I Want to Understand the MAC Mystic

[SCDVD]

I am looking for a better understanding about the MAC users' reasons for using a MAC. Specifically, what is better about the MAC from a user's perspective? I don't want to hear the tired diatribe stuff such a "No viruses" or other useless blather. I'm also not interested in the fan boy stuff either. I don't "love" PCs and I don't "love" MACs. I am interested in what you can do on a MAC that you can't do on a PC. Is the preference based on nothing more than someone not wanting to change after becoming familiar with the MAC environment? If so, I can understand that. Change is a pain because it feels awkward at first. That is true not only for the platform itself but also applications even if on the same platform. It just seems to me that if someone is willing to limit the number of available applications as is the case on a MAC, there needs to be compelling reason(s) to limit oneself in that way. There also should be a reason why someone is willing to spend more for a MAC that a PC.

[edDV]

I see it as a continuum of gated community to big city life.

The Mac is a controlled environment with limited acceptable ways to do things. The hierarchy sets goals and strategy. Applications and drivers need to follow strict rules of conformance and require approval. At extreme, the community disciplines members to follow acceptable behavior. The focus is on education of the user rather than user participation in development. There are gates to the outside world (Parallels/VMWare/Linux) but most users stay inside the gates.

Windows is a middle ground with loose central control and room for neighborhood self-governance in the various vertical applications. This applies to Video, CAD, Medical, Engineering, Groupware, etc. applications where many parallel solutions are provided with little central control from Microsoft.

Then there is Linux which operates mostly as user consensus with very limited central control.

[SCDVD]

Do you think there is a social reason that leads a person to become (or remain) a MAC user such as the need to conform or be accepted by peers? The reason I ask is that there is an unexplainable attitude in MAC users that I have talked to. They don't seem able to objectively discuss their MAC preference.

[edDV]

Do you think there is a social reason that leads a person to become (or remain) a MAC user such as the need to conform or be accepted by peers? The reason I ask is that there is an unexplainable attitude in MAC users that I have talked to. They don't seem able to objectively discuss their MAC preference.

Similar to a country club or religious sect?

Not all are like this but there are some.

[SCDVD]

The thing that stimulated my interest in this was a discussion I had with a customer who is creating a DVD that requires a complex menu structure. Among other things, it exceeds the maximum of 99 elements that is specified in the DVD spec. He uses FCP and DSP. I explained to him that the VMG structure would be a good way to solve the structural problems he had. I suggested that he consider DVD Lab Pro (which I like) because it supports VMG authoring. The clear message that I got from him is that if DLP runs on a PC, then that is out of the question. His comments made it clear that the only reason was his platform bias. It seemed so strange to me that this bias was stronger than finding a solution to his authoring problem. This is a commercial endeavor that he is in but still his platform bias seemed to be a stronger element than the need to solve a business related problem.

[rumplestiltskin]

Speaking as a Mac user...it's the OS. For my needs (and that doesn't include DVDs with >99 elements), I can do it all on my Mac. When I have need for a Windows app (Access is the only one I occasionally require), I run Parallels/XP/Office.

I'm sure you can specify some sort of task that you can't do (or do easily) on a Mac but that holds true for PCs running Windows (or Linux, etc.). You use what works and what you're comfortable with.

Frankly, if the job requires that "VMG"(?) thing running under XP, you should help your customer do it with Parallels (or BootCamp) so he'll love you more for it. Then the "solution" becomes a "you can use this temporarily just to get the job done" instead of a "you have to buy a PC and commit to finding a location to put that damn thing somewhere". It's all in the way you deal with it.

[macbuz]

There also should be a reason why someone is willing to spend more for a MAC that a PC.

I believe when the apples and oranges are sorted out the two platform 'boxes' achieve substantial parity.

[videopoo]

Yeah...it doesn't make sense to me why any professional would limit themselves to one OS if that system doesn't do what you need. I own a Mac for 2 reasons: FCP and DVDAfterEdit. I author my titles with Scenarist but when it comes to pre-mastering I always go to the Mac and AfterEdit for writing my DLTs. Editing is done on FCP - its simply the best editor for what I do.

I think it might be the interface. I know Explorer on XP frightens some.

[Frobozz]

"Mystique?" It's just a computer. I've used Macs for 20 years and they do what I want them to do most of the time. The OS and applications are reasonably intuitive and meet my needs. But if I was your customer and needed a PC to get the job done then I'm glad to have my problem solved.

[SCDVD]

I am not a PC missionary. That's not my point. FCP is a great editing program. DSP is a "fair to middlin" authoring program. My customer had a need for an authoring program to solve a specific authoring requirement that he is going to make money on. I suggested a solution and it just seemed strange that his only concern was that it was a PC application. I got the feeling that he thought that was some kind of sin or something.

@rumplestiltskin; I don't feel that I need to use some sort of persuasive psycology on him to "trick" him into using a PC to "temporarily get the job done". I'm not his mother trying to get him to eat his vegetables. I sure don't need him to "love me."

[mhar4]

If it's a serious question, then the answer for me is that in terms of functionality a Mac seems to be able to do everything a PC can do, but the Mac environment is far more integrated, so all the core Apple applications work fully together, and non-Apple applications built on the core OS technologies also work as a whole.

[rumplestiltskin]

{snip}...@rumplestiltskin; I don't feel that I need to use some sort of persuasive psycology on him to "trick" him into using a PC to "temporarily get the job done". I'm not his mother trying to get him to eat his vegetables. I sure don't need him to "love me."

I guess I'm confused, then. I thought the whole point of business was to have your customers want to be your customers. So go ahead and tell him what you think and then you won't have to worry about getting him to eat his vegetables.

[greymalkin]

{snip}...@rumplestiltskin; I don't feel that I need to use some sort of persuasive psycology on him to "trick" him into using a PC to "temporarily get the job done". I'm not his mother trying to get him to eat his vegetables. I sure don't need him to "love me."

I guess I'm confused, then. I thought the whole point of business was to have your customers want to be your customers. So go ahead and tell him what you think and then you won't have to worry about getting him to eat his vegetables.

yeah man, cause you know how sensitive those limp-wristed mac users are...

WOOOO! I couldn't help myself.

My friends have a mac..one of the ones where everything is built into a slick lcd monitor..and it's nice..very nice..and for the vast majority of computer users it does everything they want and more. But the fact remains that for some purposes you just need to go with another platform. Is the mac incapable of doing it all? No...but the strength of the mac (the tightly integrated software for responsiveness/ease of use) is also it's weakness as the software availability isn't as broad as the PC..perhaps it's easier to program for PC where the rules aren't so strict...

[victoriabears]

I would put it simply, MAC users I know are not interested in "manipulating" a computer as a hobby, like many who use other electronics, VCR's, DVD recorders etc, they just want to turn it on and use it. Not understand it.

[SCDVD]

{snip}...@rumplestiltskin; I don't feel that I need to use some sort of persuasive psycology on him to "trick" him into using a PC to "temporarily get the job done". I'm not his mother trying to get him to eat his vegetables. I sure don't need him to "love me."

I guess I'm confused, then. I thought the whole point of business was to have your customers want to be your customers. So go ahead and tell him what you think and then you won't have to worry about getting him to eat his vegetables.

What's to be confused about? I am extremely supportive of my customers. Don't try to spin it another way to sidestep the point I was trying to make. I told him in considerable detail how he could accomplish what he wanted to do. I volunteered to spend time with him to show him how to use DVD Lab Pro. I offered to let him use a PC in our office if he wanted to. I'm not going to let you get by with that one. The thing that I'm talking about is his not very veiled "PCs are evil" attitude. I felt like I was trying to tempt someone to commit a mortal sin or something!

Everyone keeps saying a MAC is more "integrated". More integrated how? Please don't just recite the mantra from the book of Jobs in the gospel of Apple. Tell me how. Give me some examples. If someone is willing to give up the vast array of applications that are available on a PC and spend more money as well, it seems to me that they should get something really wonderful in return. Just what might that "wonderful" be?

I have a graphics designer who is ambidextrous (Uses both PCs and MACs) who thinks people who are blindly loyal to MACs are nuts. When she heard about my customer who has an apparent PC phobia, she said. "that guy needs some professional help."

So, one more time, HOW is a MAC more "integrated" than a MAC?

[ffooky]

I have Leopard, Ubuntu 8.10 and XP bootable on both my Intel Macs. I personally spend 95% of the time in OS X, enjoy fiddling around in Ubuntu and boot into XP on the very rare occasions I can't accomplish something with the other two. When my kids are home the iMac runs Windows so they can game. Did I pay a premium to allow me to use all the major platforms with no hacking or problems keeping them all updated ? Yes.

I am, however, completely satisfied with my computing life, prefer OS X of all OSes I've ever used and am able to absolutely everything I want or need to. Windows 7 looks pretty tasty so far and I expect it'll end up on my machines assuming compatibility with current software. I use GUI applications when convenient and the command line when it's more effective.

I've no interest in upgrading the hardware outside of RAM; by the time the graphics chip in the big iMac can't cope with the games du jour it'll be out of warranty and it'll still be a fantastic TV/movie viewer/browser until something dies that's not cost effective to repair. I'll be left with a beautiful but unusable display but that's the downside of an AIO machine whether it runs OS X, Windows or whatever.

[MacDSL]

"So, one more time, HOW is a MAC more "integrated" than a MAC? "


Here's how. When I hit command+p the print dialog box comes up. No matter what program i am using.
When I hit command+n a new file is generated in no matter what program I am using.
When I hit command+q the application quits no matter what program i am using.

I believe this is what your customer means by "integrated"

[ffooky]

So, one more time, HOW is a MAC more "integrated" than a MAC?

In that there's such a limited range of Apple products that all hardware, software and updates *should* work with all hardware that isn't overly outdated, though that's about to change with Snow Leopard which will finally draw a line under the PPC machines and will have fewer benefits for the single core Intel models.

I suppose the other integration is between all the various Apple applications themselves but I imagine the same obtains for Microsoft-produced stuff.

[SCDVD]

"So, one more time, HOW is a MAC more "integrated" than a MAC? "


Here's how. When I hit command+p the print dialog box comes up. No matter what program i am using.
When I hit command+n a new file is generated in no matter what program I am using.
When I hit command+q the application quits no matter what program i am using.

I believe this is what your customer means by "integrated"

Thank you. That's a real answer although it is shrouded in PC ignorance. I gather this allows a more consistent usage style. Personally I hate continually taking my hand off the mouse to invoke keyboard command inputs. On my computer, I click the print icon in the application and the print dialog box comes up. To me that is easier.

By the way, if a PC user wants to use a retrograde and more primitive user style and pretend that they are using a MAC, they can. Here is a link to a web page that shows some of these "retrograde" style user commands in Windows. http://www.itexperience.net/2008/03/02/run-commands-windows-key-combinations-and-more/

So to anyone who is able to grasp the different name for the key, Control (Ctrl) is the magic key with Windows instead of Command. For example, if you hit Ctrl + P, guess what, the printer dialog box appears! Schzamm, magic huh?

So, I'm still waiting. Please someone tell me how the MAC OS is more "integrated"?

[terryj]

A Mac, simply is intergrated in that Apple's rigid Human Interface standards,
along with design asthetic, OS compatability, etc. make it so that
any Application maker who wants to create a program for the OS must
make certain things uniform. This uniformity makes the computer for
many, very easy to use and handle, and takes the learning curve
off of many, from 6 to 65.

Example: I attended a learning seminar
today for Gifted and Talented kids at a local elementary school
(5th grade). Since our business supports their technology needs,
we always send a few techs out to "rah-rah" and be the faces
of goodwill, even when we aren't out to service problems, etc.

The 5th graders in this program were explaining several of the
projects they were creating, one in particular I remember was
a Podcast and Presentation on the art of Stomp Dance.
They built the whole thing using iMovie 08, iPhoto 08 and Keynote.
( and for us video hounds, Sony DCR-HC96 Handycams, but I digress...)

A teacher, who was older in the audience asked how long did it take them?
They said from start to finish it took the four of them 2 weeks,
working on it for about 45 minutes a day in class.

When another teacher asked did they have problems learning how
to put it all together, they said that they didn't because the
commands to do what they wanted on the computers
( 17in G5 White iMacs) were the same
in each application, as far as cutting, pasting, adding files, etc.

That type of Intergration, is what builds users. Now I didn't say
loyalty, because let's face it, fast forward 10 to 15 years and
put them in a job and they may have to do that job on
an HP, DELL, whatever the company they work for is contracted
to buy to meet their technology needs ( and we all know who
makes THOSE decisions). But, it does build users of the Mac.
And those users may go into creative fields, were they'll still
use a mac, or they'll buy one for the house. *shrugs*

For many of us Americans, ease of use ( less of a learning curve)
means more to us than getting the job done.

If I was in your shoes, SCDVD, I would have sized up the customer's
age, ( which often leads to an indicator of their temperment, just
ask Lord Smurf ) and would have sat him down, on my MBP running
OSX and WXP, and showed him under Parallels how to do what he wanted.

I don't think the problem with the guy was he was "freakishly bonded to his OS of choice" moreso than he was more afraid of losing that
"ease of use" factor and has a fear of the unknown.

I deal with alot more Americans on a day-to-day basis in that mentality,
and rather than risk the loss of a sale ( which Is another reason why
I'm not in sales) I would have shown him in something akin to his
environment how he could accomplish his task, without
learning that much.

And had he freaked out after that little demo, then you would have known
it's not the loyalty to the mac that has him twisted, but his inability
to want to learn ONE MORE THING which he may not be comfortable with.
There are MORE people like that than you know...

[MacDSL]

No, it's not true that if you hit Control+P in any application that the print dialog box comes up. It's just barely over half-true in the PC applications that I need to use.

But that one instance is not the point. We are talking in generalized terms. You asked a "how" question that has infinite possible answers.

But another example I have used to answer to your question of integration is:

Macs are created, designed, built, and the interface is designed by essentially one company. They do the R&D, they do the support, the creation, and the distribution..

It's not unlike a car, where you go to that company for all of the support, problems, and maintenance that you need for that car. Applications can be considered aftermarket add-ons for the car that are specifically supported by that company.....

Yes you can break that argument down, but remember I am trying to guess what your customer is meaning. You have to take my comment in generalized terms, we are talking about a generalized meaning of "integrated" not any specific single experience...

Microsoft does not make cars. They make an after-market part that goes on the hardware (car in this example)

Apple cannot take a support call and refer you to another company for an out-of-the-box bare bones problem. This maybe what your customer is trying to convey when he/she means "integrated"

Hope this helps...

[SCDVD]

Thanks terryj. That answer makes sense. I think the better word is consistency rather than integrated. There is good and bad to that. The good is as you say, the user interface in various applications is more instantly intuitive because of its uniformity. The bad is that applications developers are constrained in how they organize the user interface within an application so that it conforms to the "standard". It could be argued that this can get in the way of user interface enhancements within a specific application that make that particular application easier to use.

As for my customer, I think it was a combination of the fear of something new (and potentially embarrassing) plus an overdeveloped feeling of platform loyalty. He is fairly young. I suppose he learned on a MAC and that is all he knows. Social acceptance is a powerful force with younger kids. They are afraid of not conforming to the established norms of their peers. But I wasn't trying to convert him to a PC. It doesn't matter to me what kind of computer he uses. I was simply trying to help him solve a complex DVD menu design problem.

[JohnnyMalaria]

"So, one more time, HOW is a MAC more "integrated" than a MAC? "


Here's how. When I hit command+p the print dialog box comes up. No matter what program i am using.
When I hit command+n a new file is generated in no matter what program I am using.
When I hit command+q the application quits no matter what program i am using.

I believe this is what your customer means by "integrated"

Hmmm. Just about every Windows app brings up a print dialog for Ctrl-P, new document for Ctrl-N, save for Ctrl-S, quit for Ctrl-Q etc etc. And have done for at least 15 years. Apple and Microsoft both have clear design recommendations to ensure the user has a consistent experience. I'm sure most hardened Windows users find nearly every application to be intuitive as far as the menu structure goes - same for Apple users.

There are, of course, exceptions - often from freeware authors but also every application ever conceived of by Adobe (on both platforms) and that monumentally horrific dung head known as Lotus Notes. Everyone knows that F5 refreshes things in Windows - not with Notes - it locks you out. Lotus' excuse - 'we want to provide a common interface for Mac and Windows users, so we created one that breaks the design rules for both'.

I find it inconceivable that every Mac app follows the "rules" - especially since I have proven that to be incorrect(!)

[lordsmurf]

that in terms of functionality a Mac seems to be able to do everything a PC can do.

Only in potential.
Mac OS X stills lacks a lot of software that can be found in Windows, especially when it comes to niche video tasks. Mac is pretty well basic in the video world, confined to DV editing mostly. Even something as simple as copying DVDs is very limited on Mac.

It's pretty disappointing, actually.

That all relates back to how controlled the Mac environment is.

As far as learning Mac, there's not much to learn. By and large, it works the same as Windows XP. I use both machines all the time. The Mac less often, because it does less of what I need. But when I need it, I need it. It's all about the software too, it has nothing to do with "it's a Mac" -- but rather Quark, DVDSP, FCP, some others.

A lot of Mac stuff is baloney. The various dogma of "doesn't get a virus or spyware", or even the "command+P always prints in any software" isn't actually true. It's all myth. Yeah, that might be how things are on average, most of the time, but it's not 100% absolute.

[JohnnyMalaria]

A Mac, simply is intergrated in that Apple's rigid Human Interface standards,
along with design asthetic, OS compatability, etc. make it so that
any Application maker who wants to create a program for the OS must
make certain things uniform

Must??? Seriously?

Microsoft have user interface standards, too. But they don't send police to look at your software to ensure it meets them. I fail to believe that there isn't one application for OS X that commits felonious GUI design. Now, if you are talking about getting an official Apple logo (or whatever it is) then that's different. For software to get a Certified for Microsoft Windows logo, it has to jump through some serious, serious hoops which including many more things than user interface design.

Seems a tad FUDdish to me. But then again I fail to understand Hummer drivers that consider my 16-year old Explorer woefully inadequate.

Start here for MS' user interface guidelines (100s of pages):

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd378766.aspx

Note, there is an extremely heavy emphasis on accessibility.

[lordsmurf]

Mac has freeware too, and it's just as bad as Windows freeware, when it comes to following standards.

[SCDVD]

I belong to a Videographers association with 80+ members. There has been a continual migration away from MAC to PC with the members. The PC to MAC user ration is now at least 4 to 1 in favor of the PC. Why? More tools on the PC and Apple's pissy attitude about Blu-ray. More and more clients are requesting that their job be delivered in both Blu-ray and standard DVD.

These videographers are making a living from their work. They need optimal tools that aid and simplify that endeavor. They aren't interested in being "good little members" of anyone's fraternal order, Apple or anyone else.

[terryj]

Thanks terryj. That answer makes sense. I think the better word is consistency rather than integrated. There is good and bad to that. The good is as you say, the user interface in various applications is more instantly intuitive because of its uniformity. The bad is that applications developers are constrained in how they organize the user interface within an application so that it conforms to the "standard". It could be argued that this can get in the way of user interface enhancements within a specific application that make that particular application easier to use.

As for my customer, I think it was a combination of the fear of something new (and potentially embarrassing) plus an overdeveloped feeling of platform loyalty. He is fairly young. I suppose he learned on a MAC and that is all he knows. Social acceptance is a powerful force with younger kids. They are afraid of not conforming to the established norms of their peers. But I wasn't trying to convert him to a PC. It doesn't matter to me what kind of computer he uses. I was simply trying to help him solve a complex DVD menu design problem.

You and I are on the same page then my friend.

And your right about the peer thing among kids....It also is my number three reason for support calls
to many of the Elementary schools we service. Some kid is pressured to try and "monkey" with
the piece of equiptment they are tasked to learn on, not customize.
And Then the educator is freaked out and I have to come and reset/re-image the machine
to undo what the kid did to show off to his buddies.
aah, youth....

[terryj]

I belong to a Videographers association with 80+ members. There has been a continual migration away from MAC to PC with the members. The PC to MAC user ration is now at least 4 to 1 in favor of the PC. Why? More tools on the PC and Apple's pissy attitude about Blu-ray. More and more clients are requesting that their job be delivered in both Blu-ray and standard DVD.

These videographers are making a living from their work. They need optimal tools that aid and simplify that endeavor. They aren't interested in being "good little members" of anyone's fraternal order, Apple or anyone else.

The Blu_Ray Push and meeting clients demands I could understand.
So are the mac users then upgrading to Toast 10 and buying
standalone external Blu-Ray Drives? Kitting and building their own
external DVD Blu-Ray Burners? Would be curious to know....

[SCDVD]

The Blu_Ray Push and meeting clients demands I could understand.
So are the mac users then upgrading to Toast 10 and buying
standalone external Blu-Ray Drives? Kitting and building their own
external DVD Blu-Ray Burners? Would be curious to know....

Video pros using Toast? You've got to be kidding. That is a bit like suggesting that a Pro use Nero on a PC. There are only a couple of MAC die hards in the group. They are using Premiere or FCP. One of the Premiere users has an external Blu-ray burner. I don't know about the others. The other couple of MAC loyalists aren't addressing Blu-ray yet. But as I said, these people are professional videographers who are earning their living at what they do. They are primarily interested in doing / learning / buying whatever it takes to improve and grow their business. I also notice the same thing with cameras. I haven't noticed any loyalists fan boys who stick with the fraternal order of Sony, Canon, Panasonic etc. Most of them have multiple cameras from different manufacturers. A pro considering cameras is looking for functionality, performance and cost. Brand allegiance takes a back seat to these considerations.

Also, you can forget "integrated" or "consistent" with Premiere. To Adobe, their applications trump the host OS with respect to the application user interface. Why? Well, one reason is that a Premiere user for example can sit down and use Premiere on either platform with only very minor differences on a MAC or PC. A professional Premiere user could give a tinkers damn about the "bureau" of standards in Cupertino, CA or Redmond, WA.