Nero, Xvid, or Divx

[czhower]

Goals

1) Convert DVDs to a more compact format for storing on my hard drive and accessible by my media device using TVersity or other type software. My kids keep destroying the discs, and I dont want even copied DVDs laying around, want them all easily accessible by a menu

2) Procedure must be relatively easy, prefer batches. Im not to picky about time, I have a fairly peppy machine ( http://www.KudzuWorld.com/PowerfulPortable )

3) Quality should be decent. I dont need HD qualitiy, but I dont want VHS quality and I want some of my movies there too, I really hate it when I get encodes that turn to large blocks a lot.

4) Currently I have a DLink DSM320RD but I hate it ( http://www.kudzuworld.com/blogs/tech/20070222.aspx ). So I want a format that it can play or TVersity or other can easily transcode to for it. I will be using a different device or Windows Media center more likely for another station.

Options

1) Divx - Im really really happy with the quality of Divx. When Divx works, the output is excellent and my media device can play them natively over the network without transcoding, or off of burned DVD-R's in DIVX format. PROBLEM: Divx sucks from the usability and stability standpoint. About half of the inputs I feed it come out with audio out of sync, and about 5% just crash DIVX. The answer of DIVX users is "Demux, and remux, if that doesnt work do X, if that doesnt work do Y, and Z, adn A and B and C" So teh basic DIVX process is - convert. Did it work? 50% time yes, 50% time then try A. Did that fix it? No Try B, Try C.. .and you have to have 80 pieces of software installed and often convert a video half a dozen times or more before it works. This is NOT acceptable. The Divx forums are full of users all complaining about the same issues for years, with no response from Divx. And a 50% fail rate is HIGH. Its even more amazing that while Divx users defend the audio out of sync and a few other things because of "reason bla bla or bla bla", none of us users really care, especially when EVERY video player in the world I've tried on the same sources, as well as Nero Recode NEVER has that issue.....

2) Xvid - I havent tried it lately. I guess AutoGK would be the way to go, and learn to make batch files of my own for easy access. I was concerned about quality, but reading some reviews it appears with a little tweaking XVid can match Divx for quality (It didnt in my original tests, and difference at same bitrates was noticeable in quality). If I can get it to ouput in a compatible way that a DIVX device such as the DLink 320RD can read it without transcoding, perfect. I know its possible, many of the torrents of TV shows I watch are done with Xvid.

3) Nero Recode - Ive only done some basic testing with this. I had one that failed miserably, but I think I was a bit over zealous with some options and hit a big in Nero. I backed off my settings and so far it seems pretty good, but Im not willing to commit to it yet. Outpout its MP4, which looking forward seems pretty good. I havent tried to play them on the DLink yet, but the specs say it can do MP4. If it cannot, Ive tested transcoding via TVersity and it works fine. Since Nero has directshow filters, it should work fine too. This means I have to put discs in the computer, refresh the media library and then watch instead of just popping a disc in though.. that lowers the usabiltiy since thats too hard to explain to some members of my family, and I dont want them messing with that computer anyways......

So #3 is maybe my best option with transcoding, and later changing to windows media center. Has anyone had issues with Nero Recode in such a scenario? What about xvid? is it worth considering? Xvid has some advantages, including one that I can more easily program it (as a software developer) it would seem than Nero (unless Nero installs a pluggable encoder as well? )

Comments? Suggestions? Im REALLY REALLY fed up with Divx. Im open to it, but not unless it can be made to be reliable as an encoder.

[Bjs]

Definetly xvid , less issues , easily done via batch , and tools are free , but then it comes down to the allowed space each is being given , on the balance , in the search for quality , dosent it .

Thats where the truth of the problem lies , and you'll want to use multiple pass during the encode to improve the final quality , but once you have the ground work covered , its not only reliable , less proned to issues , and bullet proof , you'll remember the process without having to think about it .

You can scratch the blazes out of an xvid on a cd , and my players will happily play them without issue , but do that to a dvd , and you might as well throw it in the bin .

Cd is a greate media format for mobility , but dvd dosent like traveling about too much .

Personally , I like to have them all somewhere abouts 600 to 710mbs , depending on the play back time lengths , just incase I want to put one on a cd sometime later .

The most problematic issue is with dvds being converted that contain audio spikes , which are only picked up during pc playback , and not on regular players . This really affects the final outcome , and you wont know this till the tool converting it has completed the task , unless you verified the dvd by playing the entire thing from start to finish .

Then you have all the other minor issues related to video .

Try the dvd "without a paddle" , nice trick guys , but to those of us who know better , it dosent work .

----

Now if they stopped playing about and made on a home player for rmvb , I'd be happy , my conversions put nero's mp4 to shame .

[jagabo]

Your A/V sync issues have nothing to do with video codecs. It's a matter of the programs you use.

Divx is much faster than Xvid at the default settings. Quality is similar. Xvid may be a little better.

I convert in single pass constant quantizer (constant quality) mode. This way I get the quality I want regardless of the nature of the source. I'm not putting movies on CDs so I don't care about the exact file size.

Nero Digital (AVC mode) is good if you can live with MP4. I prefer Divx/Xvid AVI so my files are compatible with the computer as well as set-top Divx/DVD players.

[czhower]

Your A/V sync issues have nothing to do with video codecs. It's a matter of the programs you use.

Divx Convertor, Dr Divx, and so on. In fact Ive tried dozens of programs, and with Divx is always persists even when other encoders dont. You can check the Divx forums out - the AV sync is soooo prevalent that it is quite amazing and the answer always is "try u, if that doesnt work try x, if that doesnt work....".

Most times the solution is to demux it, but by the time you rip, demux, reencode.. thats a lot of steps and not even repeatable as thats not always the "fix". Take the same inputs though for Nero and it has no issues. And same for the XVid tests I did - but one thing to note to be fair I never tried the SAME program to try Divx vs Xvid in this scenario.

So all the "good" programs for Divx ALL exhibited SAME behavior. Nero didnt. Others didnt with Xvid, but I was seeing really bad quality in comparison to the programs that output using Divx encoder. So coder or not - its at least associative and the net result is the same.

Im looking for something that is essentially like Divx convertor (but a little more advanced) and something I can also later control easily progmatically and or from a command line. Dr Divx is "ok" but it crashes a fair bit and still has AV sync issues. Nero is decent.

Divx is much faster than Xvid at the default settings. Quality is similar. Xvid may be a little better.

Yes I know Divx is faster WHEN it works. But considering some things I have to encode a half dozen times and test each - Divx in the end is a LOT slower. Id rather have slower encoding but reliable. Also I have a peppy machine (Dual core, 3.6 GHz) with fast drives (RAID 0, SATA) and lots of RAM (4G)

I burn in single pass constant quantizer (constant quality) mode. This way I get the quality I want. I'm not putting movies on CDs so I don't care about the exact file size.

I dont care about exact file size, but Im doing quite a few so I do care overall. Ive done tests between 1 and 1.5 GBs bitrate and with Divx you can easily get acceptable results, and Nero too. I think the last Nero test I did at 1.26 and it was very good. I never achieved good results with Xvid even at 1.5, so if I choose xvid I need to find out what I was doing wrong. I *always* do highest quality and multi pass.

Nero is good if you can live with MP4. I prefer Divx/Xvid AVI so my files are compatible with the computer as well as set-top Divx/DVD players.

Im aware of a few of the disadvantages of MP4 - but what would you point out? Id prefer I can play on a DIVX player as is - but since in the future Ill prob only use Windows Media centers which can play anything, I can transcode for now to my media device on the fly. But Id prefer to stay divx player compat if possible...

[jagabo]

Your A/V sync issues have nothing to do with video codecs. It's a matter of the programs you use.

Divx Convertor, Dr Divx, and so on. In fact Ive tried dozens of programs, and with Divx is always persists even when other encoders dont... So all the "good" programs for Divx ALL exhibited SAME behavior. Nero didnt.

I use VirtualDubMod and virtually never have A/V sync issues with Divx, Xvid, or any other output codec.

Nero is good if you can live with MP4. I prefer Divx/Xvid AVI so my files are compatible with the computer as well as set-top Divx/DVD players.

Im aware of a few of the disadvantages of MP4 - but what would you point out? Id prefer I can play on a DIVX player as is - but since in the future Ill prob only use Windows Media centers which can play anything, I can transcode for now to my media device on the fly. But Id prefer to stay divx player compat if possible...

My only real objection to the MP4 container is the lack of support in set-top players.

[SCDVD]

You might want to check out Fair Use Wizard. It support both Divx and Xvid. It has a number of nice features and is quite flexible to use. It has a default mode that makes it very easy to use but it can also be used by someone more expert with a lot of flexibility in varying parameters.

[czhower]

Your A/V sync issues have nothing to do with
My only real objection to the MP4 container is the lack of support in set-top players.

Is it just the container? My playler says it supports MP4 IIRC, but I had troubles with one I tried before, might have been an encoding setting though I was messing about a bit then.

There is a MP4toAVI tool which does not recode but just repackages. Ive heard that it works for the 320RD?

If container is not an issue - how would you compare XVid vs Nero/MP4?

[czhower]

You might want to check out Fair Use Wizard. It support both Divx and Xvid. It has a number of nice features and is quite flexible to use. It has a default mode that makes it very easy to use but it can also be used by someone more expert with a lot of flexibility in varying parameters.

If FairUse works, it looks like it might be something like what Im looking for. But I tried it already found 2 issues, one of which is pretty major:

1) Cant seem to set bitrate, only quantizer or output size

2) Cant browse to files on disk. Requires me to select a physical DVD, or an ISO only...

[jagabo]

My only real objection to the MP4 container is the lack of support in set-top players.

Is it just the container?

Nero lets you specify ASP (MPEG 4 part 2, essentially the same as Xvid and DIvx) or AVC (MPEG 4 part 10, aka h.264) encoding for the video. There is virtually no support for AVC in set-top boxes. I think Nero always uses AAC for the audio which is also generally not supported. But the MP4 container can also contain MP2 or MP3 audio.

My playler says it supports MP4 IIRC, but I had troubles with one I tried before, might have been an encoding setting though I was messing about a bit then.

Your player probably says it supports MPEG 4 (which generally means MPEG 4 part 2 = ASP = Divx = Xvid) in an AVI container. Very few players support the MP4 container.

There is a MP4toAVI tool which does not recode but just repackages. Ive heard that it works for the 320RD?

I don't know much about the 320RD. I suspect it will play AVI with ASP only. Probably not AVC and AAC. And probably nothing in an MP4 container.

If container is not an issue - how would you compare XVid vs Nero/MP4?

Nero with ASP is pretty much the same video quality as Xvid and Divx. AVC can deliver better quality at the same bitrate (file size), the same quality at a lower bitrate, or something in between.

[GMaq]

Hi,
I have a DSM 320 and an iPod as well, I have movies with DivX ,XVid,3ivx and Nero Digital. They all play on both devices (note you can't have ASP for iPod's). The best compliance for the DSM-320 are by far the Nero Digital files, Many times the DivX and XVid ones will playback choppy until I playback a Nero Digital file, this is a documented bug of the DSM-320. Nero digital files always playback with no issues, and the quality at the same bitrate is equivalent with all of them. That's not to say that there is anything wrong with the other Codecs but in the specific case of the DSM-320 Nero can't be beat. Also IMO the quality of the TVersity on-the-fly transcoding is not a fix for the DSM-320 to playback other formats, H.264 files transcoded look far worse than if you had just encoded them to regular MPEG-4 in the first place.

[czhower]

Hi,
I have a DSM 320 and an iPod as well, I have movies with DivX ,XVid,3ivx and Nero Digital. They all play on both devices (note you can't have ASP for iPod's). The best compliance for the DSM-320 are by far the Nero Digital files, Many times the DivX and XVid ones will playback choppy until I playback a Nero Digital file, this is a documented bug of the DSM-320. Nero digital files always playback with no issues, and the quality at the same bitrate is equivalent with all of them. That's not to say that there is anything wrong with the other Codecs but in the specific case of the DSM-320 Nero can't be beat. Also IMO the quality of the TVersity on-the-fly transcoding is not a fix for the DSM-320 to playback other formats, H.264 files transcoded look far worse than if you had just encoded them to regular MPEG-4 in the first place.

TVersity recodes to MPeg2, and the quality is a setting and dependent on your CPU and network. I have a hefty CPU and I use the wired connection. Transcoding produces definitely acceptable results for me.

Also the 320 is short term for me. Its been a HUGE disapointment and Im glad I got it on a clearance special else I would be really upset had I paid a normal price for it. Since then Ive been on 320 forums and nearly everyone has the same experience. I only paid 99 Euro for it, but for 300 or so I can easily build a better windows media system.

Thanks for the confirm on Nero recode. I thought it might because they list Nero Recode as a preferred package for it on the DLink site. Ill give it a test with SD or a CDR and Nero will let me then move forward as well in the future with a Windows Media Center, or if someone releases a stand alone media player that actually passes usability testing....

[czhower]

WOW! A very informative reply. I wish I had come here first instead of spending months in the DIVX forums.

Nero lets you specify ASP (MPEG 4 part 2, essentially the same as Xvid and DIvx) or AVC (MPEG 4 part 10, aka h.264) encoding for the video. There is virtually no support for AVC in set-top boxes. I think Nero always uses AAC for the audio which is also generally not supported. But the MP4 container can also contain MP2 or MP3 audio.

Thats perfect for what I wanted - to know what Nero was actually coding to. So AVC though appears standard (264). Thats what IPOD and others use, and its a standard correct? So if I chose AVC, while existing players do not support it future ones likely will?

[GMaq]

czhower,
I feel the same as you about the DSM-320, It's so close to being good - very frustrating. I just ended up buying a cheap used Dell computer and hooking it up to my Plasma TV, no playback compatibility issues with VLC, far superior picture quality with the RGB connection, and TIVO with my old ATI All-In-Wonder. I still hope they can improve the DSM-320's with firmware updates, but there haven't been any for a long time. It would be great to have h.264 playback. Anyway best of luck with your setup!

[czhower]

Check the DLink 320 forum (unofficial). There are updates, but not available to most of the world. Although they have promised to release source soon... Yes the cheap media PC is the route Im going too.

[jagabo]

I have a few Divx/DVD players but my main media player is an old Windows PC connected to a TV.

I suspect h.264, AAC, and the MP4 container will be supported more and more (although different devices will have different limitations on frame size, bitrate, etc).

BTW, just out of curiosity, what's wrong with the DSM320? It looks good on paper...

[czhower]

BTW, just out of curiosity, what's wrong with the DSM320? It looks good on paper...

Good idea, hideous implementation. Here is my review, but if you search on the net you will find pretty much everyone agrees with my review in their own reviews...

http://www.kudzuworld.com/blogs/tech/20070222.aspx

[GMaq]

I have a few Divx/DVD players but my main media player is an old Windows PC connected to a TV.

I suspect h.264, AAC, and the MP4 container will be supported more and more (although different devices will have different limitations on frame size, bitrate, etc).

BTW, just out of curiosity, what's wrong with the DSM320? It looks good on paper...

jagabo,
Yes the DSM-320 DOES look fabulous on paper, funnily enough I bought mine because you sent me a link about it a few months ago (not that you're responsible in any way for me purchasing it!)I would agree with most of the issues in the blog above. Some of them can be worked out with playlists, the DSM-320 does support playlists, and as for accessing a particular time index it is possible but not convenient. A major bummer is no chapter support as well. It does support Non-DRM AAC audio and has no problem at all with .mp4 files as long as they aren't AVC. Therein is the next problem, they bundle it with Nero Recode which would lead one to believe it can playback all the files that Recode produces, not so at all because there is no AVC decoding. Also it is really funny with DivX,XVid and 3ivX files in an .mp4 container at least. Even at low bitrates the playback is choppy. If you play 30 seconds or so of a Clip that you know will play smoothly then go back to the "choppy" clip it will playback just fine. VERY annoying, try explaining that to a small child! 2 firmware updates have not corrected this issue, and it is a documented issue. No AVC No DRM AAC, No Chapters, Unexplainable DivX etc. Quirkiness. That's why I don't like mine. - I'll sell it to you if you like!!!

[czhower]

[quote="GMaqand as for accessing a particular time index it is possible but not convenient.[/quote]

How? Maybe it was in one of the updates? The EU model has seen NO updates unless you want to hack the non EU updates in yourself. ;(

They promised to release the source about 2 months back - but it has not been done. If it is done, the 320 will become a hit overnight....

[GMaq]

[quote=czhower]

How? Maybe it was in one of the updates? The EU model has seen NO updates unless you want to hack the non EU updates in yourself. ;(

They promised to release the source about 2 months back - but it has not been done. If it is done, the 320 will become a hit overnight....

czhower,
I have the DSM-320 without the DVD player, I don't know if there is any other differences. On mine you can choose either FF or REW mode or search mode, FF and REW are very hard to accurately control and always overshoot where you are trying to get to, if you hit the button twice it will advance to the next video. I use "Search" mode. If you hit the search key then it will ask you to enter the time index you want to access, then you can fumble with your adult fingers on the tiny, closely spaced buttons and enter the time code. If you take a guess and enter a time 5 minutes beyond where you left off the night before, you have to repeat the entire process over again. I'm from Canada and can't even get the US firmware updates. I have to wait for the Canadian ones!! At least there have been a couple, sounds like you are out of luck. By the way the latest update did fix the aspect ratio problem over here, I guess that's some progress!

[czhower]

The search button on the 320RD ONLY works on normal DVD's... *nothing* else. Pushing it says "invalid operation".

Worse yet, the DVD player is useless becuase its region locked for western Europe. Where I live DVD shops and rental places sell all regions becuase we are in the middle, so even for DVD I cant use it and use my original DVD player which is multi region. (And it plays DIVX XVID disks too).

So the 320RD only use to me is that it has an ethernet and wifi connetion... the SD was used once or twice.. but not really useful.

[jagabo]

czhower, thanks for the link to your review. It sounds like the device has some shortcomings but tHe lack of FF, FR, and seek is a real killer! I have a Liteon LDV-2002 and a Philips DVP-5960 (Divx/DVD players). They both have annoying quirks and limitations too.

GMaq, I'm sorry my linking to the device was partially responsible for your unhappiness!

On the bright side, if they do eventually release the source it may become a dream machine. I have a hard drive based MP3 player in my car. It was OK before but when they went open source it became really great. All the bugs were fixed and lots of new features were added.

[GMaq]

@jagabo,
I've gotten a lot of good advice from you in many threads as well so we'll call it even! (:-b)