DVD Shrink, EDTV Vs HDTV

[dvdguy123456]

I am looking to buy a flat panel TV - done as much research as I could on EDTV Vs HDTV . How would a DVD shrink DVD+/-R look on either set? What about widescreen issues (if any)? I have a Philip DVP 642 player and not looking to go HD/Blu-ray any time soon.

Currently TV is a Mitsubishi 45" CRT Projection.[/color]

[yoda313]

fyi just use black text in the future. Colored fonts turn off a lot of readers

If your going to buy a new nonstandard def tv your better off getting a full hdtv than edtv. If memory serves a edtv is only 480p. That is only dvd resolution in progressive mode.

HDTV programming comes in 720p or 1080i resolution at the moment - I don't know if 1080p will ever come over-the-air or on cable/satellite. 1080p may just be bluray/hddvd for the foreseable future.

I would suggest looking into a 720p hdtv at the very least. Also recommend looking at "hd built in". Those will be the ones with a digital tuner in the set instead of neading an external tuner.

One other note - make sure it has an hdmi connection jack for next gen equipment. Even if you aren't planning to go that route it would be a good idea to do that. Also it would come in handy if you are a gamer and have either a xbox360 or if you're planning on getting a playstation3.

[dvdguy123456]

Changed font to black, sorry, first post in a while...

Thanks for the feedback on the TV, I was more concerned about the quality of a DVD shrink processed disc on an HDTV? Is the quality still going to be 480p? Same as progressive scan DVD? Will it look better on EDTV or HDTV?

Only reason I was thinking about EDTV was that I have Direct TV with DVR and had no immediate plans to go HD> The HD-DVR's cost about $250 and I don't want to loose DVR.

I also have ALOT of Laser Discs that I still use.

[yoda313]

Shrink won't change the actual resolution output it changes the bitrate. it will still be 480p. It's just the more you shrink it the less good it will look - it will most likely be magnified on a hdtv the amount of quality loss compared to a standard def tv. You might think about doing dual layer if you want to preserve quality on backups.

[dvdguy123456]

I haven't done alot of research on this - but can you use DVD Shrink with double layer discs?

[FulciLives]

I haven't done alot of research on this - but can you use DVD Shrink with double layer discs?

You really only use DVDShrink when you have an original Dual Layer DVD disc and want to put it onto a single layer DVD disc.

I haven't done any Dual Layer DVD disc burning myself but basically you just rip it then burn it with ImgBurn.

As for a ripper you can use DVD Decrypter with RipIt4Me or DVDFab Decrypter or AnyDVD etc.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[edDV]

What size screen are you considering?

Most screens (plasma and LCD) are now ~1366x768p up to 42". The EDTV 720x480p only remains an issue for larger screen plasmas. Those larger lower resolution monitors assume you will be viewing from greater distance, say >8ft.

As you move closer to a large screen monitor 3 types of issues dominate. First is motion artifacts due to deinterlace. Second is motion artifacts and blockiness due to high compression and third is size of the pixels or screen resolution.

If you continue with standard definition Direct TV (~524x480) You will see a great deal of deinterlace and compression artifacts plus noise on a moderate size progressive display. EDTV vs HDTV display resolution won't be a consideration since either exceeds the source. 1366x768 (~720p) makes sense if you do option up to the HD service.

For progressive DVD, an EDTV will share the same native resolution at 480p. A 1366x768 HDTV will upscale 480p to 1366x768 and may add some enhancement in the process but the differences will be minor.

As the screen size increases or as you get closer to the screen deinterlacing errors and compression artifacts will be more important than resolution for SD sources. A highly compressed single layer DVD will show more artifacts than a commercial higher bitrate release but still won't be nearly as compressed as SD Direct TV.

Avoid going too large on screen size with SD unless viewing distance is proportionate.

[jman98]

Please don't buy an EDTV. You will one day deeply deeply regret not having a real HDTV. In fact, I wouldn't advise anyone to buy anything that can't do 1080p. One day in the not too distant future, I have a feeling that those who can't do 1080p will feel like they wasted their money.

I just 2 weeks ago got the Samsung LNS4096D (don't pay attention to my location setting - I live in the good ol' USA) and I am amazed at the TV. I also have the Philips DVP-642 and I set up to progressive output through composite cables and it looks fantastic. I am even getting excellent results from VCD. I'm talking VCD here, not DVD. The VCDs don't look like DVDs, but they look a lot better than I would have thought they should. If you get a good TV, EVERYTHING looks good on it.

I haven't tested any DVDShrink authored discs because I stopped using that a while back for other options, but based on what I am seeing from crummy old VCD, I don't think you'll be unhappy with the results on a good TV. Yes, you can use DVDShrink with dual layer discs, but you are a fool if you use anything except ImgBurn to burn a dual layer disc and you do so being warned not to. ImgBurn is the only way to go for dual layer discs as anything else may not set the layer break correctly. By the way, please take a look at:
http://www.digital-digest.com/~blutach/pgcedit_guide/burning_with_pgcedit/burning_with...pgcedit_v2.htm
and go to the bottom to read about how Nero and DVDShrink don't use 32K gaps and may create DVDs that one day won't be playable if you have some bad sectors on the disc.

[oldandinthe way]

Look into the current deals at Circuit City - $300 rebate on Direct TV HD Upgrade if you buy A TV from them. Always limits and selections but it might be a way to avoid compromises.

[edDV]

...One day in the not too distant future, I have a feeling that those who can't do 1080p will feel like they wasted their money.

That depends on screen size and viewing distance. At normal viewing distances for say a 34" LCD, you won't see much difference between 1366x768 and 1920x1080 in a TV application. 1080p becomes more important for larger screen sizes, if you sit closer, or if you want computer display.

As for games, we are just beginning to move from 480p to 720p. Don't expect 1080p rendered games very soon. Next gen Xbox, PS4 are probably 4-7 years out.

[gshelley61]

edDV is right on the money. There are several key factors to think about when choosing a new TV or display. Viewing distance, screen size, native resolution of the display, the quality of the video processing, etc.

If you are going to get a new TV of any type, definitely consider getting one with a built in digital (ATSC) tuner. In fact, all new TV's being manufactured are now required to have the ATSC tuner if they are 27" or larger (even standard definition 4:3 tube TV's).

That being said, I think I would focus on widescreen format HDTV's with at least 1280x720p native screen resolution (1024x768 is probably OK for the smaller plasma sets unless you are sitting less than 6-8 ft away).

If you go with anything much larger than 50" in 16:9 diagonal screen size and you will be viewing from less than 10-12 ft away, I would strongly suggest getting a display with 1920x1080p native resolution.

Oh, as far as DVD's that have been re-compressed with DVD Shrink... they look OK unless they were heavily compressed (more than 20%). You might see some mild compression artifacts like mosquito noise or macroblocking, but nothing that is unwatchable.

[dvdguy123456]

Thanks to all for the advice. The one thing I did learn is that DVD Shrink is old technology - I will look at other options. As far as the TV. I am still not sure how I want to go. I know new HDTV's is the latest and greatest @1080P, but one thing I have to consider is that my kids use the TV to watch Spongebob, etc. I don't see the type of programming we watch going HD anytime soon. Not only that, but now that I have a DVR and I can't live without it! Upgrading DTV to HD is one thing - free upgrade, but then I have to upgrade the DVR and that's $250 - plus it's on b/o. This is all sounding very expensive. I don't mind spending the money on the TV, but it's all that follows (including blu-ray DVD etc).

The EDTV I can get is the Sylvainia 6842 42" Plasma - I can buy the TV for $649 shipped - no tax - with free wall mount after rebate. TV is actually $799, but I have the 25% Amazon.com Amex Wish Certificate. This is half of what I will spend on a good HDTV (unless they suddenly drop to $899 or so on-line, which may or may not happen any time soon). I guess I am still hoping for that last minute TV deal before xmas....

Again, thanks for the info!!

[edDV]

At that price you have a good deal for that older product but it should be good for SD Direct TV and DVD when viewed from a bit of distance. Try to use a good progressive DVD player connected 480p component for playing normal movie DVDs.

You should view one first and see if you are happy with normal cable or sat 480i to the progressive diaplay. At that size, compression and deinterlacing artifacts will be present and magnified.

[dvdguy123456]

The room I have my TV set in is 24' X 17' - all seating will be at least 8-9ft away. After all my research, it sounds like at this distance, the human eye can't tell the difference between HD and ED resolution. DVD player is a Phillips 642 progressive, which has a great picture on my old CRT projection set. Only big issue I have is that none of the DTV SD DVR's have component out - only composite. What about changing over to TIVO instead? Will that give me more options as far as output?

[edDV]

The room I have my TV set in is 24' X 17' - all seating will be at least 8-9ft away. After all my research, it sounds like at this distance, the human eye can't tell the difference between HD and ED resolution. DVD player is a Phillips 642 progressive, which has a great picture on my old CRT projection set. Only big issue I have is that none of the DTV SD DVR's have component out - only composite. What about changing over to TIVO instead? Will that give me more options as far as output?

Not even S-Video out? Keeping Y and C separate helps and I don't see a fancy comb filter in the specs to handle composite. Probably it will be fine if you are trying to keep expenses down.

Use composite over RF.
Use S-Video over composite.
Use component over S-Video where present.

[jman98]

dvdguy123456 - PLEASE do not buy an EDTV. Even though I pushed for 1080p TVs in my earlier post, even 720p is better than EDTV. You do understand that EDTV does NOT support ANY of the HDTV resolutions from 720p and above, don't you? Why would you pay for a TV that can't even do HD? Yes, I know that the HD TV spec allows for 480i and 480p, but those aren't really high def signals.

My Philips DVP-642 is giving me (to my surprise) excellent results on my 40 inch Samsung TV. I'm just using composite output and it looks great when set to progressive output.

Sorry, but I have no idea what the answer to your DVR/Tivo question is. I record directly to my PC (even for HD) and I have no use at all for standalone DVRs.

[edDV]

dvdguy123456 - PLEASE do not buy an EDTV. Even though I pushed for 1080p TVs in my earlier post, even 720p is better than EDTV. You do understand that EDTV does NOT support ANY of the HDTV resolutions from 720p and above, don't you? Why would you pay for a TV that can't even do HD? Yes, I know that the HD TV spec allows for 480i and 480p, but those aren't really high def signals.

He said he wants to stay with SD Direct TV (a contract satellite service) and no other HD source and expects to stay that way for a period of time. He also can get a 42" ED plasma for $650. He also will be watching from 8ft and further. In his case I can't see any reason to pay more for HD ("for the future"). In a couple of years he can buy a second HD capable flat panel for about the difference in prices today (e.g. $1300 - 650 = $650). That doesn't include the interest on the $650.

True if he decides next month to go HD, his losses will be great.

My Philips DVP-642 is giving me (to my surprise) excellent results on my 40 inch Samsung TV. I'm just using composite output and it looks great when set to progressive output.

Sorry, but I have no idea what the answer to your DVR/Tivo question is. I record directly to my PC (even for HD) and I have no use at all for standalone DVRs.

If your TV is any good, you will get a much better picture with the analog component YPbPr cable. Try both 576p and 576i modes.

Composite PAL is the worst way to connect and guarantees sub 576i performance. S-Video is a step up but still uses PAL encoding. Component cables sell in the $10 range and are worth the investment.

[gshelley61]

The thing about those EDTV plasma sets is the screen door effect is so bad... I think even at 8 ft you would still notice it. I just saw one today and it looked terrible compared the 1024x768 models (which are under $1000 some places). If you're trying to save money, why not get a CRT based rear projection HDTV? Does it have to be a flat panel? I mean, that's a large room. I'd want at least a 56" screen in there. A properly tweaked CRT based big screen HDTV would look way better than a 42" EDTV plasma.

[yoda313]

Does it have to be a flat panel

I thought all crt hdtv's WERE flat panels???

I think you might mean "thin depth"??? They do make thin tube tvs now so they aren't the mammoth ones of old like two and a half feet deep - some are only a foot and a half or less for thin tubes I believe.

[FulciLives]

Last Christmas I bought a Hitachi 51" 16x9 HDTV that is a CRT Rear Projection unit and the depth is only like 22 inches ... not bad at all. Plus you don't need to hang it or buy a stand for it since it sorta has it's own built-in stand if you will

It looks sweet

My model is discontinued now but the new current model is very nearly identical and from reports that I have read looks pretty much as good as mine. It only does up to 1080i but the price is right ... the 51" 16x9 model is selling for as low as $900 and if I am not mistaken someone this week is selling it for $800 or so.

I just looked at Circuit City and here it is ---> CLICK HERE

It is on sale this week for $899.99 which is an amazing deal as the model last year that I bought (which is essentially the same) cost me about $1350 and that was last year's Christmas deal price.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[manono]

My Philips DVP-642 is giving me (to my surprise) excellent results on my 40 inch Samsung TV. I'm just using composite output and it looks great when set to progressive output.

That's a joke, right, or a typo? You don't even get 480p out of a player using composite cables. And the DVP-642 is a piece of junk:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=...PhilipsDVP-642

If you want your TV to look its best, use component cables or a digital connection, along with a decent player.

[FulciLives]

My Philips DVP-642 is giving me (to my surprise) excellent results on my 40 inch Samsung TV. I'm just using composite output and it looks great when set to progressive output.

That's a joke, right, or a typo? You don't even get 480p out of a player using composite cables. And the DVP-642 is a piece of junk:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=...PhilipsDVP-642

If you want your TV to look it's best, use component cables or a digital connection, along with a decent player.

I wanted to say the same thing truth be told LOL

I mean I had a Philips DVP-642 for all of a month or two before it decided to die on me (after very little use). I bought it primarily as a MPEG-4 player and I must admit it was nice to have that capability BUT the quality of the MPEG-4 files were blah and DVD playback was blah and PAL to NTSC was god awful etc.

I admit I got a Philips DVP-5140 to use as a MPEG-4 player but despite being Philips it is a totally different beast. The picture quality of MPEG-4 and DVD discs are pretty damn good and even the PAL to NTSC is serviceable if not great (but no longer god awful).

The only reason the DVP-642 got popular was due to the fact that it was the only cheap and easy-to-buy DVD player that did MPEG-4 to some extent ... and could easily be hacked to be region free. None of that unfortunately means it was a quality product as it was not.

I can't believe some stores are still selling it even though the DVP-5140 and DVP-5960 have been out for months now.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[zzyzzx]

Woudln't EDTV be perfectly fine for those of us who are planning on getting a smaller TV, like 20" or so?

[jman98]

An old post dug up for not much good reason...
Anyway, I don't think EDTV would be "perfectly fine". It's not HDTV. OK, if you just decide that you don't want an HDTV no matter what and no you will not change your mind for the next 10 years, then yes, perhaps EDTV is OK for you. If you think you MIGHT want HDTV someday, you're wasting your money.

And to correct my earlier post, yes, I did make a typo and I meant I was using component video, not composite.

[gshelley61]

Woudln't EDTV be perfectly fine for those of us who are planning on getting a smaller TV, like 20" or so?

Yes. Small screens like that, SDTV or EDTV should be fine (unless you are planning on sitting very close to the TV... like less than 4 ft). The benefits of high definition displays are only evident in the larger screen sizes at normal room sized viewing distances.

[zzyzzx]

Actually I am still trying to figure out exactly wha EDTV is. I've done a lot of reading and come to the conclusion that it's really Widescreesn SDTV in progressive scan, or something like that.

[gshelley61]

Actually I am still trying to figure out exactly wha EDTV is. I've done a lot of reading and come to the conclusion that it's really Widescreesn SDTV in progressive scan, or something like that.

There are 18 ATSC digital broadcast formats, broken down into these basic groups...

SDTV (Standard Definition) is 640x480i or 704x480i in either 4:3 or 16:9

EDTV (Extended Definition) is 640x480p or 704x480p in either 4:3 or 16:9

HDTV (High Definition) is 1280x720p, 1920x1080i or 1920x1080p in 16:9

There are different framerates (24, 30, or 60 fps) available within each resolution grouping