Sony S360 can play svcd. So will other older players

[shovelhed]

I saw another post that was in this board talking about similar things. Here is what I did to make it work:

Tools:

Nero Burning Rom 5.5.6.4
TMPgenc 2.50.32.120

How to:

Open Tmpgenc, go to FILE --> MPEG Tools --> Simple
Multiplex. Open your SVCD film in Video Input. Now
name your Ooutput MPEG something diffrent. Go to the
top of the tools window and select "MPEG-1 Video CD",
click run.
NOTE: If you try to open the re-multiplexed MPEG in
Media Player or even preview it in TMPgenc, you will
see garbage, I imagine this is because the header has
been now changed? I was leery afer seeing this but
went ahead and burned it anyway. I am happy I did.

Open Nero Burning Rom. Choose the Video-CD template.
NOT SVCD! Unclick the "Create standard compliant cd"
option. Select new, drag and drop your file in and
burn. That's it.

I hope this helps somebody out there. It certainly
works. From what I read it seems the XVCD capability
helps make this work. I wish I had another player to
test this on but unfortunately I don't.

ShovelhEd.

[KaBoNG]

w00 h00!

Thanks *so* much, shovelhed - you are too cool for words! 8)

I've been messing around with this re-multiplex thing ever since I read kinneera's post about hacking around Sony's non-SVCD compatability here: https://www.videohelp.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=71532&highlight=sony+svcd

I posted some disappointing results (due to audio sync problems) here: https://www.videohelp.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=74016&highlight=sony+svcd

BUT, your method works PERFECTLY in my Sony DVP-NS400D!!!!

The main difference is skipping the DE-mulitplex step and simply RE-multiplexing the SVCD MPEG-2 stream. I have learned a couple of more things...

First, this method also works with TMPGenc v2.02 and Nero v5.5.5.6.

Secondly, and this one is really going to make some people happy...you can also burn these X(s)VCD's (I think this kinda decribes it ) with VCDEasy1.0.7/Cdrdao v1.1.5 and include chapters!!!

Pinch me - I must be dreaming.

Cya later - I've got some burning to do.

p.s. Almost forgot, you might want to know that I authored the chaptered X(s)VCD using VCD 2.0 mode in VCDEasy. Just make sure to uncheck the "Perform some MPEG compliance checks" box on the main page.

p.p.s. Okay, so I forgot one other bit - when RE-multiplexing with TMPGenc, I consistently got a warning message that said "<n> s packets cause buffer underflow. The MPEG file might cause error when it played". I just ignored it - the file seems to play fine. 8)

[tnuro]

this is the method I've been using for a couple of months since I saw the original which I recall was before Kineera's, but don't hang me if my memory is wrong. Alas for my player (Sony725) it will play the film OK, but I cannot ff/rr without the video becoming completely corrupted.

Again, I stress this is just what I have found for MY player, you guys might be luckier and not have this flaw

[KaBoNG]

ff/rr and chaptering work fine on my Sony player (DVP-NS400D in case you missed it above) - at least with the SVCD's I have tried so far. They were encoded as follows:

NTSC SVCD (480x480, 29.97fps)
video - 2-pass variable bitrate, 2450kbit max., 2200kbit avg.
audio - 224 kbits 44khz

tnuro, are you sure that you followed shovelhed's method? It's slightly different than kinneera's - his method caused all sorts of problems for me. I think the main thing is *don't* DE-multiplex the original MPEG-2 - you just RE-multiplex it.

It would be good if others would add to this thread and share their findings on compatibility.

[tnuro]

KaBoNG - Yep, i do this exact method. I found this short-cut myself when I saw the original posting, I just never posted it here since I was obsessed with other issues to do with my frame holding problems I was having (see my other postings) - which I can now say I have solved so I'm happy.

I also have found that the quality between mepg1 & mpeg2 is virtually zero on my player & for the bitrates I am using (usually around 2000kbps), so apart from chaptering & some other nice features in svcd's, I'm haven't been too inspired to pursue it so far. That might change

[mariela06]

My VCD doesn't play in my SONY DVD.

I followed the instructions in the HOW TO section.
I am starting with an AVI Dvx File wich I convert into mpeg (VCD) using TMPEnc (nothing close to what is described here using the File->MPEG Tools). I then use NERO to write it to the CD on VCD format.

I did not use

The result is a CD with a bunch of folders (I was able to play the .DAT in Media Player), but it didn't play in the DVD Player.

Any ideas?

[tnuro]

mariela06 - your question is best posted as a new subject, as we're talking about fooling players that don't officially support SVCD to play by making them look like VCDs to the player.

Anyhow, I suggest that you check the cdr's that you are using - Sony's tend to like only silver dye cdr's, if you're using green/blue/gold etc then it most likely will not be recognised by a sony. I use Princo's silver cdr's and they work fine. I've tried other silver dye brands and they all work, even the really cheap ones. TDK also make nice high quality silver dye cdr. Before I burn anything to a cdr, I test it on a silver dye cdrw (again Princo) to make sure everything is fine.

[KaBoNG]

I also have found that the quality between mepg1 & mpeg2 is virtually zero on my player & for the bitrates I am using (usually around 2000kbps), so apart from chaptering & some other nice features in svcd's, I'm haven't been too inspired to pursue it so far. That might change

This is true if you are encoding from a high quality (i.e. DVD) source. However, I don't think a 2000+- kbps MPEG-1 or MPEG-2 will re-encode in the opposite format without a loss of quality (you are going through a second generation of lossy processing).

Why I wanted to find a solution to the SVCD problem was to handle existing SVCD-compliant MPEG's in my Sony DVD player without having to re-encode them as MPEG-1 XVCD's. If I'm ripping a DVD I will usually do it as an MPEG-1 XVCD as I agree that I see no real difference in the final product, SVCD or XVCD (actually XVCD might be nicer because I can use a full 720x480 frame size), if I use this source.

Chaptering *is* a very nice feature though and I'm happy that I can make it work on these SVCD's dressed up as VCD's that I'm making.

[KaBoNG]

<Sigh> - there seems to be a slight issue with audio sync when doing this SVCD as VCD thing. It is, at times, slightly off but at other times appears to be on. It is not far out of whack but still enough to be noticeable at times.

I am guessing that this is the result of the error message I get when RE-multiplexing with TMPGenc "<n> s packets cause buffer underflow. The MPEG file might cause error when it played".

Gonna keep playing with it a bit. Maybe I'll go back to burning with Nero as a non-compliant video CD to see if this makes a difference. If it works, it will unfortunately mean the loss of chaptering.

Stay tuned...

[ToxIk]

I hate to sound like a n00b here, but I got some questions...
Seeing as i'm more of a DiVX person, does someone have a page that links me to info on SVCD/MPEG2 (eg. what all this multiplexing stuff is)?
If the SVCD has AC3 audio encoding and I do this, will it still retain and play the audio in surround?
I was also wondering if someone has tested this on a Sony DAV-S300?

Thanks for any help

[jollyrogr]

I just made a vcd using the above method. Used TMPGEnc 2.02 and Nero 5.5.6.4
When played in my pioneer dvd player the picture is limited to half the screen. I dont really care since my player will play svcds, but I'm making this one for my dad who has a sony ns400. Just wondering if you guys think it will play ok in his sony. I would hate to go through the trouble of making the discs if they are going to look like crap when he gets them and tries to play em. I can pop it in my cdrom and play it with windvd and it looks great. Near as I can figure, the pioneer is thinking the 480x480 video is actually 720x480 for some reason.

[tnuro]

KaBoNG - yes, you need to use the non-standard option when multiplexing otherwise you will get the packet error thing. Afterall, you are creating an XVCD, not a VCD. This might sort out your probs.

...or should that be FXSVD & FXVCD (frankenstein XSVCD & frankenstein XVCD
)

[KaBoNG]

I like FXSVCD.

I tried the non-standard VCD remux thing and yes it didn't produce the error message but no it didn't fix the audio sync problem. I think I am zeroing in on the problem though.

This is a multi-disc set that was encoded as a single stream and then cut up into CD-sized portions. The first one seems to play fine. It's the others that have an audio delay on them that only manifests after I create the FXSVCD.

I remember when I was just trying to re-encode them as XVCD's that I had to do a project create with DVD2AVI. Each project produced an audio stream called <Filename> test MPA T01 DELAY -XXms.mpa where XX represented a numerical value. In the first CD the value was zero. In the other ones, there were values like -77ms and -82ms. I went to the authors website here to find out more about these file names:

http://arbor.ee.ntu.edu.tw/~jackei/dvd2avi/doc/issue.html#delay

In particular, I became interested in this:

"The beginning of selected region is aligned to I-frame by DVD2AVI and only I-frame owns a PTS. DVD2AVI will start to rip audio packet from the decided I-frame.

Assuming that we decide to rip from the second I-frame...

The audio delay of second I-frame is computed as PTS(A) 0.607 - PTS(V) 0.790 sec = -183 ms (audio is ahead)

The playback time of audio/video packet is different, so we should cut out 183 ms of audio in order to synchronize."

What doesn't make sense above is if the audio is ahead, you should be adding to the audio file to sync not cutting as cutting should move the audio ahead. I am confused but it did give me an idea on fixing the sync problem. So...

My audio is behind the video so it makes sense that I should cut some of the audio at the beginning to sync it. Tried the values reported in the file names and, while there was an improvement, it wasn't enough. There was still some additional delay which I presume is introduced by the FXSVCD remux.

It is not much - I figure no more than 80 ms but may be closer to 50 ms - I am messing with this idea tonight. This doesn't explain why the first CD doesn't seem to have a problem but maybe that has to do with it being the original starting point of the stream.

In my first attempt at doing FXSVCD's (see link above), I was demuxing the MPEG-2 and remuxing as MPEG-1 and had all sorts of sync problems that were not constant throughout the stream. This time, if I demux the MPEG-2, clip some of the audio out, remux as MPEG-2 and then remux as MPEG-1, the audio delay seems to remain constant which means it should be fixable.

More fiddling...report follows.

Kirk out!

[tnuro]

I can't recall if you are using tmpgenc or bbmpeg or something else. I pretty much use tmpgenc exclusively. Being reliant on a single encoder has caused me some grief - see my postings about my frame holding problem, and another problem solved further down in this message.
Anyway, whenever I've used tmpgenc I've never had a single problem with audio syncing, and I used to do excactly what you say here - encode as a single file and then split it up afterwards. This never gave me trouble. These days I create 2 halves so that my PC is not bound up for so long.


Anyway, onto my next success story. I reported that the Sony725 couldn't ff/fr svcd cd's - I've solved the problem (quickly this time!) Again, bbmpeg was to the rescue and inspired me to continue - it created mpeg2 files that my player COULD ff/fr, so I checked tmpgenc again with my new revelations about GOP sequences. There's a setting in tmpgenc called "output interval of sequence header". The default setting in 0, therefore it only puts out the header info at the start & never again. Changing this to '1' results in my Sony behaving for ff/fr of mpeg2 files. Yay!
I've tried longer gaps and all that happens is that when I ff/fr it just corrupts for a short time and then gets back in sequence again.

Now onto chaptering.......the only painful thing about mpeg2 files is that I don't have a program that can view the files frame by frame like VirtualDUB since it can only view mpeg1.......anyone got another program to recommend?

cheers!

[mat82284]

tnuro can you explane how to do it i have a 5gb mpeg2 file of Lord Of The Rings i downloaded and i cant get it to go in sync when i split it up the audio is wack and i can figure out how to do that GOP thing can you explain?

[tnuro]

I can't really help you with your audio sync probs, as I've never had a problem so therefore I've never really had to dig deeper.
A for GOP structures etc., see my new positing
https://www.videohelp.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=76453

[KaBoNG]

tnuro:

I have been using tmpgenc exclusively. Maybe I should give bbmpeg a whirl to see if that sorts my sync problem.

For chaptering, I haven't tried anything fancy like syncing them to scene changes. I just set them for every 3:30 so I can quickly skip through the disk or go to the approximate point I want to enter using the numpad.

[ToxIk]

Is there anyway to have it preserve the AC3 audio of an SVCD? when I multiplexed the MPEG2 it made the AC3 into stereo sound.

[KaBoNG]

Well I am some p*ssed *ff at this board. I made a big post describing what I had to do to fix my audio sync problems and it's disappeared.

Anyway, short version, had to remove about 500ms of audio from the beginning of each CD after the first on my multi-CD set to get audio to sync. Had to add the same amount of silence at the end or TMPGEnc complained at the end of the remux.

This fix works for me but it is bloody time consuming because I had to determine the 500ms by trial and error. Also, every once in a while, play back will "hiccup" and audio goes out of sync. If I reverse for a few frames and hit play again, all is normal - weird.

Gotta try another SVCD set to see if my probs were unique to the one I was working with or the same for all SVCD's.

[KaBoNG]

Nuts! Audio sync delays on a different SVCD set and a private message from another Sony DVP-NS400D owner who says these remuxed SVCD's play fine in another brand - delay only with his Sony. Now I'm really p*ssed *ff.

Too much trouble farting around trying to find the length of a needed audio delay fix which varies from SVCD to SVCD. Going back to XVCD's. At least I have a working 480x480 XVCD template that reduces alot of the quality problems I was having trying to stretch a SVCD up to 720x480 XVCD. Results are actually quite pleasing. Too bad I have to spend the time doing a reencode though.

[KaBoNG]

I am still pondering this Sony DVP-NS400D 500ms delay thing.

Something that I find very odd is that CD1 of the set plays back properly (i.e. no audio delay) after the MPEG1 remux. CD's 3 and 4 are delayed all to hell (about 500ms). CD2 is just kinda gimpy in it's audio sync but I see the same thing in the MPEG2 source. So...

What is different about CD1 that makes it work right?

I have tried another (2 CD) SVCD release but found that both CD's 1 & 2 exhibited the delay problem.

I've looked at some of the frame information using BBINFO and there are some definite differences in timing, etc. between CD1 and CD's 3 & 4. Maybe this is the key? I just don't know how to make them look exactly like CD1. Maybe time to play with PVAStrumento a bit.

Anyone else have any ideas?

[KaBoNG]

Okay, I think I have a solution.

CD's 3 & 4 audio is desynced. Doesn't matter by how much - accept that the sync is just fux0red.

I made a project file from the CD3 mpeg2 stream with DVD2AVI to frame serve TMPGEnc. I then re-encoded a short sample of CD3 using the default SVCD template. Checked the result with PVAStrumento using the info option and the bottom line read "No A/V delay. Go celebrate !".

I then remuxed the SVCD stream as a non-standard VCD stream in TMPGEnc, burned it with VCDEasy and voila, audio delay on Sony DVP-NS400D is gone.

DVD2AVI does show and audio desync of -76ms on the mpa file it produces. I didn't notice much difference between compensating for this in TMPGEnc and not compensating (setting>advanced>source range and set audio gap correct using opposite sign reported by DVD2AVI i.e. if -76 use 76).

The only drawback is that there appears to be a loss of video quality (2 generations of lossy encoding - shows in dark scenes mostly). I don't know if it's possible to compensate for this or not. May play with some XSVCD variations.

Anyway, try this for your self and let me know what your results are.

[tnuro]

damn, I think you jinxed me. My Sony725 exhibits this sync problem too, but less than 500ms, I think its out of sync by about 100ms, very subtle but annoying. I've only ever noticed this on our bodged SVCD's like you're saying.

I can't quite follow why what you have done here works, but I'm going to try something slightly different - a bit hairbrained so I'll keep it to myself until I try it out..........
why isn't anything ever simple ? We're spending so much time encoding crap that there's no time to watch any of it! hehe.

[KaBoNG]

I think what I have learned is that any audio desync results in problems for bodged SVCD playback on my Sony DVP-NS400D. Even if it's only out by 75ms, it will be a much larger gap (i.e. 500ms delay) when played back on this DVD player.

I am certain now that I can *make* SVCD's that will be compliant with my player. The trick will be that for multi-CD jobs, you need to separately encode each CD (using TMPGEnc's "Source Range" filter) rather than encoding the entire stream at once and cutting it after. The desynced parts that cause problems are always the cut CD's.

The trick now is to figure out a way of resyncing downloaded SVCD's without having to reencode them (which introduces additional video noise, particularly in dark scenes). In other multi-CD sets even the first CD, when played back on the Sony, is audio delayed by a small amount (as described by tnuro above) even though there is no audio delay reported by DVD2AVI or PVAStrumento.

One thing that is very importent is that when you mux to MPEG-1, make sure you are selecting MPEG-1 Video CD (not MPEG-1 Video CD (non-standard)).

p00, nothing is ever easy!

[tnuro]

I've decided to trash my test movie of 'memento', and move onto something else, as I think I've watched a segment of this movie so many times I may be imagining sync problems. The actors in memento actually hardly move their lips when they speak, so maybe I don't have a sync problem afterall. Time will tell, onto something fresh!

I actually mux to non-standard, otherwise all hell breaks loose since I use non-standard audio bitrates & non-standard video bitrates.

One idea I had for your problem was instead of re-encoding the video, just redo the audio by itself (system audio in tmpgenc) and see what happens....if it works its a lot lot quicker.

[KaBoNG]

I too have moved onto another set. I have found with this set that when I mux to MPEG-1, and select MPEG-1 Video CD (not MPEG-1 Video CD (non-standard)), then the audio delay is greatly reduced but still slightly delayed and in reality it is 91ms early.

This still respresents probably 150ms delay in total.

[tnuro]

I have found the problem, for my Sony725 at least -
I was using the 'auto' setting for VBV buffer size. Set this to the mpeg2 default of 112KB and it all works correctly for me. I can do completely identical compressions with the only change being between auto & 112 and the 112 works, the auto setting produces a 200ms delay (my estimation) in the audio. The other thing I've noticed is that ff/fr is now glitch free - I used to get occasional glitches with the auto setting.

I solved this by using the SVCD preset in tmpgenc and it worked, so it was just a matter of finding the difference between my settings the the standard SVCD.

This buffer size difference didn't have any effect for PC-based players, it was just a specific problem to my sony.

See if this works for you. Report back!

ciao

[KaBoNG]

tnuro,

Can you be a little more specific with your instructions? What tool were you using, how were you using it and exactly where is the VBV buffer setting. A step-by-step would be most appreciated.

[tnuro]

ok

tmpgenc is the tool

If you look on the settings/video tab you will see a VBV buffer size setting. Make it 112 instead of auto and recompress.
If you load the preset settings for SVCD, you will have found that this was preset to 112 and non-configurable, therefore this must be an explicit setting for the SVCD standard. The auto setting produces a file that works ok on PC players, but not on my player. The default SVCD setting of 112 creates a SVCD file that works correctly both on PC players and on my Sony.

good luck. Try a small trailer 1st!

[KaBoNG]

Okay - so this is the method you use when encoding an SVCD to be played on the Sony. What about the remux trick on existing SVCD's?