I'm running out of time and I need some help... VHS to DVD

[Boxster]

Hey everyone!

I'm really excited about this forum. This is my first time posting, so go easy on me!

Short story: My great uncle was killed in action on a B24 in WWII. Most of my living family never had a chance to meet him. My father was very young when my great uncle (his uncle) was K.I.A. A couple months ago I was searching google and found the pilot's daughter has a blog, the pilot and 4 others of the crew of 10 survived. Ready for this? She lives 15 minutes from me. It's been amazing learning the history and soaking up all the information we can while we still can, she is moving in a couple months. This timing of all of this is surreal.

She gave me 2 VHS tapes of her, now deceased, father talking about the war and his experience... and the last few minutes on the plane, when my great uncle was killed. It's unreal to have this after not knowing any of this for the last nearly 70 years. We want to make a backup while we can, we all know VHS tapes degrade.

Ok, I got the tapes. Turns out, they were recorded professionally and actually have good lighting, sound, etc. I'm thinking it should be an ideal transfer. I have a Toshiba VHS/DVD combo player with a dubbing feature, great! right? Not really. I have only used the feature 2 or 3 times, I had purchased it to convert my old home movies to digital, of course, I haven't had time in the years that I have owned it.

I set the player conversion setting to "XP" which (hopefully this is a standard you will understand) is the "highest" quality transfer, only 60 minutes in this mode, I believe. Video played as it was dubbing, cool. Ok, looked great as it was playing! I was actually able to fit both VHS tapes onto the one DVD-R. One video was 15 minutes long and the other was about 45 minutes, perfect fit without cuts. I finalized the disk and popped it into my computer (Windows 7 64bit, core2 Duo, 4 gig ram yadda yadda...). I planned to look into restoring the video (even though it looked good) with software that I would find and purchase. Video opened right up in Windows Media Player.

Problem : It looks awful. It actually looks worse than the VHS. It looks like there is a film over the video that reduces the colors and sharpness. Video image has raster on the edges too (which I wouldn't expect to see in the VHS). Also, there is a fireplace in the background with dancing flames and the fast action of the flames produces fine (BUT VERY DISTRACTING) horizontal lines. I have looked into the lines issue, which, from what I understand, is due to the video being interlaced.

Question: Why does it look so bad???? Shouldn't it be a 1:1? Going from analog to digital should be easy, so I would think. I would equate it with taking a picture of a painting with a 100mp camera. I would expect to see all the detail and clarity. Obviously, if I was going from VHS to DVD we would expect a degradation in quality. Also, the video on the DVD seems to have a little more info (video) on the edges and it doesn't add anything good or useful. At the bottom left, there is a blob of blueish-green-purple (interference?) that seems to be cropped out in the VHS. It moves and morphs, in this position only, as the video is played. At the top, there is a weird anomaly that appears in the upper right from time to time, I'm guessing this is part of the tape counter text.

I spent 10 hours yesterday doing research on this... to no avail. Yeah, I learned why I think I have the lines... but I want high quality. I would think a combo drive would produce the best results. I called Toshiba and the guy must have said "Well, I'd like to apologize, I'm sorry you're having this problem sir" 20 times and had no answers.

When the VHS was being dubbed to the DVD the monitor (TV) showed the VHS feed, which looked great. There were no horizontal lines, the video was pretty "crispy" on the edges and colors were good. It's almost like it compressed the video.

I copied the VOB files onto my computer and put them into a program called virtualdub (I found that mentioned multiple times in forums). It has a lot of filters to "fix" issue. I don't like these fixes. They seem too "one click" and seem to only help the problem to be fixed while reducing something else. I tried a deinterlasing filter and it seems to get rid of the horizontal lines , but the overall quality seems worse (less sharp).

Help: I really want to preserve this history! I want to eventually upload this video onto my website and be able to share it with others.

What method should I use?

I have searched this forum and others. I wouldn't be posting if I didn't, I'm tired and discouraged.

Should I ditch the VHS-DVD combo as the converter? How else can I do it? Hook the VHS part up to my computer? What would I capture with? It's a notebook so I don't have any form of a video in port. I want the video to look good on a computer AND a TV. What can I use to clean up the video. What programs do YOU recommend?

I know a little about this and that... I'm no expert, but work with me.

Help me to preserve this crucial piece of my families and America's history.

I attached 2 cropped screen caps for reference. One to show the poor quality (it's not zoomed in at all, just a crop... and it's maybe 1/16 of the frame) and one to show the horizontal lines.

THANK YOU FOR HELPING!!!

(Sorry if I have typos... I proofed this, but I only got 3 hours of sleep)

[victoriabears]

quality looks nice other than the lines.

First off slow down, if the tapes are in good condition, a few weeks will not make much difference.

Did you fast forward the tapes and back once or twice, VHS tapes stored can get tight, I have seen that result from this possibility.

Shame we do not live round the corner from each other I would love to do the transfer for you.

For two tapes really I would not go through the huge learning curve.

Is the combo on its own power outlet ? Try a different tape and see if you get the same result and play your dvd from the vhs you have already made of this valuable footage on a dvd player you have many ingredients in why it might look bad.

1: Is the combo working properly, hence the suggestion of another vhs tape trial transfer and how is it powered question.

2: Is your computer displaying the recording properly, hence the use a dvd player on a tv suggestion.

You could try and find a professional service or see if there is a local camera/video club

[jagabo]

The "lines" are normal. You have interlaced video and the player isn't deinterlacing it.

The washed out look may be because your graphics card's video proc amp settings are wrong. You should use a video scope to check the levels.

[Boxster]

Thanks for the quick reply!

First off slow down, if the tapes are in good condition, a few weeks will not make much difference.

I agree...100%, but I'd like to get as close to 1:1 while I can, I realize I can always enhance them over time.

Did you fast forward the tapes and back once or twice, VHS tapes stored can get tight, I have seen that result from this possibility.

I never knew this, but it makes sense. I have watched them a few times so I have rewound them. I didn't, however, fast forward it. I'll try this. Are there any methods to "clean" and check the tape? They're in good shape, just curious, I guess for future conversions.

Shame we do not live round the corner from each other I would love to do the transfer for you.

Wouldn't that be great! I think I've used up my convenience coincidences for a while now

For two tapes really I would not go through the huge learning curve.

I don't mind a challenge. I'm a man of many projects, I've always wanted to learn and get better at this

Is the combo on its own power outlet ? Try a different tape and see if you get the same result and play your dvd from the vhs you have already made of this valuable footage on a dvd player you have many ingredients in why it might look bad.

Not sure how this would effect the analog to digital, but you may be onto something in terms of the clarity. I just don't understand why when the VHS is dubbing to the DVD the feed on the screen looks great, but when the DVD is played back, it's iffy. Almost like the VHS feed I'm seeing is different than what is going to the DVD drive.

1: Is the combo working properly, hence the suggestion of another vhs tape trial transfer and how is it powered question.

2: Is your computer displaying the recording properly, hence the use a dvd player on a tv suggestion.

As far as I know, everything is working as it should.

You could try and find a professional service or see if there is a local camera/video club

Money is tight and I'm a perfectionist. I also like the idea of doing it myself. I hate to resort to pro services... also, the tapes are not mine and I can't take on the risk if something happens. Some pros, as I have learned, are average Joes with basic equipment and little skill.

THANK YOU FOR THE REPLY!!!

[Boxster]

The "lines" are normal. You have interlaced video and the player isn't deinterlacing it.

Hmmm... Makes sense, from what I have learned as well. Ok, so that is ON the video... not being generated by the conversion to digital? I don't seem to see it when playing the VHS on a TV which I guess is the reason it works on TV and not on a computer . I still want to be able to get the video on a computer... sans the lines

The washed out look may be because your graphics card's video proc amp settings are wrong. You should use a video scope to check the levels.

Point me in a direction here... I thought that could be an issue too, but my GFX card has the latest drivers and is no slouch, it works well for everything else (nVIDIA GeForce 9600M GS). How can I get/use a video scope? It sounds like a physical devices, is it? I'll start googling again.

Also... What about a TBS (I think that's what it's called...) I can't remember what it stands for, has to do with time based shift I think, it's external and expensive. Would one of those things be helpful? Does it exist in a passive digital form, on a computer instead of an external device?

Thanks for the reply!

[yoda313]

you mean tbc - time base corrector.

If your video isn't very rough at all I don't believe you would need it. Others here would argue otherwise. It depends on how exact you want to get. I always say if you like the quality of the dvd you make than you can stick with the equipment you have.

You would probably be better off getting a svhs player with a tbc in it than an external one (simpler at least if its internal to the vcr than seperate). the svhs player would probably be of better quality on playback than your current setup. And if your combo unit has a svideo input jack you could still use your settop recorder for the dubbing just use the svhs player to play back the tape and record to the combo deck (in the highest quality mode with the shortest running time assuming your video will fit that mode - if it won't then use the next lowest mode or a "best fit" or "auto fit" mode if your dvd recorder has it to maximize the available disc space).

[jagabo]

The "lines" are normal. You have interlaced video and the player isn't deinterlacing it.

Hmmm... Makes sense, from what I have learned as well. Ok, so that is ON the video... not being generated by the conversion to digital? I don't seem to see it when playing the VHS on a TV which I guess is the reason it works on TV and not on a computer . I still want to be able to get the video on a computer... sans the lines

Then you'll need to deinterlace. Currently, the best deinterlacer is QTGMC() in AviSynth but it's very slow. You can also try Yadif(). VirtualDub's deinterlace filter in "Yadif" mode is about the same as AviSynth's and you'll probably find it easier to use. But there are problems with VirtualDub and interlaced MPEG 2 sources.

The washed out look may be because your graphics card's video proc amp settings are wrong. You should use a video scope to check the levels.

Point me in a direction here... I thought that could be an issue too, but my GFX card has the latest drivers and is no slouch, it works well for everything else (nVIDIA GeForce 9600M GS). How can I get/use a video scope? It sounds like a physical devices, is it? I'll start googling again.

It's not unusual for the levels to be set wrong after installing drivers. All the graphic card manufacturers screw this up all the time. Many of the commercial editors like Sony Vegas have video scope features. AviSynth's Histogram() and VideoScope() are good for showing levels. VirtualDub's Levels() filter can show a histogram of the levels. There is also a third part filter called ColorTools that can show levels.

Also... What about a TBS (I think that's what it's called...) I can't remember what it stands for, has to do with time based shift I think, it's external and expensive. Would one of those things be helpful? Does it exist in a passive digital form, on a computer instead of an external device?

There are two types of time base correctors. The simplest, a line TBC, corrects the horizontal jitter that occurs because the spinning head of a VCR doesn't spin at exactly the same speed all the time. This causes individual scan lines to differ in length and horizontal position. A full frame TBC may have some line TBC fucntionality, but its main purpose is to provide a rock steady signal even if the VHS tape drops out. This prevents audio/video sync errors. And many capture devices and software will simply stop capturing if the signal drops out.

You should upload a short sample that shows your problems. A good program to use for this is DgIndex. Mark a small section and select File -> Save Project And Demux Video. Then upload the M2V file it produces.

[lordsmurf]

If this really matters, you should let a professional service handle this -- don't run it through a low-end consumer "dual deck" -- quality will be very low compared to the potential "DVD quality" that could come from tapes in what sounds to be excellent condition.

I think you're going about this the wrong way.

And I don't mean the local strip mall shop, Walgreens or Wolf camera. No quality there, either.
Find a dedicated high-end service online.

Long-term, a service for 2 tapes is more cost effective than buying a room full of gear you'll never use again.

[vhelp]

everyone pointed out many good points. i would add the suggestion to capture these in lossless if possible. you can use virtualdub and the huffy codec--if you have a decent capture card that is. if you are capturing these to mpeg via hardware mpeg-2 device (or dvd record route) then find out what is the maximum bitrate the device will allow and set it to that (usually 9.8MBit/s if dvd recorder) 12 MBit/s to 15 MBit/s on hardware capture cards. make sure that you can configure the mpeg to encode with CBR setting, not VBR, because you want to get as consistant bitrate as possible.

if you capture with a lossless codec (ie huffy) using virtualdub as the capture app, you will eliminate the lossy artifact associated with mpeg-2 encoded (sequenced) images. i highly recommend this method over mpeg2 capture with the exception that you don't have a capture card, or you lack the time and/or patience, or you want quick turn-around, or the last suggestion by lordsmurf.

still, i'd love to see some sample of your captures. i find that many 8mm conversions and deinterlaced comes out better than your usual dv cam deinterlace methods. anyway, please post a few samples (some motion would be appreciated) so we can get an idea of what your setup and its capabiliities are and if improvements will help or not, ty.

[nic2k4]

Unless your monitor is calibrated to display video as it would appear on TV, you can't compare the two. The washed out look might not be so washed out when played back on a TV, but as you intend to put this on the web you'd want to tweak it for PC viewing (at least change it to PC color space).

If your combo recorder is a D-VR7, it's an up-converting player i.e. it increases the video resolution and makes the little squares that form the picture, smaller. If you want a better picture, you'll have to use a USB capture device and capture in a lossless format. Then you'll be able to follow Jagabo's tips to de-interlace and correct the video.

[jagabo]

Start with the video in this clip:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/326496-file-in-Virtualdub-has-strange-colors-when-o...=1#post2022085
Follow the instructions.

[Boxster]

Thanks for all the info! I'm really excited to look into all the helpful info you guys have offered. I will answer some specific questions and post some samples (if I can) in the morning. It's been a long day, I spent hours on this yesterday and had to play catch-up on my real work today, which sadly isn't this.

I love a good challenge and I'm determined to try and do this myself. I'd at least like to get a "quality pull" off the VHS before I resort to sending it out. It will be good insurance too, just in case something goes wrong.

One of the videos was made in 1996 and the other was 1997 I believe. Not too old, but getting there.

This player DOES up-convert! I just checked. I don't know the mechanism for this unit or if it is universal. I'm not sure if that translates to the transfer from VHS to DVD. The unit is a Toshiba D-VR5SU (I've seen it online as D-VR5, not sure what the SU means).

Again, it still perplexes me that the video feed as it's dubbing looks better than the finalized DVD. The bit rate transfer makes perfect sense and I'm sure it is lower than what I could achieve on a computer.

I'm going the watch the video that Jagabo posted, thanks for that.

If I did want to do a capture with my computer (sadly a notebook, but again, no slouch) how would I do so? USB... right? So a "Pinnacle" type external interface (S-video or RCA)?

More in the morning, thanks for the help, so far, everyone!!!

[jagabo]

Again, it still perplexes me that the video feed as it's dubbing looks better than the finalized DVD.

How does the DVD look on the TV when played on the player that recorded it? Recorded at XP it should look pretty close to the VHS tape.

[Boxster]

Here is the levels info... my posting this may be pointless... Any useful info here?

[jagabo]

That looks normal -- of course, I don't know how it looks on your monitor. But you the blacks (15 and below) should be as black as your monitor can display. And the whites (235 and above) should all be the same brightness -- not necessarily as bright as your monitor can display but very bright. Between those two levels you should be able to differentiate each bar.

When you said your DVD video looked bad were you viewing it in VirtualDub or a media player?

[Boxster]

VirtualDub and WMP11. I've been playing with it in VirtualDub.

[nic2k4]

Again, it still perplexes me that the video feed as it's dubbing looks better than the finalized DVD.

With your player up-converting you get a higher resolution picture and probably some tweaking in the player's electronics. Problem is DVD's only work with standard definition (480i or p). Have you played that finalized DVD in the D-VR5?

You're right, a Pinnacle type box is needed to capture on a laptop through the USB port. Most boxes have RCA or S-video inputs and capture in SD, but there are new boxes that have an HDMI input and capture in HD. There may be problems with that if your player doesn't implement HDCP properly and blocks non-commercial video. There's a work around for Avermedia AVerTV HD DVR here.

[Boxster]

Unless your monitor is calibrated to display video as it would appear on TV, you can't compare the two. The washed out look might not be so washed out when played back on a TV, but as you intend to put this on the web you'd want to tweak it for PC viewing (at least change it to PC color space).

When I play the video in full screen, it just looks hazed, not clear and the edges are too smooth, not as sharp as the VHS. My monitors are pretty good (the built-in notebook one and I use a 22" LCD with it for when it's docked at home).

If your combo recorder is a D-VR7, it's an up-converting player i.e. it increases the video resolution and makes the little squares that form the picture, smaller. If you want a better picture, you'll have to use a USB capture device and capture in a lossless format. Then you'll be able to follow Jagabo's tips to de-interlace and correct the video.

Interesting, so the video is up-converting only the playback to the monitor (in this case a tube television), but this same effect is not being transmitted to the DVD. It would seem to make sense that whatever passive processing (up-converting) that is done by the VHS/DVD unit should be able to be done on a computer. However, I still think the transfer is compressed and has lost quality in the transfer... not a true 1:1 as I had hoped it would be. This would make any processing less effective.

I'm more a photographer/phot post processor... I, sadly, haven't had time to really invest time or money into video/video processing. I really love video though. I love making movies and I have used Pinnacle Studio software to make some really neat little films, there just isn't enough time in my life to grow at it. With photographs, if the initial quality if poor, the post processing is MUCH more difficult. I have made out of focus pictures sharp again. It takes HOURS and requires several layer of processing on a SINGLE frame. I can't imagine doing this effect on a video frame by frame. Any 1 click method to this would be to generic to the video and, I fear, result in losses of quality elsewhere.

I direct this question to you, Jagabo, and anyone else that can lend some advice:

If I wanted to take advantage of the RCA (S-video more ideal) output from the VHS player and use some sort of a real-time capture device, what should I get? I have a desktop here, but it's very weak, spec-wise, compared to my notebook. Now, obviously, I cannot add a capture card to my notebook, but I know that they make USB capture devices. I just went on Amazon and spent a good 20 minutes looking a different brands and models. None of them seem to have good reviews and the ones that do only seem to have 1 or 2 reviewers.

What do you recommend I get? If you tell me don't use a laptop, I DO have access to a desktop (HP WIN7, AMD 4-core, 6gig ram... but integrated "mobo" gfx card), but it's not in my home and I'd prefer to do it on the laptop for overall convenience. Do the capture cards work that much better than the USB external ones? Is it the software that makes them bad???

Thanks again for the info and advice, Nic2k4. I apologize for posting a lot of info in this reply as some if it is directed to everyone. I've learned so much from you guys in less than a 24 hour period, it's amazing.

[Boxster]

everyone pointed out many good points. i would add the suggestion to capture these in lossless if possible. you can use virtualdub and the huffy codec--if you have a decent capture card that is. if you are capturing these to mpeg via hardware mpeg-2 device (or dvd record route) then find out what is the maximum bitrate the device will allow and set it to that (usually 9.8MBit/s if dvd recorder) 12 MBit/s to 15 MBit/s on hardware capture cards. make sure that you can configure the mpeg to encode with CBR setting, not VBR, because you want to get as consistant bitrate as possible.

if you capture with a lossless codec (ie huffy) using virtualdub as the capture app, you will eliminate the lossy artifact associated with mpeg-2 encoded (sequenced) images. i highly recommend this method over mpeg2 capture with the exception that you don't have a capture card, or you lack the time and/or patience, or you want quick turn-around, or the last suggestion by lordsmurf.

still, i'd love to see some sample of your captures. i find that many 8mm conversions and deinterlaced comes out better than your usual dv cam deinterlace methods. anyway, please post a few samples (some motion would be appreciated) so we can get an idea of what your setup and its capabiliities are and if improvements will help or not, ty.

I just posted a question on what external (USB) capture device I should get. If I get one, I will try huffy. I'll try and upload some (very short) samples later today.

[nic2k4]

... so the video is up-converting only the playback to the monitor (in this case a tube television), but this same effect is not being transmitted to the DVD.

I should mention that up-conversion only happens on the HDMI and component outputs. In your case, the lower resolution of the TV masks much of the defects in the recording. Another reason to compare the playback of the DVD and VHS on the same TV. I guess all I'm saying is you'll find that you're limited by what the recorder can produce.

[jagabo]

VirtualDub and WMP11. I've been playing with it in VirtualDub.

Since you've been using VirtualDub, go back to your DVD cap. Open one of the VOB files with it. Add the Levels filter. Press Show Preview to open the preview window. Navigate to a frame that should have full black and full bright portions. Preferably a lot of each. Press the Sample Frame button to see a histogram of that frame. Adjust the Input Level sliders so that the one on the left is under the left edge of the histogram data, the right one is under the right edge of the histogram data:



Examine the rest of the video and fine tune if necessary. You may also want to adjust the gamma control in the middle to adjust the mid levels.