Creating a menu with more than 100 chapters

[rmanal]

Hello,

I would like to create a menu composed of hundreds of pictures with one chapter per pictures in order to navigate between them (next chapter or previous chapter with my remote controller).
In order to do that I have created under Studio (a DVD making software) two consecutives menus with the first one with 99 chapters.
By doing this I can read my pictures as I want and I can go from the 99th picture of the first menu to the 1 picture of the second menu: fine. But I can't get back from the second menu to the first menu.
My question is to know if it is possible regarding DVD rules?

Thank you
Rmanal

[nic2k4]

Not supposed to, but that hasn't stopped Sony from making camcorders that do it. The only question is whether your authoring software will do it or not. To get back to the first menu of your picture DVD, just push the menu button on your remote. When you're making "consecutives menus" you are actually making separate tracks. You just need to get back to the track menu to see all your tracks. Of course you have to create a track menu first.

[noemi7]

Don't forget about the rule:
menu aspect ration 4:3 > max. 36 buttons per menu
16:9 > max. 18 with auto LB or PS; and max. 12 with auto LB and PS

[Alex_ander]

You'll have to split your menu into pages each with max 36 buttons (if 4:3) and use separate titles with 99 or less chapters.

[rmanal]

nic2k4,

I don't really anderstand why you mean. Could you explain more with an exemple.
Do you know which software is doing that?
How is made the DVD by Sony?

Thank you

[rmanal]

Nobody to help me?
Is it possible to change the DVD files (with PGC edit for example) in order to obtain what I want?

[guns1inger]

I haven't seen this disc produced by Sony, but under the strict DVD spec you cannot do it, no authoring tools will support you doing it, and most (all ?) players will not be able to handle playing it. Stick within the spec if you want to create a DVD. Sony have scant regard for standards.

[tinker]

Nobody to help me?
Is it possible to change the DVD files (with PGC edit for example) in order to obtain what I want?

Everybody is trying to help, but you do not want to understand. There are certain rules in DVD authoring which has to be adhered to for DVD to play in DVD player.
On is as Alex_ander state that 4:3 format can have max 36 buttons per menu.
Other is that all menus, together in one VTS, cannot be larger than 1GB.

[Alex_ander]

If you still want to see 99 buttons in a single menu page, there's a trick of switched menu cells. Make 3 pages of menu cells each with all 99 buttons shown as images, but only 33 of them actually highlightable and working. Imagine the buttons placed in 3 columns, then the 34th invisible auto-activated 'button' should have its active (highlightable) area over the column next to active one for this page. Once you move left/right from an actually highlighted button, you'll get that 34th button highlighted=activated and quickly move to the page with another active button column. And so on with the 3rd page. This way you keep inside the standard limit of buttons per button set and have all 99 buttons on display.

[tinker]

God trick. Something to remember.

[rmanal]

Tinker, Alex_ander,
There is a misanderstanding between us: my purpose is not to make a menu, in a DVD mean, with more than 99 buttons, but just to switch between the chapters of two menus of 99 chapters each, as they was only one big menu.
I explain for example what I have done under Studio:
Menu 1: contain one button to chapter 1 of the menu 2
Menu 2: contain 99 buttons in order to create the chapters
Menu 3: contain 99 buttons in order to create the chapters
Chapter 1 menu 1
...
Chapter 99 menu 1
Chapter 1 menu 2
...
Chapter 99 menu 2

By generating this DVD under Studio, I can switch forward between chapter and I can pass from the chapter 99 menu 1 to the chapter 1 menu 2. Even if I let play the DVD, the film is not interrupting.
The only problem is that when I switch backward from chapter 1 menu 2 to chapter 99 menu 1: It does not work.
I don't think that this structure is against DVD standard, is it?

[guns1inger]

Yes. You cannot have 99 buttons on a menu and stay within DVD spec. You may certainly have more chapters than can fit on a single menu, which is why you may need several chapter menus to cover an entire film. But you cannot do what you are describing. If Studio is allowing you to create a menu with 99 buttons it is creating an out of spec DVD which may not play in most players.

[Alex_ander]

The only problem is that when I switch backward from chapter 1 menu 2 to chapter 99 menu 1: It does not work.
I don't think that this structure is against DVD standard, is it?

If you have multiple pages (each <36), it's OK.
Do you mean problem with next/previous button navigation at playback?
'Next' link may work naturally in case the playback is authored for 'play all' (next title starts after executing post-comands of the first title's PGC). But making 'previous' work needs special editing (DVDRemake). In case current playback position is on first program of the title PGC, it is possible to use 'previous PGC' setting. Add an empty PGC to the same title and edit Next/Previous PGC attributes of the main (entry) PGC: set its 'Previous' attribute to the number of that empty PGC. Then you can add pre-commands to it for addressing title#(previous)/chapter 99 (probably this should be indirect addressing, via VTS menu or VMG menu - if the first title is in another VTS).

[highvolumeJP]

For a DVD to be compliant, the maximum number of chapters is 99..........Actually, 99 per title - So you could add extra tracks(titles) and put the rest there) after the 99th it would go to the next "titleset" on the DVD.

[rmanal]

Alex_ander,

seems to be what I need. Effectively my menu has multi pages and I don't care about because I only use it to create the chapters.
But I don't know a lot about PGC, command and other VTS menu and VMG menu. So could you tell me:
- Even with multi menu, Studio is only using the first title set for all sub menus (VTS_01_X). So what exactly should I do?
- Where I can find informations to learn about DVD creation (to anderstand what is PGC and so on)?
- Which free software should I use to do that (DVDremake? PGC edit? ...)?

Thank for all your answers?
Rmanal

[guns1inger]

You are making life difficult for yourself if you use a substandard authoring toll and then try to fix it later with DVD Remake or PGCEdit. Start by using a better authoring tool. GUIForDVDAuthor is free and will do all that you need.

A good authoring tool will allow you to place chapter stops without the need for menu creation at all. It will let you place sub-menus in whichever titleset suits your design. It won't place artificial restrictions on your because of it's own limitations.

[Alex_ander]

You can read about DVD structure here:
http://www.dvd-replica.com/
http://www.dvd-replica.com/DVD/pgccat.php

Also DVDRemake Pro help file is very informative, downloadable from here:
http://www.dimadsoft.com/dvdremakepro/info.php

PGCEdit is a free program (IMO not as easy to use).

[borax]

Some remarks:

next chapter or previous chapter with my remote controller

IMHO it is not possible within the DVD spec. You can use more 'chapters' (depends on the authoring software), but as already mentioned, this is out of the DVD standard.

I would like to create a menu composed of hundreds of pictures

Sounds like a slide show. DVDslideshowGUI can create such a structure (in combination with GfD). The 'trick' to be in line with the DVD spec is to use just menus for the pictures (not titles). For each titleset on a DVD there are 99 menus possible, spread over the max. of 99 titlesets this results in more than 9000...
As menus may have pre and post commands, the navigation between these menus can be made in such a way to reflect your desired behavior: Next picture or previous picture with remote controller for all several hundreds of pictures (IMO it is cumbersome... if you want to jump from picture 200 back to picture 20 you need 180 clicks with your remote).

[Alex_ander]

next chapter or previous chapter with my remote controller

IMHO it is not possible within the DVD spec. You can use more 'chapters' (depends on the authoring software), but as already mentioned, this is out of the DVD standard.

Why not? In case the chapters belong to different titles, each with no more than 99 chapters, it is possible to organize whole disc previous/next navigation using the legal 'previous PGC'/'next PGC' attributes in the same title, with pre-commands for setting navigation between titles. Of course chapter counter will still use numbers within 99 at this. Authoring applications may hide what they actually do with title structure, probably in case 'more chapters' is offered, new titles are created (at least, by the described behaviour of resulting disc).

In case of menu-type slide show AFAIK, it is not 100% legal to navigate with next/previous keys for PGCs* in menu domain (despite it may often work). In case a disc with such settings is opened in DVDRemake (I trust its author) the reminder of that restriction is shown. It is only legal to use button link keys + (hidden) buttons. However, the same content (99 PGCs) in VTS titles will always work (it is better to assign those PGCs to the same title to keep within the limited VMG's number of titles).

P.S. * or do you mean to organize pictures as cells/programs?

[rmanal]

OK so I have tried PGCedit and effectively it is not so simple. I have make some tests that works but I dont know how to do what you explain before. I don't find the "previous PGC" setting.
Could you help me?
Thanks

[Alex_ander]

After you open your DVD, first explore its structure: as we discussed above, there should be separate titles (VTST1, VTST2 etc.) each with no more than 99 chapters. If your authoring software made a correct structure, start editing.

1.Highlight 2nd title named like VTST2 and use PGC button -> new dummy PGC and it will be created just after existing PGC in the same title (TTN2) with name like VTST2,2 (dummy).

2.Right-click on the main PGC (VTST2,1 with video content) -> edit PGC and edit 'Previous PGC link' from 0 to 2 (that's what you've just asked about).
Then create a new dummy PGC in video manager and add a pre-command to it for going to a menu with a named category (like 'angle menu' or another not used yet) in the first VTS: Jump to VTSM 1, Angle menu (that menu PGC will be created in next step).

3.In VTSM 1 (menu in VTS with previous movie) create a new dummy menu PGC: highlight it -> PGC button -> new dummy PGC. Then from right click on the new PGC use 'Set Menu Type' -> angle.

4. Add a pre-command to 'angle' menu created in p.3:
Jump to TTN 1, Chapter 99
(the number of the last chapter in our target 'previous' title)

5.Add a pre-command to the dummy title PGC created in p.1:
Call the VMGM PGC #, where the # is for PGC created in p.2

A brief explanation of editing (how previous button link should work for getting to a chapter of a title in another VTS).
When playback position is on the first program in 'next' title (a title in VTS2), previous link will follow 'previous PGC' setting to a dummy PGC in the same title. By its pre-command we go to a PGC in VMG. That last PGC has a pre-command for getting to a special PGC in VTS menu (we called it 'angle' since it's the easiest way to address it directly). From a VTS menu it is already legal to directly jump to a chapter of the wanted title (p.4 above).

[tomlee59]

Mods -- please delete the above post and permanently ban that spammer.

Thanks.

[rmanal]

Very busy currently.
OK seems to work fine, thank you very much, and I have more questions:
- Why do you create two more PGC in VMG and in the VTS: is it to take into account the event where the two PGCs to link are not in the same title?
- Under PGCedit I have two PGCs under the same title. The next PGC field of the first PGC is set to two, which corresponds to the second PGC. What is strange is that PGCedit indicates that it is a wrong value for this field: why?

[Alex_ander]

- Why do you create two more PGC in VMG and in the VTS: is it to take into account the event where the two PGCs to link are not in the same title?

That is because you can't (legally) directly call the content of another VTS from inside the current VTS (I'm assuming the 2 parts of your content are in different VTS's - is it so?), only via VMG. In case those parts were different titles in the same VTS you would be able to just use internal PGCs assigned to the 2 titles.

- Under PGCedit I have two PGCs under the same title. The next PGC field of the first PGC is set to two, which corresponds to the second PGC. What is strange is that PGCedit indicates that it is a wrong value for this field: why?

If you mean the first PGC with main movie and the second one created for navigation, then the first PGC should have 'Previous' (not next) attribute '2' for linking to it from PGC1 with remote button. All other previous/next in both PGC's should be 0 (default).
If both PGCs belong to the same title, it is legal to set those attributes, if it belongs to another title in the VTS, they should be default 0. I don't have that error message in PGCEdit even with both next/previous set to 2 in PGC1.

[rmanal]

OK for the first point.
For the second point my DVD is as following, before doing any modification:
- VTS1
- PGC 1 (99 chapters). Next PGC = 2.
- PGC 2 (following of my film).
PGCedit shows me that the value next PGC = 2 is not legal?

[Alex_ander]

In case PGC2 is registered with its own title number (if it has chapters, they can't belong to the first title with already 99 chapters), any non-zero setting is illegal (the command from 'next' button should not work). You said it worked for remote 'next' link - some players will call next VMG title (even from another VTS) from the last program of previous title (for jumping to next title, it is also possible to force skipping to post-commands using an extra program and a cell command).
If you want to link those 2 parts from next/previous buttons, you can add 2 dummy PGCs, one registered with VTS title 1 (like PGC1), the other with title 2 (like PGC2), then set 'next' in PGC1 to the first dummy PGC and 'previous' in PGC2 to the second dummy PGC. The pre-commands in in the first one added should lead to VTS title 2, and in the second one added they should lead to VTS title 1 chapter 99. So in this case (both titles in same VTS) you don't need creating PGCs in VMG or VTS menus.

[rmanal]

OK it works well.
Thank you very much for your help.