TMPGEnc Vs CCE

[dizidave]

Well, I now have it so that CCE works (using DVD2SVCD).

Did a little test yesterday using the same clip etc.....

To be honest, I prefer the TMPGEnc output (using 2.5). I know this goes against the grain.The main reason really was that the CCE video ratio was slightly out (i use no margin in tmpgenc so i get a fuller screen on my non-wide TV).

But as far as quality goes I couldnt really tell the difference.

[Kdiddy]

all these posts..maybe you should change ya login to "Busydave"

The key word in your statement is "prefer", and honestly that what ALL this VCD/SVCD/DVD encoding boils down to...so you like TMPG, I prefer CCE, so much is life.

I am little confused on exactly what you mean the "video ratio" is off??

Also, my personal opinion is that the DVD2SVCD method is not the best use of CCE. After a LOT of testing, the DVD2AVI->Avisynth/mpeg2dec frameserving->CCE provides the best quality AND time encoding process of CCE. I think a lot of people use the DVD2SVCD method for its newbie friendliness. Avisynth seems a little "Linuxish" at first, but once you have it down, it is quite simple. Even though I know that DVD2SVCD includes all of what I mentioned above, I have had issues with it, there are other very useful CCE options that are left out, and the DVD2SVCD just doesnt produce the same quality with allt he settins the same as when I do it seperate...so instead of trying to figure where the "bug" is in it, I just do it seperately.

[dizidave]

Theres a simple answer to the number of posts.....Im at work )

I meant about the aspect ratio (ie eggheads)....this (i think) is because i am trying to get an output for a 4:3 TV without losing too much vertical (dont mind sacrificing the edges a bit)

I have some info on the avisynth scripting off one of the other threads and so im gonna try it again....maybe ill change my mind.

Common concensus is that CCE produces better video, id like to get it to produce the output i like so i can have a look see.

Ill post as to how i get on

[SatStorm]

What was your settings? . What is your source?
As I wrote a week or more ago, TMPGenc 2.5 has better quality (if you don't use filters/ gop's and you use CBR or 2 Pass VBR) but it has so many bugs that make it uselless... Expecially for Athlon xp users...

[dizidave]

My source for TMPGEnc is DVD2AVI.

I use Auto VBR(CQ 65) on High Quality motion Search.

The sourecis set to 16:9 625 lines PAL, Interlaced, Top field first

My output is "No Margin"

[Kdiddy]

Well Avisynth will easily let you resize you picture to whatever ratio you choose...and then add black borders to fill to proper resolution.

I also choose to add a footnote to my comments. I have never dealt with interlacing or PAL, so I can not speak on the quality output of those settings. All of my DVDs that rented/purchase are NTSC progressive. I make all my SVCDs with the intention of using a max of 2 80 min CDR/RWs (except for extremely long movies) with a min of 160 bps audio. I polled my family that came over for Xmas (~15), they all agreed that a 4-pass VBR CCE NTSC progressive mpeg2 video was better than a 2 pass VBR TMPG mpeg2 video. One even went as far as to say he couldnt tell the difference tween it and DVD video, but Uncle Earl also still thinks its 1954 :P

I've been meaning to write a guide for a friend based on my settings/method, so I guess I will get to it, if you want to take a look at it when Im done (maybe by Sat), just email me. I also, have a sample clip of the podrace scene from Star Wars I on my FTP site.

[dizidave]

At the minute using TMPGEnce auto-VBR I am putting 35 mins of vid on a 80min CDR.

The CD's arent full but im using either 3 or 4 CD's....what i try to avoid is cramming the first 2 or 3 CD's to the brim and leaving myself a 3rd or 4th CD with 5 mins of video on it.

Id like to get a movie on 2 CD's but i didnt think it was possible with SVCD? (for say a 1:30 to 2:00 hour movie)

[StudeBarc]

Yo dizidave (or busy??),
50mins of SVCD on to 80min CD-R is quite reasonable quality. Under bitrate in DVD2SVCD I set 300 min 2100 min average and 2250 max ave and 2520 max bitrates. Adjust mins for 2 80 min cd's to 50 mins per and it'll do a 1:40 hr movie on two 80 min CD's. Not sure about kdiddy's Uncle Earl :P but my crew can't tell if it's the original DVD or my SVCD when playing. DVD2SVCD is an excellent package!!
Cheers
Studebarc.

[Faceman101]

Somehow I fit "Cabinet of Dr. Caligari" on one disc SVCD. Set the Quailty to 5 and the Image Quality to 5 on 1 pass VBR and got the whole 1h10min movie on one disc with no pixelation. Used to love TMPGEnc, now since I found CCE, I can't go back. Ok I lied, I can go back but the speed of CCE is it's weight in gold.

[Kdiddy]

What happen to my posts??..LOL, o well..again Dave, I have that guide & sample ready for you, again I would suggest burning to CDRW & viewing the sample on your TV:

ftp://sampleample@66.8.139.121:1615

And lets make this clear for those others who tried to access it.
clicking on the link above in internet explorer WILL NOT WORK! You must copy & paste the link into an FTP client like CuteFTP. You must have passive mode (pasv) ENABLED on your FTP client as well to make this work.

[Truman]

Well done Kdiddy. I hope you dont mind, that I want to add something.
For crop preview I prefer TMPG, because it is more exactly. DVD2AVI let you crop to a multiple of 8 only.
Also DVD2AVI's source range is less exact than TMPG's source range.

LoadPlugin("F:\mpeg2dec.dll")
LoadPlugin("F:\SimpleResize.dll")
Mpeg2source("G:\Sample Part 1.d2v")
Crop(0,56,720,360)
SimpleResize(480,296)
AddBorders(0,92,0,92)
ResampleAudio(44100)

You see it, 360+2x56=472 instead of 480.
If you demux 2 seperate audio parts and convert them with BeSweet, make sure, you have used the same gain for both parts, otherwise one part may be louder than the other.
Personally I prefer Avisynth's resize filters over SimpleResize.
The resize part. I think here is a mistake. 16:9 generetic is 1:1.77.
If you resize to 480x271 (480/271=1.77), you forget, that the SVCD image will be stretched to full screen. This might be correct if the source is 1:2,35. I always suggest to use FitCD to calculate the resize ratios. It calculates the resizing in respect to the ITU-R BT.601-4 standard.
So a 16:9 generetic source should be resized to 480x360 (+ 2x60 borders) if you want 4:3 generetic, but probably you want watch it on TV, so you have to respect the ITU-R BT.601-4 standard >>>resize to 480x368 (+ 2x56 borders).

[Also I highly recommend to pay attention to the TV overscan area, that is at least 2 macroblocks, on most TV sets even more.
So how about resizing to 448x344.
You save 42 macroblocks, that you dont need to encode, you have more bits left for the visible picture.
CCE is a quite a buggy tool It does not respect the macroblock borders as it should do. For example it moves the picture down, if you select "upper field first".
Let's say, you úse the script above. Then you will end with top border 93 and buttom border 91. But this is only important if you pay attention to a macroblock optimized encode.]

CCE: I think luminance level 0-255 and Intra DC 10 is overkill, if you watch it on TV only. For MPEG-2 (progressiv) encodes non-linear quantise scale is correct.
Finally I believe you need to mux the matrices only when you use a different matrix than "MPEG standard" matrix.

[Kdiddy]

To be honest Truman, you lost me with a lot of what you said...LOL

"I think here is a mistake. 16:9 generetic is 1:1.77.
If you resize to 480x271 (480/271=1.77), you forget, that the SVCD image will be stretched to full screen."

With a dar of 4:3, and having my player set to 4:3 letterboxed. I dont get full screen look on my TV if this is what you mean. I get the same 4:3 letterboxed look I do as my DVD gives me. If I do 480x360 (1.33), then with same settings on my player, then I get the 16:9 "stretched, egghead look" on my TV. I prefer the 4;3 letterboxed as oppose to 16:9 on my 4:3 TV. I dont understand nor will pretend to understand the overscan and ITU issues, I'll trust you on that. Like I said, it is what works for me, and there is "no money back gaurantee" it is will work for the next person.

" I think luminance level 0-255 and Intra DC 10 is overkill, if you watch it on TV only. For MPEG-2 (progressiv) encodes non-linear quantise scale is correct. Finally I believe you need to mux the matrices only when you use a different matrix than "MPEG standard" matrix"

Crap I did leave that part out...I meant to include patching CCE with the different matrix, which would explain why I included muxing with them. Some editing needs to be done. On the rest it may be just my eyes, but I really cant tell a difference between DC8 as oppose to 10, luminance levels, or quantizer scale...so I just adopted the policy of setting those settings the same as they were on the original DVD.

[Truman]

Well, I think you talk about a 1:2.35 source, do you?. Then we mean the same. But it is not because 480/271=1.77. Since this question came up several times I wrote a little explanation.
http://www.vcdhelp.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=77087
You (and I) can not see the difference between Intra DC 8 as oppose to 10 or luminance level 16-235 vs. 0-255 when watching on a normal TV. Wasted bits...

[kinneera]

You (and I) can not see the difference between Intra DC 8 as oppose to 10 or luminance level 16-235 vs. 0-255 when watching on a normal TV. Wasted bits...

Indeed, I seem to recall reading somewhere (may have been CCE's help file even), that low intra-DC bit values are recommended for low bitrate streams as they may even yield higher quality.

Also, isn't the 16-235 luminence range what is used for YUV, which is the colorspace that the video will be ultimately mapped to on your TV? That is my understanding, in which case you would definitely want to set it to that range unless you plan on only watching your video on a computer. Avoids an unnecessary colorspace conversion, and the associated quality loss.

[Kdiddy]

Only stating this again because either people arent READING or do not know how to use passive mode.

clicking on the link above in internet explorer WILL NOT WORK! You must copy & paste the link into an FTP client like CuteFTP. You must have passive mode (pasv) ENABLED on your FTP client as well to make this work.

[Kdiddy]

"Indeed, I seem to recall reading somewhere (may have been CCE's help file even), that low intra-DC bit values are recommended for low bitrate streams as they may even yield higher quality.
Also, isn't the 16-235 luminence range what is used for YUV, which is the colorspace that the video will be ultimately mapped to on your TV?"

upon further review by the replay official, the call is over turn...it seems you both are correct. That YUV2 which is what CCE works with is best done with a DC of 8 and Luminance level of 16-235. Damn, more editing..LOL

I do know this, I see why soooooooo many people have trouble with encoding, capturing, etc on this site. It seems very few people either do not read the posts carefully OR do not know how to follow instructions. I've said it twice in this post, and still 90% of attempts on my FTP have been in port mode, so for the 3rd time, it will ONLY work in passive mode.