VBR playback probs. on Pioneer DV-444

[sue denim]

Hi guys!
Just bought myself a DV-444 and I'm doing a few tests just to see how far I can push it!

VCD and SVCD playback is superb when using a Constant Bit Rate (CBR) to encode - even at high bitrates.
But give it a VBR encoded disk and it all goes pear-shaped!
I've tried quite a few different max./average bitrates but I always get the same result -> weird audio!

VCD (VBR) - Video ... OK
Audio ... delay of approx. 500ms (audio behind video)
Don't know if the audio delay is constant across a long track as I've only done short 'test' burns (eg.movie trailer,first chapter etc). Will test this soon.

SVCD (VBR) - Video ... OK
Audio ... really REALLY choppy!
In fact there's more silence than audio!!

Anybody come across these probs or have any ideas?
I'd really like to be able to burn VBR disks!

Cheers,
Sue xxx.

[Baldrick]

I just made a svcd with vbr video bitrate(2000 average 2400 max) using tmpgenc and it worked without any problem on my dv-444. How do you make yours?

[adamv]

With all the problems that people have with the Pioneer-444 maybe it would make sense for people who have success to post their templates. Pesonally it took me several days and around 25 cd-r's to get a svcd with working audio. I'm still not crazy about the quality. It looks like a medium quality vhs. I could give you the details of what I did but I think we would all be better served by someone posting a template that they got excellent results with. FYI I am capturing from DV using MGI, encoding with TPMG and burning with Nero.

Adam

[sue denim]

Hi Baldrick!
Thanks for the reply .......

I usually go : SmartRipper -> DVD2AVI -> TMPGenc -> Nero 5.0
Not too different from you then.

Will try your settings tonight and let you know the result ASAP.

Cheers,
Sue xxx.

PS - would appreciate a few more TMPGenc settings though .... CQ? AUTO? 224kb/sec Stereo etc etc. Thanks...

[sue denim]

OK - I'm back ...... and .......

IT DIDN'T WORK! Arrrrgghhhh!!!

TMPGenc 2.02 as encoder - 2pass VBR max 2400 ave 2000? Nope!
Same result, hardly any audio apart from the occasional blip.

Somebody else suggested trying a different encoder like LSX.

Anybody else got any more suggestions?

Thanks,
Sue xxx.

[Baldrick]

which bitrate do you use for the audio? and do you use tmpgencs audio encoder?

[Baldrick]

i used the default svcd pal template and changed just to 2pass vbr

[toddys2k]

I use Pinnacle Studio 7 to edit my DV movies, TmpGEnc 2.5 and Ulead DVD Movie Factor. I spent more time to find best quality of my SVCD and now I think to make a good template for TmpGEnc. I make some SVCD and on my 444 play correct and with a good quality
You find my template to:

http://www.maingate.it/files/svcd.mcf

Plase report me if this template works good for you...

[dattrax]

Heres my settings that I found work in my 444

2100 Avg
1900 Min
2400 Max

Audio 192

I think its the potential for swings in bitrate which throw it. If you keep the band min-max-avg fairly tight you are OK

[sue denim]

Hey, you may be right about that bandwidth 'swing' thing!
Sounds plausable. Will check it out tonight.

I also found out that my copy of TMPGenc (v2.02) doesn't set the VBV correctly.
VCD are fine but a value of 112 for SVCD encoding gives me a file, according to bitrate viewer anyhow, with a buffer size of 58!!
I had to double the VBV to around 224 before I got an MPEG file with a buffer of 112.
Unfortunately, this didn't fix the 'non-playback' in my 444!
It's a start though!!

Thanks a lot for the settings dattrax - what version of TMPGenc do you use?

Cheers,
Sue xxx.

[Truman]

Maybe you could solve the sound problem by downsampling the audio to 44100 Hz.
To get rid of the audio delay, multiplex with bbMPEG, there is an option to define the audio delay.
Bitrate viewer shows the number of buffer segments, not the buffer size. In TMPGEnc. you set the buffer size.
112 segments x 16 Kbit x 1024 =1835008 bits
1835008 bits / 1024 / 8 = 224 Kbyts

[sue denim]

Hi all!
Thanks for the VBV explaination Truman.

Dattrax - still no joy I'm afraid. Used your settings in TMPGenc and got the same result ... ie.good video,no audio (audio 'blips' in/out every few seconds).

I've managed to DL a PAL SVCD clip from this site and burn it ... guess what .... IT WORKS AND LOOKS FANTASTIC!!
So I MUST be doing something wrong.

Tried running the clip through BitRateViewer and matching the settings in TMPGenc .... still no luck.
Got hold of LSX 3.5 and tried that ..... DV-444 just outputs black screen on anything encoded with that prog.!!

I'm really starting to get frustrated now .... ARRRGGHH!!!
The only thing that keeps me doing 'just one more encode' is the fact that I KNOW my player plays SVCD and they look great!

Hope you guys have some more ideas ..... I'll try anything!

Sue xxx.

[dattrax]

Just for the record I had problems to begin with making SVCDS for the 444. I can now make NTSC and PAL discs which work. My first attempts used 0 as the minimum bitrate, but the picture would suffer from corruption in low motion scenes (ie low bitrate). Next I tried CBR at 2600kbps which stuttered and the audio would break up. I then tried CBR at 2400kpbs and everything worked great (192kbps audio), but this only gave me ~30mins per disc.

These are the settings I use for my 444
2100 Avg
1900 Min
2400 Max

Audio 192

Frame size = 480x576 interlaced (but I have tried 480x480 with 3:2 pullup)

Audio is 44.1khz (as per the spec)

Muxed in bbMpeg with the SVCD profile
Sue, if you burn in Nero, does it say any message about your file being invalid for SVCD profile?

The only other thing I can think of is the media you are writing to. I use RW's making SVCDs is easy to mess up, so you can just blank them again. My last player (panasonic) would only play RWs as the reflective properties are nearer to that of DVD. You could try burning to RW. I have tried R's and they worked, but it's just a suggestion

Jim

[matt-o]

you just gotta keep that max bit rate below spec
my 525 plays any thing as long as it stays below 2600 total. just lower the bit rate a little! good luck

[sue denim]

Thanks again for all your help guys!

Guess what ....... I'VE DONE IT!!!

I managed to burn an superb quality SVCD using DVDx 1.6 and the LSX encoder plugin - then Nero5 to burn!
I've tried loads of different bitrates (video and audio) and everything works fine.
Only thing now is I can't produce an interlaced SVCD, only progressive. But that's a minor point!

Matt & Jim - you're both right about the max bitrate being around the 2600kb/sec mark. If I stay under that, everything's cool. Thanks.

Just out of interest .... JIM - what MPEG encoder do you use?

A REALLY REALLY BIG THANK YOU TO ALL WHO'VE CONTRIBUTED TO THIS THREAD - YOU GUY'S ARE THE BEST!

Love Sue xxx.

[bbb]

You just get wierd audio? My audio plays before the video (desynced).

This always happens when I use Tmpgenc using anything other than CBR. My VBR settings are 600-2520 (min-max) and 2000 (average). I will try tightening the numbers to see if this fixes the sync problem because CBR uses up too much space.

On another note, CCE creates perfectly synced SVCDs using the VBR settings 600-2520 (min-max) and 2000 (avg). But the thing is, I can't use Search on my dvd player with CCE made files. Does anyone know a solution to CCE and searching?

[sue denim]

Hi bbb!
The only audio sync problem I have is when I encode a VCD (ie.MPEG1) with VBR. I did this in TMPEGenc 2.02 and, up until now, it's the only one I've tried. LSX-encoder won't let me do any VBR MPEG1 encoding!

The sync is slightly weird by the fact that it appears to be a fixed gap and doesn't drift.
Also, the audio is about half a sec behind the video, which is quite unusual as it's normally the other way around.

Anyhow, I'll do some tests to try and fix this and I'll get back to you ........

So, on to you ..... it's a little difficult to sort your CCE-search problem without knowing what make and model of dvd player you're using for playback. Can you enlighten us please?

Cheers,
Sue xxx

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: sue denim on 2002-01-14 02:18:06 ]</font>

[dattrax]

Sue, I have used a number of encoders to make disks for the 444. When I was having problems like yourself I even resorted to trying a demo of CCE to see if Tmpeg was the problem.

In reguard to interlace, it should work, as I have made both progressive and interlaced disks that work great. Just make sure you select the correct field order which can alter depending on your capture device and your encoder (there is no definitive setting).

Just try one and if it doesn't work try the other.

If I have time (and if I remember), I'll post some profiles for TMPEG.

Jim

[bbb]

I'm experiencing search problem on my Pioneer 440 (close relative to the 444). The problem is, when using CCE for SVCDs, I can't search by time; I can only fast foward or rewind. Sync is perfect with CCE.

When using Tmpgenc for SVCDs, like you said CBR works perfect. But, VBR on Mpeg2 desyncs the audio and video (I think audio comes 1-2 seconds after the video). VBR works well on Mpeg1 files.

I will do more testing myself tommorrow or so.

[JoeB]

Here's my experience with the Pioneer brand.. (I have a DV343 and a DV444).

(4:3 Video -> NTSC)

Use VirtualDUB only for CCE, otherwise skip to encoding part:

- Load the AVI/whatever in Virtual Dub. Add the resize filter, select 480x480 and check the interlaced box. Make sure you use Bicubic or precise bicubic.

Start the frameserver (make sure to add the .vdr ending in the name).

Load up CCE 2.25/2.50 or TMPGENC, and set the following settings:

2-pass VBR (3 pass for CCE) with:

Min: 1900
Avg: 2300
Max: 2520
Audio 192kbis/sec stereo

Use TMPGENC to mux audio/video together if using CCE, otherwise MPEG2 file comes out of TMPGENC.

The end result is ~30-35 minutes per 80 min CD, but the quality is AMAZING! Very high motion is PERFECT with no blocks!

JoeB

P.S. For those of you doing test, for crying out load, buy a CDRW disc to do the tests.. don't waste single time burn disc's!

[adamv]

JoeB,
I'm trying what you said. I used MGI 4(is this any good) to capture the DV and I'm using TMPE to encode. The tape is 55 minutes and it tells me it's going to take 13 hours! Is that because I picked the highest motion search quality? Also it's not possible for be to adjust the audio down to 192. It doesn't give me the option. Am I doing something wrong?

Adam

[adamv]

OK, I finished my svcd using JoeB's TPMG specs. The quality is not good. Is this due to my capture by MGI 4? The .avi quality looks great when played on my computer, and when encoded. I burned using Nero at 10X. Although the audio and video both came out the quality on my DV-444 was awfull.

Adam V

[sue denim]

..... WOW! Slow that burn speed down a bit mate!! .....

If you burn any faster than x4 you're really asking for trouble.
Your encoded MPEG file plays back with good quality on your PC right? Then the fault must be in the burn process somewhere.

With the encoding settings above, my DV-444's playback is very jumpy - lowering the video bitrate to something nearer 2400 max. gave superb results.

Sue xxx.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: sue denim on 2002-01-16 06:31:10 ]</font>

[adamv]

Sue, Thanks for the advice but burning at 4x didn't help either (just tried), The biggest problem are the ghosts (blur) when I panned the camera. The origional dv looks great and the avi file does as well. It's been 2 weeks now and I still can't get a decent svcd!
fyi, the svcd picture when the camera was kept still is just ok.

Adam

[homerpez]

... how about this one on a DV-343?

SVCD (480x480)
Encoded with CCE Video, TMPGEnc Audio
Multiplexed by bbMPEG (SVCD Scan offsets added)

Bitrate:
MIN: 600-1000
AVG: 900-1670
MAX: 2520

Will this work on a Pioneer? If not, my Apex is drastically better and I'll just stick with that.

[sue denim]

Hi everybody! ..... I'M BACK!!

Just to say that I've started a new thread on this issue and as far as I'm concerned, this one is now dead.

Please feel free to carry it on if any of you guys wish ..!

Thanks for all the help - Sue xxx.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: sue denim on 2002-01-17 14:41:55 ]</font>

[RoopeT]

To bbb:

when using CCE for SVCDs, I can't search by time; I can only fast foward or rewind

This is not because of CCE but a mastering issue. If you use BBMpg to multiplex audio and video and the VCDEasy for SVCD mastering and burning (turn PBC off), you should be able to search just fine!