Inexspenisve upconvert DVD player (Sony vs Philips)

[VonTed]

I am trying to decide what relatively inexpensive up-converting dvd player to get. I only really care about up-converting and being able to play burned movies, although the USB input seems like a nice idea.

I am looking at:
Sony NS701H-B
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-DVP-NS710H-B-Upscaling-Player/dp/B001URY8CI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=U...5790169&sr=1-2

or

Philips DVP5990 / F7
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B001VICORW/ref=ord_cart_shr?_encoding=UT...X0DER&v=glance

either of these clearly better than the other? Should be I considering some other player?

[PhoneMatt]

I went with the Philips for 2 reasons- it is very easy to hack to make it region free (look to the left and click "DVD Hacks") and it plays NTSC and PAL discs. As far as I can see, the picture and sound are really good. Playing .avi's from an external drive into the USB port is a bonus. I have never had a problem playing a burned disc.

Matt

[jman98]

VonTed - You don't really HAVE to get an upconverting player. If you have an HDTV it will upconvert for you if necessary. And if you have a good HDTV like Samsung the TV itself may do a better job of upconverting than a cheap DVD player. A lot of people have this false idea that if they don't get an upconverting DVD player that they are somehow screwed when watching on an HDTV and that's not necessarily true.

[dannyboy48888]

got a nice phillips from best buy. does upconvert, reads 480p divx w/ ar info. plays wmv/wma and will rip a audio cd to a mp3 on the usb stick $49
simple enough for the wife to use

[neomaine]

VonTed - You don't really HAVE to get an upconverting player. If you have an HDTV it will upconvert for you if necessary. And if you have a good HDTV like Samsung the TV itself may do a better job of upconverting than a cheap DVD player. A lot of people have this false idea that if they don't get an upconverting DVD player that they are somehow screwed when watching on an HDTV and that's not necessarily true.

Wouldn't getting a non-upscaling DVD player still output the 480p (usually...) DVD as 480i only to have the TV then convert it again to progressive and then up to the TV's native resolution)?

Even if not upscaling, you should at least get a progressive scan player, true? With a progressive scan player, then I'd agree with your statement: some TVs upconvert 480p to 720/1080p better then some players.

I've tried this with both my 5990 and the XBOX360 (HDMI only). In both cases, I've found that having the player output 1080p to match my TVs native resolution was better then having them set to 480p. It was by no means horrible, but there was a noticable difference. And very much way better than the players output set to 480i. The TV is by no means a chump, a 46" Sharp Aquos LC46D92U.

[jman98]

@neomaine - It's very difficult to find non-progressive scan DVD players. Even the really cheap ones can do that. Hence my advice - a good TV may upscale to 720 or 1080 from a 480p source better than a cheap DVD player will upscale itself to 720 or 1080. I have an old Philips DVD player that outputs 480p and it still looks great on my Samsung LCD HDTV. I do also have a BluRay player which is better and which I mostly use, but I use the old Philips from time to time.

[edDV]

VonTed - You don't really HAVE to get an upconverting player. If you have an HDTV it will upconvert for you if necessary. And if you have a good HDTV like Samsung the TV itself may do a better job of upconverting than a cheap DVD player. A lot of people have this false idea that if they don't get an upconverting DVD player that they are somehow screwed when watching on an HDTV and that's not necessarily true.

Wouldn't getting a non-upscaling DVD player still output the 480p (usually...) DVD as 480i only to have the TV then convert it again to progressive and then up to the TV's native resolution)?

Even if not upscaling, you should at least get a progressive scan player, true? With a progressive scan player, then I'd agree with your statement: some TVs upconvert 480p to 720/1080p better then some players.

As usual, the answer is it all depends. And the answer may differ for progressive movies vs. interlace DVD (e.g. broadcast or camcorder captures). For interlace DVD (480i/29.97 not telecine) you can send several ways from a upscaling progressive DVD player. I'll assume a LCD or plasma HDTV, not CRT or projector.

480i - this puts all the load on the HDTV to separate fields, deinterlace and upscale to native display resolution. This should be the best setting for 120Hz/240Hz field motion interpolation (smoothest motion).

480p - the player does the deinterlace (hopefully a smart bob) to 720x480p/59.54fps. The TV then interpolates more frames and upscales to native display resolution. The difference vs. 480i is the player does the deinterlace.

720p - the player does the deinterlace (hopefully a smart bob) and upscales to 1280x720p/59.54fps. The TV then scales 1280x720p to native display resolution. A second scale is usually necessary since few displays are native 1280x720. For this reason, 480p may get better results vs. 720p.

1080i - the player separates fields and upscales to 1920x1080i. The TV then does the deinterlace, frame interpolation and scales if necessary (not for "Just Scan"). Since most HDTV sets overscan, even 1080i gets an upscale. For this reason, 480i may perform better since it only gets scaled once.

1080p - the player does the deinterlace (hopefully a smart bob) and upscales to 1920x1080p/59.54fps. The HDTV then scales (for overscan) and/or interpolates intermediate frames (for 120/240Hz) or displays directly for cheaper "60 Hz" models with "Just Scan".


For progressive film DVD things are different. 480i and 1080i are sent from the DVD player with telecine. 480p, 720p and 1080p get sent with 2:3 frame repeats at 59.94 fps.

480i - this puts all the load on the HDTV to separate fields, inverse telecine and upscale to native display resolution.

480p - the player does the inverse telecine and frame repeats to 720x480p/59.54fps. The TV then interpolates more frames and upscales to native display resolution. The difference vs. 480i is the player does the inverse telecine.

720p - the player does the inverse telecine and frame repeats and upscales to 1280x720p/59.54fps. The TV then frame interpolates and scales 1280x720p to native display resolution. A second scale is usually necessary since few displays are native 1280x720. For this reason, 480p may get better results vs. 720p.

1080i - the player separates fields and upscales to 1920x1080i. The TV then does the inverse telecine, frame interpolation and scales if necessary (not for "Just Scan"). Since most HDTV sets overscan, even 1080i gets an upscale. For this reason, 480i may perform better since it only gets scaled once.

1080p - the player does the inverse telecine, upscales and frame repeats to 1920x1080p/59.54fps. The HDTV then scales (for overscan) and/or interpolates intermediate frames (for 120/240Hz) or displays directly for cheaper "60Hz" models with "Just Scan".

Since DVD players and HDTV sets all vary for deinterlace, inverse telecine and upscale quality all these modes need to be compared for your particular DVD player-HDTV combination.

I've tried this with both my 5990 and the XBOX360 (HDMI only). In both cases, I've found that having the player output 1080p to match my TVs native resolution was better then having them set to 480p. It was by no means horrible, but there was a noticable difference. And very much way better than the players output set to 480i. The TV is by no means a chump, a 46" Sharp Aquos LC46D92U.

In your case the DVD player did a better processing job than the HDTV. At 1080p your 1080p TV may be upscaling a second time for overscan (unless you have a "just scan" mode). Compare 480p to 1080p modes. 480p would only scale once.


Note: "Just Scan" is Samsung's trade name for no overscan. The TV displays directly often with picture edges showing.

[edDV]

Blue-Ray players have all the above issues when playing a normal DVD (interlace 29.97 or progressive 23.976) but some Blu-Ray players also have 23.976 ("24P") mode for progressive film source.

In this "24P" mode, progressive film DVD or Blu-Ray data is sent over HDMI at 23.976 frames per second instead of the normal 2:3 frame repeat at 59.94 fps.

In theory, there should be no difference in display quality for progressive film material sent 1080i/29.97 (with telecine), 1080p/59.94 (with frame repeats) or 1080p/23.976. The TV should be able to inverse telecine 1080i to progressive 23.976 fps or remove repeat frames from 1080p/59.94. In practice, 1080p/23.976 mode may be less error prone.

[samijubal]

My Panny plasma looks better with the player on 480i than 480p. The only thing that looks better on 480p is text when paused. There's less artifacts on 480i.

The TV's upscaler with an '04 JVC player is better than the cheapo Philips/Funai upconvert player I've got.

[edDV]

My Panny plasma looks better with the player on 480i than 480p. The only thing that looks better on 480p is text when paused. There's less artifacts on 480i.

The TV's upscaler with an '04 JVC player is better than the cheapo Philips/Funai upconvert player I've got.

It all varies. An oppo progressive player may beat your Panny plasma. It needs testing for each combination.

[MOVIEGEEK]

I have had many different players(DVD,HD-DVD and BD) hooked up to my HDTV and they all give different results because of their video processors/deinterlacers. I have a highly rated OPPO 970 that looks like crap when it outputs 1080i but looks great on 480p, I also have a cheap Philips 5982 that does a better job with 1080i than 480p.
The bottom line is you have to try different settings to see what looks best on your TV.

[neomaine]

edDV,

Thanks for the consise explanation and clarification of my meager attempt. Really, thanks... Being the family/local geek, I tend to get questions like this and like to be able to give basic, but more importantly - correct - answers.

I guess what I still need to clarify is that, given a progressive movie DVD, wouldn't it be better to have a progressive scan player? Otherwise, given either a non-progressive scan dvd player or a progressive scan player set to output 480i, aren't you having the player interlace a progressive video only to have it de-interlaced on the display again?

I know I'm missing a small piece here...