Magnovox/Funai 2160 recorder; video AGC issues. Suggestion for a TBC

[videobruce]

That dreaded three letter acronym; AGC, has done me in again. Other than this recorder has the worlds worst analog tuner (very rolled off video) that I have ever saw since my experiance with a Panasonic industrial single speed VHS decks tuner back in the early 80's, now I find the video AGC is overly sensistive.

Coming off a JVC S-VHS HR-5800U (one of their best models), with video that was copied from 2nd generation 3/4" to S-VHS this Funai video AGC pumps up the level to clipping level and also causes 'flashing' depending on scene content. Before anyone mentions either Macrovision, bad tape, excessive level either durning recording or playeback, none of that is the case here. I have checked the output on a scope and it is fine. The video plays back fine (as good as 2nd 3/4 to S-VHS can) without the Funai, but even in the E-E mode, it looks bad.

I have around 10-12 different tapes where this is a issue. These were all shot by myself back in the 80's when I use to do production. I wished I kepted the camera orginals, but the cost of 3/4" was too high then.

Which brings me to the question; has anyone else had problems? The only solution (other than to dump this Funai POS) would be a TBC. After reading a couple of the dated threads on these recent consumer TBC's, namely the Data Vison TBC-1000 and the AV Tool AVT-8710, I wasn't too overly impressed with this plastic AV-8710 that overheats and I'm not too sure about this other one.
I also see this TVOne (that I have heard of before) CTB-530, but I don't know if that would be any better. It seems spending a couple of hundred on a 20 year old TBC that sold for $5k at the time would be a better idea.

Input??

[videobruce]

45 views and no suggestions??

[orsetto]

These DVD recorders are consumer devices, designed primarily for off-air recording. They manage OK with most VHS, but here and there some of them go totally off the rails and you're better off either switching to another recorder entirely or opting for a PC-based encoder. The Magnavox 2160 is a nifty machine at a bargain price, but a significant minority of users report their examples have black-level issues or other anomalies that cause difficulty with some source material.

An external TBC is probably not going to help you: all that will do is stabilize the sync. The DataVideo TBC-1000 is a bad match when connected to a JVC tbc/dnr VCR, you end up with compounded image softening. The flimsier AVT-8710 has sharper image output and includes decent proc-amp controls the DataVideo lacks. Its possible you might be able to correct your issues with the AVT, but very unlikely with the DataVideo. While the older "used to cost $5000 but now going for $50 on eBay" professional TBCs seem tempting, I recommend avoiding them. Most are horribly worn out, pass a terrible image, and have oxidized control knobs that only make things worse when you adjust them. I have tried "pro" TBCs from Fortel, Panasonic, Prime Image, and For.A: all were stinko compared to the newer, less noisy "consumer" DataVideo or AVT.

Second-generation tape is a tough input for any DVD recorder, but some handle it better than others. You might try getting your hands on a recent Canadian Pioneer model such as 450, 550, 650, 460, 560 or 660. These have proper black level and accept even sketchy tape input without serious issues. Certain older Toshiba XS models were also good for this, although some Toshiba samples had black level issues and its hard to know until you get the unit. Even the recent Panasonic import model EH-67 copes with 2nd-gen tape input better than the Magnavox. Of course, none of these machines is easy to find and each costs upwards of $350, but they are an alternative.

I would suggest sending a PM to LordSmurf, he's the resident expert on VH regarding "impossible" tape-to-DVD transfer issues. He may be able to recommend a setting on the AVT, or a PC encoding setup that would handle your specific problem.

[videobruce]

An external TBC is probably not going to help you: all that will do is stabilize the sync.

From my experiance with video AGC problems, I would disagree. If you re-read my OP, the material is fine played back on the VCR, it's the 'loop' (E-E) of the maggy that messes things up. I ran some test tapes through the 'loop' and they played ok. No jigh video levels or 'flashing' as these camera tapes show. That all tells me it's those tapes. probably from that ICM video proc amp I used back then. These are all from the 80's.

I looked at those devices you mentioned. I read that AVT gets very hot and stops working when it does. That Datavideo would be out of the question with no proc amp controls. A TBC with no proc amp controls?? I don't think so. The only current 'cheap' TBC I might consider would be that CBT530, but I didn't want to go that high for such a limited use.

While the older "used to cost $5000 but now going for $50 on eBay" professional TBCs seem tempting, I recommend avoiding them. Most are horribly worn out, pass a terrible image, and have oxidized control knobs that only make things worse when you adjust them. I have tried "pro" TBCs from Fortel, Panasonic, Prime Image, and For.A: all were stinko compared to the newer, less noisy "consumer" DataVideo or AVT.

That doesn't make my day. I just put a offer in for a Hotronic AP41 for $120. How can a TBC be "worn out" other than 'dirty pots' (which can be cleaned)??

BTW, I was exaggerating when I said $50.

[orsetto]

From my experiance with video AGC problems, I would disagree. If you re-read my OP, the material is fine played back on the VCR, it's the 'loop' (E-E) of the maggy that messes things up.

Maybe yes, maybe no. It isn't always clear exactly whats causing the interaction between tape and DVD recorder. I've been fooled a number of times into thinking an external TBC would help, but it didn't, while the weaker internal TBC in a vcr like your JVC licked the problem. If the JVCs own circuits can't fix it, you may or may not get any further with an external TBC. Of course, I hope you get lucky and it works for you: it would make life easier!

I just put a offer in for a Hotronic AP41 for $120.

The Hotronic AP41 is not "ancient" and worn out like most of the other pro TBCs people look at on eBay: its more like a souped-up DataVideo TBC-1000. I haven't used it myself but others have filed good reports on it. Because its still a fairly current "pro" model with modern circuitry, it comes and goes on eBay. Sometimes its close to its "pro" price, sometimes its affordable: it changes weekly like a lot of eBay items. If you can snag one under $300 its probably an excellent buy. You do have to be wary of preconceptions, however: the AVT-8710 is one of the finest TBCs you can use. While it is indeed rather flimsy, and some have overheating problems, for its list price its pretty amazing and its optimized specifically for typical VHS to DVD issues that "pro" TBCs can be less effective on. The overheating is a big deal only if you plan on doing transfers around the clock: for more casual one-or-two tapes a day use, its perfectly fine. It just doesn't like being powered on 24/7.

How can a TBC be "worn out" other than 'dirty pots' (which can be cleaned)??.

Easily: they've been jammed into an overloaded rack, running round the clock for years on end. They are filled with more dirt and dust than you can imagine, which causes overheating and premature failure of circuits. Open one of these babies up, and you'll discover they're made of hundreds of discrete components, all of which can and do burn down after years of heavy use. You would also be astonished how flimsy and cheap the pots are on some of these $2000-4000 units: they make the knobs in the AVT seem like ALPS. They are so crummy they completely corrode after a few years: spray some cleaner on them, and they disintegrate altogether. Not fun.

"Pro" does not always mean "best for you". The DataVideo is extremely well-made (though limited in scope) and bears comparison to any rack-mount TBC I've seen. The AVT is hardly sturdy, but it uses a handful of specialized ICs that are far less subject to age-related failure. The fact you can buy the AVT or DataVideo brand new for under $500 also counts in their favor. (A clean recent Hotronic AP41 would be similar, and a better risk than one of the old, big rack-mount monster TBCs).

[videobruce]

they've been jammed into an overloaded rack, running round the clock for years on end.

Sounds as "burned out" would be a better term.

They are filled with more dirt and dust than you can imagine

Na. You are talking about 'professional' installations with round the clock maintenance.

I'm the last one to look at a 'boat anchor'. I do realize that most of the members here would consdier any 'rach mount' device to be 'huge' and undesireable. I'm just surprised you praise this 'cheap plastic thing' the AVT8710. When I read some reviews of this (here I beleive) about the overheating, I just considered the market it was designed for. One would think they would redesign the heat sink.
While we are on the subject, why no pwr. switch?? That is the first (partial) deal breaker for me. It's not that expensive to include a switch, especially when these are know to overheat. Even morte reason to have the switch. That doesn't say well for the manufacture AFAIC.

Lastly, it's alot easier to service indivual components as opposed to a flat pack LSI's. [/b]

[vatkat234]

The older Panasonic DVD recorders like the E80H and E85H have great TBC built in. I had a lot of problems recording VHS with ATI All IN Wonder and a my old Dazzle 2 at times with some tapes. But the Panasonic E80H could take any tape and record it with no audio problem at all.

[orsetto]

I've never heard of the Panasonic filters being helpful for audio sync issues, so thats a useful tip! Unfortunately the Panasonic EH80 and EH85 fall into the "unobtainium" category: good luck finding one used for under $400. I gather you can get most of the Panasonic stabilizing benefits from the far cheaper ES10 or ES-15, typically available on eBay for $70 or less. Even if the burner is broken, you can use an ES-10 or ES-15 as a pass-thru filter. Some people don't care for the "look" of Panasonic image processing, however, so you'd have to run some tests to determine whether you would want to routinely include a Panasonic in your hardware chain (a good idea with any brand of any device).