such as to a .d2v file, then make an AviSynth script from that file instead of the MPEG file. I even index TS, AVI and MP4 too (those with FFMSIndex) for use with AviSynth.

However, if you want to crop and/or filter keep in mind that, unlike cuts/joins, this needs an encoding process, which means quality loss with a lossy format, like to MPEG-2. This is why the hardcores like to capture with a tool that captures in lossless, or less lossy than MPEG-2, formats first, then encode to MPEG-2, with a script, using a good MPEG-2 encoder.

Capture -> Lossless/Less lossy format -> MPEG-2

You will lose more quality with the setup you have now, which is:

Capture -> MPEG-2 -> MPEG-2

But, you can make up some of it in the re-encoding phase with a good MPEG-2 encoder like CCE, or HC Enc/HCGUI (free). I don't use HC much, but I find I get very true to original results using CCE with Q=29 or 30. I'm not sure what the equivalent would be with HC though.

As for AviSynth scripts, use Crop() for removing the tracking fuzz from VHS, then resize back to DvD resolution with LanczosResize() (if the crops are small). If you want to ensure zero error on the aspect ratio use Crop(), then use the exact pixel count with AddBorders().

As for de-graining VHS noise, or filters in general, there are MANY, MANY, MANY available with AviSynth. I personally like a combination of deblocking, color adjustments, seesaw with the ttempsmooth denoiser and some parameter adjustments within, along with some artificial graining at a certain level. Honestly, this is highly subjective IMO, and it's up to you to test, and decide, which results look best to your eyes.

[jagabo]

As for AviSynth scripts, use Crop() for removing the tracking fuzz from VHS, then resize back to DvD resolution with LanczosResize()

I would advise against resizing NTSC video. Most things you capture are going to be interlaced (telecined film, sports, camcorder video) and cannot be resized vertically without special handling.

If you want to ensure zero error on the aspect ratio use Crop(), then use the exact pixel count with AddBorders().

This is a much better idea. Crop away junk at the edges of the frame then use addborders to restore the original frame size. If possible the borders should be an integer multiple of 8 (because MPEG encoding works on blocks of 8x8 pixels and you will get maximum efficiency and the least artifacting with borders that are multiples of 8). For example if you Crop(16, 4, -8, -12) then AddBorders(16, 8, 8, 8).