HD camcorder - which/where to buy?

[Nilfennasion]

I have been perusing reviews of all the high-def camcorders available in Australia at present and they all seem to say much the same things. AVCHD is a no-no, HDV owns, et cetera. Since I want to shoot footage that amounts to people talking in front of the camera, I am really anxious to find an idea model for those purposes. Problem is, the complaints about the noise and motion artefacting also make me leery of what the footage will look like on my plasma set. I am planning to go into a specialist store and having a look for a suitable camcorder there. What should I be looking for?

[racer-x]

Here's what I did before I bought my Canon HV20:

Donload video samples from all cameras interested in, both AVCHD and HDV formats. Check quality and editability. Make sure you can work with the source files.

Although AVCHD may very well be the future, we are not yet ready for it hardware wise. Sure it can be edited, but it's very difficult right now. Maybe when we have Quad-Cores or Eight-Core CPU's that will change. HDV is very easy to edit, reletive to AVCHD. You still need a very fast PC, but it's no big deal compared to AVCHD.

[agilpwc]

If you are just recording talking heads, then you won't have to worry about noise and motion artifacting.

Motion artifacting comes into play when you are panning your camera.

[Nilfennasion]

Cheers, racer-x, that clears up quite a lot for me.

[zoobie]

The amount of variety and formats has just boggled the consumer's mind. I couldn't wait for the Canon HV20 and sprung for the Sony HC5 and couldn't be happier. I only shoot outdoors so low level light wasn't an issue...but a LANC was.

[Nilfennasion]

Perhaps it might help to explain a bit about why I am shooting.

The main focus of what I am shooting is indeed talking heads, but other things such as talking heads moving through outdoor or less than optimally-lit locations would be a very nice option to have. The thing is, the talking heads are speaking on a subject that has to do with the rights of a social minority, one of which I would not be surprised to learn I am not the only member on these boards. But the main purpose is to educate the viewer in facts with which to replace some very ignorant and prejudicial misconceptions that have already proven fatal to children who are counted among us.

Long story short, I am shooting a series of documentaries that have a sort of Alby Mangels meets Angelina Jolie's Hobby flavour. This means what I shoot could be anywhere in spite of the fact that most of my plans revolve around people speaking to the lens. We have one member who calls herself SoccerFreak and draws cartoons that star hockey players, so shooting the kind of things that might comprise a thirty-minute special in which she speaks her piece could involve some very rapid motion both in front of and on the part of the camera.

So far I am inclined to go with a HDV-based camera, but I am also inclined to just give up and go SD because of how immature the capture mechanism of the high-def cameras seems. Or should I wait for this Christmas?

[edDV]

Sounds like normal documentary style.

You didn't mention a reason for HD, or a budget. Some documentary film school training can help. Lighting is key for a pro look. Learn to light. Also, audio is important if you want this to be considered professional. Good audio is more important than HD.

For SD the Sony PD-170 DVCAM rules for this kind of shoot on a budget. The Sony FX-1 or Z1U are the HDV equivalents but not as good in low ambient light. Audio and lighting will be important. The Z1U has the XLR pro mic jacks. On the Canon side look at the XH-A1 but the XH G1 is better equipped for audio.
http://dvinfo.net/canonxh/index.php

Another to look at is the Panasonic HVX-200 if you want to move up to true broadcast DVCPro-HD
http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/hvx200microsite/index.asp
http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/HVX200/

At lower prices, you can adapt consumer models for pro audio including VX-2100, FX-1, FX-7 and maybe soon the XH-A1.
http://www.beachtek.com/prod.html

[Nilfennasion]

The reason for HD is deceptively simple: future-proofing. The people who are interested in this work, and I tend to agree with them, want to be able to convert the videos produced into as many formats as is possible for dissemination. 1080p presently gives the most room to move in that area, 1080i is an acceptable compromise from that, but SD does not leave a lot of room with the way the market is headed.

Another reason to shoot in HD is that when you mount a plasma TV and a Blu-Ray player in front of a support group, classroom full of medical students, or a crowd of overworked social workers, it tends to make a far more lasting impression than the DVD-Video that everyone and their camel has at least two of in their homes now. Involuntary muscular movements in the face are also considerably easier to notice when shot in HD, as I discovered recently when I was at a store testing a couple of AVCHD models. Props such as subject-created drawings, painted models, and other such creativities are also easier to shoot in higher resolutions. Which is partly the point of shooting this material in the first place: to show the audience that curing us of what we are (or what makes us different from our abusers as I like to put it in my Youtube videos) might carry a price too great for them to bear.

Maybe thinking of what I am shooting as being like those Osama Bin Laden videos, except for a good cause that involves showing people why we are not hiding underneath a mountain in shame, might be a better illustrative example. I don't know.

[edDV]

1080i conversions can be done. 24p offers most flexibility for 59.94 and 50 conversion.

For HD 24p you are into the Canon XH-A1 or XH-G1, Panasonic HVX-200, JVC-GY-HD110U

Consider working in 1280x720p for these camcorders. They will look good upscaled to 1920x1080p. True 1080p shooting puts you well over $100k. Most HD that is broadcast was shot 720p or 1440x1080i.

If you have that kind of budget, check out the bleeding edge Red.
http://www.red.com/

It is far from a starter camera.

[Nilfennasion]

Yeah, I think that is beyond my budget. For what I am doing in this stage of the game, 1080i is enough. If I demonstrate my best work with that and it gets me a break that allows me to go to 1080p or the like... well, you get the idea. I think I am probably going to have to limit myself to a ceiling of $2000 to $2500 or thereabouts, so I am really looking for the best bang for the buck.

The two models I was contemplating before I learned of all the AVCHD stuff are the Sony HDR-SR1 and the JVC GZ-HD7. The problem I am having is that the available options these cameras include and the word on the grapevine is just leaving me with more questions rather than more answers. But it seems nothing I look at is going to give me the results I would need for clean conversion or duplication.

[MJA]

edDV got a very expansive taste


go to the store get the Canon HV20 try it for a week ,and if you don't like it .return it

[edDV]

Yeah, I think that is beyond my budget. For what I am doing in this stage of the game, 1080i is enough. If I demonstrate my best work with that and it gets me a break that allows me to go to 1080p or the like... well, you get the idea. I think I am probably going to have to limit myself to a ceiling of $2000 to $2500 or thereabouts, so I am really looking for the best bang for the buck.

The two models I was contemplating before I learned of all the AVCHD stuff are the Sony HDR-SR1 and the JVC GZ-HD7. The problem I am having is that the available options these cameras include and the word on the grapevine is just leaving me with more questions rather than more answers. But it seems nothing I look at is going to give me the results I would need for clean conversion or duplication.

I think then you should look for a used Sony FX1 + good tripod + Mics + lighting kit.
HDV has economical edit solutions such as Premiere Elements, Vegas Movie Studio HDV and ULead Video Studio Premium.

If that is too expensive, consider a used PD-150/VX2100 (SD) or maybe a consumer Canon HV20 to experiment in 24p. The PD-150/VX2100 (SD) puts you solidly in the "pro" ranks in work flow and hardware. It would be the solution for the journalist. The HV20 is for the techie to play at indie movies.

Forget AVCHD, you will curse it every day in the edit room. Kicking it up to uncompressed is too expensive. There are no good solutions.

The JVC HD7 is too early and requires a full up edit suite (Premiere Pro, Vegas, Final Cut, Avid). It isn't for the amateur. Workflow is complicated. You would be spending your time on tech issues not journalism.

Remember that 80% of your work issues are going to be sound and lighting. Editing should be fluid not complicated.

[edDV]

edDV got a very expansive taste

A craftsman needs proper tools.

[MJA]

edDV got a very expansive taste

A craftsman needs proper tools.

lol . we are talking about a 2ed mortgage here

[edDV]

Consider that a project of this size is going to absorb countless hours and frustration. There is no substitute for doing right with the right tools. If you want control, sell your car and get a beater if this is important to you. Better yet find a financial backer and do it right. But if you are working on somebody else's money, they have ultimate control.

[edDV]

For those in the USA, the Sundance Channel is doing back to back episodes of the excellent "Iconoclasts" series this weekend all shot with Sony HVR-Z1U HDV camcorders. These are examples of world class documentary editing. Note the attention to audio.

[tchambers]

I have downloaded clips in avchd and have had no problemo editing in Vegas 7.0e with a 2 year old pent 4 dual core 3.5 and 2 gigs of ram. The quality is outstanding. How do you guys feel about the hybrids, say the jvc or the sony sr8?