hardware solutions for video improvement ?

[gpavlin]

hello ,

i am new on this forum . i have read a lot of posts regarding converting and improving video image from old vhs tapes . but i still have some questions regarding this . and i also didnt find any answers about restoring bad video , that is already on dvd-r media and was converted from vhs tapes . can anything be done here with a hardware .
i have a lot of vhs tapes with old football and basketball games from the mid `70 to mid `90s . i would first like to convert those tapes from pal to ntsc and in the next step i would like to improve picture quality ( reduce noice , correct color , add a litlle detail , sharpen the image just a bit , rid off the ghosting etc ) and the convert this to digital and burn it on dvd-r. i was looking at canopus advc 300 for the second part of the job , didnt look for any good pal-ntsc converter yet ( please recomend a couple ) . i would like to know : do i need separate tbc corrector ( like Datavideo TBC-1000 ) and some sort of proc amp ( like SignVideo PA-100 Single Proc Amp ) with canopus advc 300 to get good results ? do i even need canopus ? what hardware devices would you recomend to get the most improvement from these tapes .
can something like this be done to video that was originaly recorded to vhs tapes and is now already transfered to dvd-r , but was transered without any improvements to video . the tapes were just transfered to dvd-r . can i do anything with those dvd-r to improve them ? i am mostly interested to do that with hardware . if its not possible , please recomend good software for that .
thanks in advance for any help ,

grega

[redwudz]

For the ones already on DVD, you would likely do better with software filtering. For transfers, you could probably use the cheaper ADVC-110 along with a proc amp and TBC and do about the same at a lower cost. The VCR you use will be a major factor to get the best quality from those tapes.

I use VirtualDub most times because it has many available filters. AVISynth would be a better choice as it's much faster and still has many options and filters available. Just a steeper learning curve. These programs will work best with the DV files from the ADVC. For the files already on DVD, you would need to convert them to a AVI type format. Maybe HuffyUV or lagarith for lossless conversion. Or DV, if you are short on space and don't mind some quality loss. You can frameserve the edits from VD or AVISynth to a MPEG encoder to convert back to MPG for DVD.

Those are just my methods. Others may have a better way.

And welcome to our forums.

[gpavlin]

i need to mention that i already have ( for my 2nd hobby - home theatre ) this devices : dvdo EDGE , crystallio 2 , tvone c2-2250A , algolith hdmi flea . can any of these devices help me with image restoration from vhs tapes and dvd-r ,

grega

[2Bdecided]

i would first like to convert those tapes from pal to ntsc

That's going to completely ruin the smooth motion portrayal of the original videos*. Unless you have $50,000 to spend on a pro converter, or are happy with far slower than real-time processing and unpredictable results from an AVIsynth script.

* - assuming they were PAL to start with. If they've already been converted from NTSC to PAL (e.g. by the broadcaster in a PAL country who is re-broadcasting American content) then they might look quite strange already. Any re-conversion should ideally take account of this, or the result could be a real mess.

Cheers,
David.

[Jeroen1000]

Sorry for digging this one up but since I've been working on my home theatre my attention towards restoration dipped a litte

So let's see if it got it straight: to do some serious restoration one needs a TBC, frame syncronizer (this is genlock right?) a color corrector (aka proc amp) a sharpener and a calibrated monitor. Of course one would also need a good analogue to digital converter to complete the chain.

Have I missed something here?

edit: I can think of one more: something that does noise reduction. This is worse than a puzzle!

[lordsmurf]

Ideally the analog-to-digital converter will do more clean-up. Not just advertise it (Canopus products), but actually do something (JVC, Toshiba DVD recorders).

Removing chroma noise is most important, coming from VHS.

Frame sync not always needed, no. Various devices may already embed this, such as DVD recorders. That may not "clean up" the visual signal anyway.

And you only covered the analog video hardware spectrum. You left out audio hardware. And video and audio software was also omitted. Plus the knowledge to use it all, and experience.

There are different kinds of "noise" to reduce. You'll need to be more specific.

[robjv1]

I would actually like to revisit the topic of hardware audio tools. Is there anything anybody favors in here? I almost wouldn't mind some sort of an EQ I could run in my hardware chain to correct for VHS tapes with only a linear audio track that have a lot of that high frequency hissing. Sometimes doing hi-fi is just not feasible or requires tedious editing; like combining the best parts of multiple versions in a frame accurate editor or spending your whole life wearing headphones straining for crackling

[moxiecat]

I'm bringing back this old thread to life because of Robjv1's question that was never answered, which I just ran into today, 10 months after the fact.

LordSmurf mentioned audio hardware in the second to last post, but I cannot find any info on here regarding specific devices. Rob then asked if there was some hardware device that could remove the hiss from VHS tapes with only a linear audio track, but no one answered him.

Over the past few weeks I've had to transfer some VHS tapes just like this with my JVC, and the hiss has ranged from just noticeable to downright distracting. So if there ARE devices out there than can help with this, like there are to improve the picture, that would be great.

Anyone know of any?

[moxiecat]

Well, I came across another old thread where the Vidicraft AVP-100 is mentioned. It has a DNR button that apparently processes the audio and cleans up tape hiss. Member "FulciLives" says there is no other device that can do audio DNR.

I believe him, but seriously?!?... Vidicraft did not put this feature into any other units? I was under the impression that these combo units were not as good as full-fledged proc amps and detailers. (And for those who have this unit-does this feature actually work?)

[victoriabears]

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/archive/hardware-video-processors-and-filters-t239205.html

Always keep the source material in the same format , ntsc/pal, there is no point in spending extra time and money when many dvd players will do the job when you play the results of your time and effort to create a good image.

Hardware solutions as mentioned in the link are a good way if only because you then capture/record in real time rather than the hours software solutions can take, believe me I have done it. You can also see the results immediately.

Using software solutions is tedious as you have to trial and error with filters, but the results can be very very good.

Many vhs tapes recoded in stereo do not play back properly years later, I think it is due to the fact that the track is very close to the edge of the tape, on my JVC VCR's I have had to switch to the mono track for all the reasons mentioned by other folks.

Ensure that any item will work with your local voltage, especially if from the USA/Canada

Suggested hardware are videocraft detailers ii or iii from ebay are the most cost effective

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=vidicraft&_sacat=See-All-Categories

or these guys produce good products.

http://www.signvideo.com/

The good old AVT 8710 can also be really useful, it is marketed by avtoolbox under a few different brands, like CBT

http://www.pixmania.co.uk/uk/uk/1816628/art/av-toolbox/avt-8710.html

[themaster1]

Software is the way to go, the VST plugins of WaveArts are robusts..Assuming you capture the sound in wave, you will have matter for a good job.

Forget the hadrware

link: http://wavearts.com/

[moxiecat]

But even when you switch to the linear or mono track, that is when the hiss happens. That is what I am trying to avoid.

VictoriaBears, I did not know that the Vidicraft Detailers, SignVideo products, or AVT8710 did anything to audio. I'm not sure why you recommended them if they don't. That was my question--nothing to do with video, NTSC/PAL, etc. (I've been through that Hardware Processors thread many times for video processing info.)

Themaster, you could be right. But I was curious as to why LordSmurf made a point of saying: "And you only covered the analog video hardware spectrum. You left out audio hardware" in response to the original poster. I took that to mean that there IS audio hardware out there. (Granted, I probably should take a deep look at his website, which I admit I have not done for this topic.)

[victoriabears]

I was replying the original post.

[moxiecat]

Oh--sorry for the confusion. I would have started a new thread, but I wanted LordSmurf's mention of "audio hardware" to be referenced, as well as Rob's subsequent question, so it seemed easier to just add on.

[robjv1]

Hey thanks for bringing it back up for discussion anyways. It's an interesting topic.

I tend to get OCD about this stuff (as a lot of us do) and about quality and am not always realistic or practical -- in terms of the vast amounts of time I'll spend on something for small increments of improvement. The JVC SR-W5U deck fares MUCH better at tracking hi-fi audio while maintaining picture quality then either my used JVC 7600u and new JVC SR-V101US did. It just doesn't seem as touchy as the other JVC decks.

I've used the AVP-100 for the precise feature you are speaking of and I can tell you that the improvements were fairly minimal with the deck I used it with. I think I'd have more luck with a full fledged equalizer, but in a lot of cases I find the audio settings on my TV provide enough tweaking range to make my DVD captures of tapes with linear audio sound good enough to skip using intermediary steps like software and hardware.

A much bigger issue is -- how do you deal with crackling hi-fi audio when you don't want to revert to linear audio? I think you could probably minimize the problems with an equalizer somewhat or software, but the range in the audio spectrum which all that noise occupies is rather wide, so you would have to gut your audio track pretty hard (but what do I know). The solution for me was just to get a better VCR. What I used to do is do all my video captures with one VCR and then do my audio with my regular Sony VCR that did a better job at maintaining hi-fi audio (though the JVC SR-W5U still does a better job!) and then synch them together using MPEG Video Wizard. I'm glad those days are over!

[lordsmurf]

Audio hardware has been discussed in some of the RESTORE and CAPTURE sections posts at:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/dvd-project-help-9.html

I started to mention audio hardware this year on forums, and I've been slammed with questions ever since.

I appears that I need to write up a post discussing some of the merits, costs and workflows of audio hardware.

And much like video, there's a lot of disagreement, dogma, myth and other BS that clouds the topic.

Remember to PM me when you'd like my response on posts. It's only by luck that I saw this one again.

[moxiecat]

LS, it would be great if you could write up a post! I would have PM'd you if you hadn't seen it. But I thought maybe others would know of some audio hardware too.

In the meantime, I will take a look at the thread you referenced. Thank you.

Rob, thanks for your input on the AVP-100. I was all about tracking down a unit for this feature earlier today, till I saw your review--thankfully! You're right, finding a way to process crackly Hi-Fi audio would be preferable to reverting to the linear track (while always gives a little to a lot of hiss, at least for me).

It's strange that while this forum has discussed TBCs, proc amps, and detailers ad nauseum, very little attention has been given to audio restoration (as least that I've seen...I'm still working through all these many threads!). I'm not knocking the video restoration discussed--it's incredibly detailed and fascinating. Just odd that audio is not discussed as much. I guess it's because fewer hardware tools are available TO discuss. And that's the manufacturers' faults...not ours.

[lordsmurf]

Seeing how the damage to a crackling HiFi is physical to the media, I don't think hardware can filter it. At best, there are some filters in both DiamondCut and Goldwave -- the ones made for LP conversion -- to reduce the crackles. I've done this a lot in past years.

In general, however, it's best to just use the linear track, and false filter it in SoundForge to restore the depth and fidelity as best as possible.

Damaged tapes suck, don't they?

I totally disagree about fewer audio tools. If anything, there are more! Between pro audio tools (expensive!!!) and musical equipment, there's quite a bit. My audio boards come from a guitar center. I use crossover cables bought online to go between the RCA and various connectors. I started out in digital audio years (decade?) before I ever got to digital video! Only in the past few years here have I totally phased out my early 90s toys and tools.

[robjv1]

One thing I'd like to add -- not all VCRs sound the same regarding the linear audio track either -- my JVC SR-7600u makes tapes sound like the have a less high-frequency range then the JVC SR-V101US and SR-W5U decks. I would guess it could have to do with the overall health of the audio components in the deck and what kind of noise/hiss reduction it does (if any). Still as Lordsmurf was sying, probably nothing you couldn't mess with in Soundforge. My big reason behind wanting to use an equalizer in real time versus software was because I would have to re-encode the audio on the PC (since I use a DVD recorder for recordings). You of course can get around this by routing your audio directly into your PC and recording it as an uncompressed WAVE and turning it into an AC3 (or PCM audio, whatever you prefer) on the PC. My PC's sound-card produces it's own additional noise though, so watch for that too, you may be better off with a different sound-card.

[lordsmurf]

Now you've got me curious. I should pull out the backup SR-V10, and see if it differs from the 9800.

[moxiecat]

I don't mind doing it on the computer. However, I do the majority of my DVD transfers via the DVD recorder, not the PC. Which means that I end up with an MPEG/AC3 muxed file after I decrypt what the DVD recorder creates, and re-edit and resave it in Womble Video Wizard.

I have been editing in Womble to remove "beginning of tape" junk and the like. But Womble does not have much in the way of audio work aside from volume settings (at least that I know of).

Is there a program that can easily remove hiss from AC3 files, if the audio is exported from Womble? I have worked in Adobe Soundbooth a few times to do this, but usually only with AIFFs. I'm not sure that program can do AC3 files, but I can check.

[lordsmurf]

You have to demux, decompress back to WAV, and edit that way. The newer Womble MPEG Video Wizard will convert the WAV back to AC3 when you edit.

Because the "junk" often has "dead" space on it -- clean hiss profiles!!! -- I prefer to de-noise prior to the MPEG editing step. When using a DVD recorder as the capture device, at least.

[moxiecat]

Is Soundforge the preferred audio tool for removing hiss? My background is mainly on Mac, which is where I have Soundbooth. I'm familiar with a lot of DVD programs on Windows, but none in audio, so I could use some advice as to which programs to look for for this job.

[moxiecat]

Duh...should have looked at LordSmurf's site first, where there is an entire excellent page devoted to this. Sorry! Going to read that now...

(But if anyone has a recommendation for another software program they like for this, that's cool too.)

[robjv1]

Yeah I was kinda annoyed that the difference in the linear audio quality was so high between the two decks. I was copying some old A&E Evening at the Improv tapes from the 80s and I noticed the quality of the sound was much better then the other tape I'd done and so I checked it out and ended up redoing a bunch of my captures

I'd be curious to hear if you spot any difference, because as I said my HR-7600U was a used deck and the SR-V101 was new, so who knows if had any repairs or replacements done to the audio heads and what not.

[victoriabears]

TMPG express has audio filters, anyone have any opinions, as this is the software I keep going back to.