Capture choices

[EagleAye]

Not sure wether it best to post this here or on the Mac forum but anyway…….
I have a load of family VHS and Hi8 video as well as TV recordings that I want to get into digital format, at the best quality I can reasonably obtain, and eventually edit in Final Cut Express on a Mac, for this I understand the video needs to be in DV format to "play nice".
I have an EZCap USB device with Videoglide software on the Mac that I have been experimenting with, but have had some problems with dropped frames when capturing in some of the formats and the resulting material still needs converting through MPEG Streamclip to work well with FCE.

Before I spend too much time trying to get get the workflow right for the EZCap, I'm wondering if I'd be better off capturing on a Windows XP machine using Virtualdub?
I'm not adverse to using different platforms to get a good result and have access to a Pentium 4 PC with an ATI 9600 Pro AGP Card that I could utilise, I've read on these forums and others that in many ways these older AGP cards are just as good if not better than todays cards for capturing, any views?
In short, are there advantages of using an XP machine with the 9600 card and Virtualdub over the EZCap device on the Mac, I'm I likely to notice a difference?
If the PC is thought to be the best option should I convert the resulting material on the PC or on the Mac with Streamclip for use with FCE?
Finally when converting material from lossless to DV format for Mac what am I losing in quality, I'm I going to notice it?

Any opinions and advice greatly appreciated.

[DB83]

I may be wrong but I thought that ATI card is just a graphics card and not a capture or tv card.

Of course, you may still be able to use the EZ Cap on the Pentium PC although you could equally run into the dropped frame issue there which is typically caused by a slow hard drive or trying to capture on the same hard drive as the operating system and the higher the quality capture the higher the chances are of dropped frames.

[usually_quiet]

If it is just an ATI 9600 Pro, and there is no "All-In-Wonder" or "AIW" included in the name, it can't be used as a capture device.

[usually_quiet]

My memory played a trick on me. Some of the ATI Radeon 9600 Pro series cards without a tuner included a VIVO feature (video in video out). If yours does, then it can capture, assuming you still have the adapter. However, I think the All-In-Wonder Radeon 9800 Pro cards beat the ATI Radeon 9600 Pro VIVO and AIW ATI Radeon 9600 Pro cards as capture devices.

[Edit]I know there is a big difference in price, but if you want to work with DV, and have a FireWire port on either computer have you considered a DV capture device?

[EagleAye]

It is an all in wonder card and I have the cable etc., but I'd consider buying another card if the results warrant it.
I want to avoid external devices such as a canopus due to the cost and availability in the UK, together with uncertainty of wether I'd get better results. The Mac I am currently capturing with is a dual drive, dual processor G5.
would I get better results using the PC above?

[DB83]

I have used a Canopus for several years and, for me, the results are more than acceptable. I have a friend, a Mac user, who also uses a Canopus, in fact a lower version than mine, who is equally happy with the results.

I know zilch about your Mac so can not comment on whether that PC would perform better than it.

You would have great difficulty in finding an AGP capture card these days.

But video quality, whatever the capture device, starts with the quality of your VCR. Or to put it another way 'You can not get blood out of a stone'

[usually_quiet]

You would have to compare captures from the EzCAP and the ATI 9600 Pro to see which has the better picture. You could still drop frames regardless.

If you are going to use the huffyuv codec with Virtualdub to make losslessly compressed captures, you will need a big second HDD to use for capture. Huffyuv consumes in the neighborhood of 30-40GB per hour. According to what I have read here at VideoHelp, the capture drive should be defragmented before capturing.

[RabidDog]

You should NOT get any dropped frames with an eazycap .. what you might be doing is using the device on a machine that is only using a USB1.1 or even usb1.0. I use a similar device and it works fine with zero dropped frames over a usb interface, but I am using powerdirector7 as the capture program. However it is the USb device that does all the "capturing" and simply sends a digital stream to the PC. So as long as the Usb port is up to snuff it should be ok. Try usb ports on the back.
Incidentally the eazycap captures natively in Mpeg2 AFAIK? so this places less strain on the CPU when capturing, approx 4gb per hour which is inherently more easy to deal with than 40-50gb files.

Go to Control Panel /sound and Video devices / Hardware / DVd Maker2 (or your equiv.) / Properties .., that should display the chipset eg eMPIA Technology usb2861 driver

If you are trying to capture in anything other than the native format (MPEG2), either your CPU or your disk(s) may not be able to keep up.

[usually_quiet]

You should NOT get any dropped frames with an eazycap .. what you might be doing is using the device on a machine that is only using a USB1.1 or even usb1.0. I use a similar device and it works fine with zero dropped frames over a usb interface, but I am using powerdirector7 as the capture program. However it is the USb device that does all the "capturing" and simply sends a digital stream to the PC. So as long as the Usb port is up to snuff it should be ok. Try usb ports on the back.
Incidentally the eazycap captures natively in Mpeg2 AFAIK? so this places less strain on the CPU when capturing, approx 4gb per hour which is inherently more easy to deal with than 40-50gb files.

Go to Control Panel /sound and Video devices / Hardware / DVd Maker2 (or your equiv.) / Properties .., that should display the chipset eg eMPIA Technology usb2861 driver

If you are trying to capture in anything other than the native format (MPEG2), either your CPU or your disk(s) may not be able to keep up.

If the USB connection isn't fast enough frames are dropped. If too much data is delivered too quickly to the HDD, it can't keep up and frames are dropped. The EzCAP116 depends on software encoding, just like other small USB capture devices. If the encoder places too much load on the CPU, frames can be dropped that way too. However, MPEG-2 encoding places more strain on the CPU than some other codecs that use less compression.

The OP hasn't said what codecs are being used on the Mac. I'm guessing some flavor of MPEG-4. That could be a problem for the CPU, but lossless captures for the PC could be a problem for the HDD.

[EagleAye]

Thanks for all the replies.
I have been capturing on a G5 Mac, the EZCap chipset is the eMPIA one and it is connected to a USB 2.0 port.
The Videoglide software I've been using to capture with the EZCap has a number of codecs that I've trialled, it's only with some of these that I get "stuttering video.
The other problem I have is that none of the captures play correctly when importing into Final Cut Express, mainly the audio is out of sync, only by converting through Streamclip can I get them to play well, and I wonder what I'm losing in terms of quality at each process.
Seeing as I need to convert regardless, prompted wondering if the PC with AIW method would be better than the Mac with EZCap method.

[usually_quiet]

I looked at VideoGlide's webpage http://www.echofx.com/videoglide.html and it says this:'

"Captured movies require only 66.5 GB of disk storage per hour of uncompressed yuv video. Using the recommended JPEG compression requires only 3 GB of storage per hour."

and this:

"The included VideoGlide Export software will allow the export of QuickTime movies to any other QuickTime format including DV Streams required by iMovie and H.264 or MPEG-4 movies required by iTunes and video-enabled Pods. QuickTime Pro is not required."

It appears from the description that VideoGlide offers just two formats for capture, uncompressed yuv video and JPEG compression, and conversions to other formats is performed on the capture files afterwards, not on the fly.

I didn't see any hardware requirements, but I don't think JPEG compression would be too much for a 2GHz dual core CPU, or the HDD. However, JPEG compression is lossy, so I'm guessing that is not what you are using for the captures.

If you are doing uncompressed yuv video captures, that explains the dropped frames. There is just too much data being transferred for the HDD to keep up with the capture. People here who do uncompressed yuv captures have said they use a RAID array to prevent dropped frames. I think uncompressed yuv video is what the EZCap always transmits over USB. The capture software isn't doing any compression so the CPU isn't going to be overworked.

Virtualdub offers the chance to perform lossless compression on the incoming data using the Huffyuv codec, which is very fast. The capture files would be smaller than those for uncompressed YUV captures, but are still large enough that the possibility of dropped frames exists. The AGP card you plan to use is not the best ATI ever made, but is still pretty good. I think you could also use the EZCap with Virtualdub if you wanted to. I can't tell you which device is best for this. You will need to try both and decide for yourself

If I'm wrong and VideoGlide offers more than 2 choices for capturing, maybe you could also disclose what codecs are causing problems.

[EagleAye]

Videoglide can capture using the following:
Animation, Apple Intermediate Codec, Apple Pixlet Video, Apple VC H.263, DV-PAL, DV/DVCPRO-NTSC, DVCPRO-PAL, DVCPRO50-NTSC, DVCPRO50-PAL, H.264, JPEG 2000, Motion JPEG A, Motion JPEG B, MPEG-4 Video, None, Photo-JPEG, PNG, YUV422 Codec.
I get dropped frames when capturing with Apple Intermediate Codec, Motion JPEG and No compression. The main issue is that I have to run material captured in any of the above through Streamclip to make them playable in FCE, otherwise the audio gets out of sync.
Thanks for drawing attention to the Videoglide export program, I had totally disregarded it, I got the EZCap device in the first place thinking I could do everything on the Mac and avoid converting files and potentially losing quality. Now that it looks like I have to convert anyway I'll do the comparisons between the PC and Mac capture methods, unless anyone knows the PC method will offer more.

[usually_quiet]

Videoglide can capture using the following:
Animation, Apple Intermediate Codec, Apple Pixlet Video, Apple VC H.263, DV-PAL, DV/DVCPRO-NTSC, DVCPRO-PAL, DVCPRO50-NTSC, DVCPRO50-PAL, H.264, JPEG 2000, Motion JPEG A, Motion JPEG B, MPEG-4 Video, None, Photo-JPEG, PNG, YUV422 Codec.
I get dropped frames when capturing with Apple Intermediate Codec, Motion JPEG and No compression. The main issue is that I have to run material captured in any of the above through Streamclip to make them playable in FCE, otherwise the audio gets out of sync.
Thanks for drawing attention to the Videoglide export program, I had totally disregarded it, I got the EZCap device in the first place thinking I could do everything on the Mac and avoid converting files and potentially losing quality. Now that it looks like I have to convert anyway I'll do the comparisons between the PC and Mac capture methods, unless anyone knows the PC method will offer more.

No compression means uncompressed yuv video @ 66.5 GB/Hr. This is too much data for an HDD to keep up with, and dropped frames are the result.

Apparently AIC is normally used for HD video, and I couldn't find much information on using it for SD video. References I saw didn't agree. One said Apple Intermediate Codec takes about 13 GB per hour for SD video, and the other said about 20 GB/hr. The HDD should handle that either way. My best guess is that the CPU you have can't keep up with the demands imposed by VideoGlide's AIC software encoder when doing compression on the fly. Perhaps someone else will know more. Being a PC user puts one at a disadvantage when dealing with Apple-only codecs.

I couldn't find anything that explained why encoding to Motion JPEG would cause dropped frames. It's used by some digital video cameras, but has largely been replaced by better codecs. Maybe someone who has worked with it in the past can explain.

[DB83]

I have read a lot about the Ezcap and its predecessor(s). And they seem to have renamed their device Ezcap to distinguish it from all the fakes that have been born out of it.

So what do I then find? Plenty of such devices all called Ezcap which does make me wonder if this is the real mcoy.

But I will asume it is and the OP can confirm, or otherwise that it came in the correct box. Yeah, I know even that is no proof these days.

The OP also states that all codecs de-sync the video and audio. But reading some feedback of this that does seem to be an issue with the device certainly using the provided Windows software. Yet I also read that the person who was complaining of this did manage to fix it without resorting to additional software.

But I do wonder whether it would be possible to use this device and capture direct with FCP. Of course this is a Mac program and that answer should be provided in the dedicated forum. Yet FCP can capture in DV and I wonder if this has been tried.

I might also add that I am tempted to get one of these to transfer the NTSC VHS that I own. I do have some hardware to do this but it does involve some post-processing which may de avoided.

[EagleAye]

Thanks for the replies, it's great how having others looking into things has open my eyes, I've taken a closer look at everything now.
My AIW 9600 card now looks to be faulty, so I need to make a decision on wether to source a replacement or use the USB device.
My USB device is actually something called Easycap so not the the official EZCap and has an Empia EM2860 chipset. I have tested it with Virtualdub that recognizes it as a Grabster AV350, but not actually captured any material yet.
So assuming I go the PC route to capture using Virtualdub and put aside the issue of apparent dropped frames and audio sync problems (I'm sure I'll have to revisit them at some point though) and worry about converting material for editing in Final Cut Express at a later date, does anyone have any experience or opinions on what would be better to use, the USB device or an AIW card.
Obviously finding another AIW card will be extra expense but I'd be willing to pay the price if the results warrant it. Does anyone know what I'd gain by using an AIW card over the USB device? Will I notice any difference, I'm unable to do any side by side comparisons now the 9600 is faulty.

[usually_quiet]

Thanks for the replies, it's great how having others looking into things has open my eyes, I've taken a closer look at everything now.
My AIW 9600 card now looks to be faulty, so I need to make a decision on wether to source a replacement or use the USB device.
My USB device is actually something called Easycap so not the the official EZCap and has an Empia EM2860 chipset. I have tested it with Virtualdub that recognizes it as a Grabster AV350, but not actually captured any material yet.
So assuming I go the PC route to capture using Virtualdub and put aside the issue of apparent dropped frames and audio sync problems (I'm sure I'll have to revisit them at some point though) and worry about converting material for editing in Final Cut Express at a later date, does anyone have any experience or opinions on what would be better to use, the USB device or an AIW card.
Obviously finding another AIW card will be extra expense but I'd be willing to pay the price if the results warrant it. Does anyone know what I'd gain by using an AIW card over the USB device? Will I notice any difference, I'm unable to do any side by side comparisons now the 9600 is faulty.

The AIW 9600 and AIW 9800 came out in 2003, but are still prized as capture devices by people who have one. They look for AGP motherboards if they build a new PC so they can keep using them. Maybe that will tell you something. You will have to a look for used ones on ebay.

While the AIW cards can be used with Virtualdub, ATI's Multimedia Center might be a better choice. It allows the use of ATI's Video Soap filter, which is apparently a great way to improve captured video. I don't know if it is possible to use that with Virtualdub. If you are a beginner at video capture, it might be best to start with something other than uncompressed video or lossless codecs. You could try Cedocida DV Codec with Virtualdub and see how that works.

Some people succeed with them, but I have seen so many requests for help with the cheap EasyCap knock-offs that presently I would only recommend them to someone I disliked.