applying macrovision or equivalent

[devdev]

hi

i produce wedding dvds and occasionally, i'd like to encrypt my dvds in such a way that they cannot be copied..

Where could i get macrovision or equivalent and is it easy to do please?

also - is it possible to get a dvd recorder that can apply marcovision optionally too?

that would would simplier thamn going via pc route

kind regards

[mats.hogberg]

It's been beaten to death, this question. Make a search. Consensus: If the Movie industry can't do it, what makes you think you can?
Best bet is to add some non referenced "filler" content, and physically damage the outer edge of the disk (where the filler content will be). MacroVision will only defeat analog copying, and that's generally not how DVDs are copied.

/Mats

[thecoalman]

Just to add to what Matt's said even if still want to go ahead you have to pay for it, increasing your costs. AFAIK you can only put it on replicated DVD's (e.g pressed by a replication service $$$). Other than that there's a sticky for some tips and tricks but most involve physically damaging the disc.

[Richard_G]

Ulead DVD Workshop 2 can encode with Macrovision. It doesn't stop the sort of people that come on here but it stops someone trying to copy from DVD to VHS tape. I use it on all the final products that I send out (as I offer a choice of DVD or VHS), it stops anyone ordering a DVD and then copying to VHS for their friends.

[Scooter_NJ]

Truth be told, as the one who PAID for the DVD to be produced, I be pissed that I couldn't make my own copies of my own event. You may want to re-think this.

[Richard_G]

I don't know if the law in the US is different, but the copyright for the event belongs to the customer who commissioned the video to be made. Unless the copyright for the video has been assigned to the customer, the rights to the video production belong to the person that made it. They were the ones that turned YOUR event into THEIR video, so no, you can't copy it.

I shoot video of stage productions of dance events. Anyone watching a copy of my video and using part of the choreography can be sued by my customer for infringing their copyright. Anyone copying my video can be sued by me for infringing mine.

[GeorgeW]

Ulead DVD Workshop 2 can encode with Macrovision. It doesn't stop the sort of people that come on here but it stops someone trying to copy from DVD to VHS tape. I use it on all the final products that I send out (as I offer a choice of DVD or VHS), it stops anyone ordering a DVD and then copying to VHS for their friends.

Do you send out to have your DVD's replicated, or do you burn them yourself

Regards,
George

[Richard_G]

Most jobs I do require around 100 copies so these are burnt. Minimum batch size for replication is 500 units so for any job that needs around 250 or more copies, it becomes cheaper to have them replicated and throw the excess away!

[GeorgeW]

Most jobs I do require around 100 copies so these are burnt. Minimum batch size for replication is 500 units so for any job that needs around 250 or more copies, it becomes cheaper to have them replicated and throw the excess away!

Macrovision flags on burned discs "might" work -- depending on the dvd player. However, there are fees that are supposed to be paid for the use of Macrovision on your discs (you would usually pay the Replicator a per-disc fee to include Macrovision protection). If you are burning your discs with the Macrovision flags turned on, there might be some fees that you have not been paying

Regards,
George

[dnix71]

You can't stop copying. You can make it more difficult. Even Columbia/Sony best efforts have been beaten.

You should charge a fair fee for your time and walk away afterward. Macrovision removal by itself is very trivial.

[VegasBud]

Macrovision can't be put on a burned disk. Some authoring software (like Ulead DVD Workshop) let the user set bits in the vobu_cat field (offset 31h) of the navpacks, and the result can be burned to a dvd, but a dvd burner is incapable of also altering the disk's sector headers as required.

That partial implementation might be a deterrent on a subset of players, but if it was even modestly effective, I can absolutely guarantee that macrovision wouldn't allow the practice, at least without some mechanism to guarantee they got paid.

[Richard_G]

You should charge a fair fee for your time and walk away afterward. Macrovision removal by itself is very trivial.

So what you're saying is that Hollywood should sell there first batch of DVD releases and then give away any subsequent batches then? DVDs of the shows are shoot are bought by the performers and their families. Some order at the time, others wait until the first batch have gone out and then order a copy. I am getting customers contacting me asking if they can still buy a copy of a video I shot in May last year. For whatever reason they didn't order at the time and have only just got round to it. Are you saying I should give them a copy or suggest they just contact someone who has already paid for their copy and ask if they can rip it off?

Get real or try living in the business world.

[mats.hogberg]

Don't let this thread deteriorate into a DRM squabble.
The problem is, most DVD backup software will by default remove both MacroVision and CSS.
So, if someone asks a customer for a copy of the disc he's bought, if he at all knows how to create such a backup, it will be as simple to backup the "protected" disc, as an unprotected.
At this point, only new ARccOS protections may stall the Average Joe. AFAIK, all these protection schemes comes with a fee/royalty you have to pay.

/Mats

[devdev]

wow - i must say that im suprised by the ferocity of some of these opinions! but thank you all!

to put things in perspective if say a school asks me to film their school play, they often do so on the basis of a very low fee plus a small minimum of dvd copies (20 or so) this means that my only way of recovering/making any money all is via something like macrovision.. since mums will happily run copies off themselves otherwise and the last time i looked i wasn't a charity!

[oldandinthe way]

devdev

You might consider whether your business strategy is valid.

If you are not properly compensated for your labor and skills, you probably have the wrong strategy.

You cannot rely on preventing the copying of your product to make your strategy effective.

Frankly I think the responses have been mild.

You have received well targeted consulting on your business practices - for free.

In summary - copy protection is not going the contribute significantly to your business success. Adapt your strategy and practices to accept this, or pursue another form of business.

[stantheman1976]

Dev, I can speak from experience. I've filmed a few beauty pageants and homecoming stuff for my wife's school. These high school kids know all about copying discs, so once the initial batch goes out that's it. That's why we just take orders for a couple weeks and deliver all the dics at one time. Trying to stop this kind of video from being copied is pretty much pointless. Take orders for a time and deliver. Consider what you make off that initial batch the fruits of your labor and be happy. That's the best I can tell you.

[Captain Video]

Yep, Trying to prevent people from copying DVD is like trying to let water out of a boat with a drill like Curly in the 3 Stooges !!!

[Richard_G]

I work in a similar manner to Devdev, except I don't charge to film the production at all. I do it for free. I need to sell around 20 copies of a DVD to just cover my costs, so I stipulate a minimum order quantity of 25. The initial orders are usually around 80-100 so those are supplied in one batch. Follow on orders usually bring the total up to around 120-140. To my knowledge, nobody has copied any of my discs and I suspect it isn't as commonplace as people on here think.W

We all know how to copy a protected disc, the average member of the public knows, if they have even tried, that they can't simply put a DVD in their computer and tell Nero to copy. Most don't know why and wouldn't bother trying. It isn't as widespread as those of us that are into it seem to think. Adding Macrovision is just an added extra just in case anyone tries an analogue copy.

[VegasBud]

Let me try this again. To be clear, I'm not talking about the business or moral implications of using macrovision on a dvdr, just the technological feasibility

When used on a dvd, macrovision is a two part implementation that relies on binary bits in each disk sector's header, and the vobu_cat field of the navpack for a given vobu. While software can set the bits in the vobu_cat field, the sector headers on a dvdr(+/-/-w/+w/-ram) are considered protected areas and can't be modified by any burner. As a result of this limitation put on recordable media, macrovision can not be fully implemented on a dvdr, nor can any other traditional copy protection measure. It was set up that way on purpose, and can't be circumvented with the equipment available.

Here are two links with Ulead's take on it:
1) This page says:

Add copyright protection to your DVD titles with Macrovision and CSS options when outputting to DLT tape for mass production.

2) This (more optimistic) page says:

The reliability of Macrovision on burned discs is less than on discs that have been pressed by replication. During replication, an encryption flag is set within the first 6 bytes of a sector, letting the DVD playing device know to search for Macrovision flags in the DVD content itself. Burned discs have no control over those first 6 bytes, so only DVD playing devices that continue to search for encryption flags, even though they did not see an encryption indicator in those first bits, will recognize the Macrovision copy protection.

One other thing to consider is what mats.hogberg said at the very beginning of this thread:

MacroVision will only defeat analog copying, and that's generally not how DVDs are copied.

Macrovision (even if fully implemented) would only have an effect if the user was trying to transfer the dvd to video tape. It wouldn't have any effect at all if the user intends to burn a copy of the disk.

EDIT: I had misspelled the word "software".

[Richard_G]

Thanks Vegasbud for the explanation. It all makes sense to me and by setting the flag obviously will enable Macrovision on the larger orders that I have replicated. Whether or not anyone is likely to actually try to copy them is going to vary wildly depending on the market. My customers are usually the middle aged that often don't even own a computer, let alone know how to copy a DVD. 10% of my orders are still for VHS as they don't own a DVD player! Consequently, I don't anticipate it to be much of a problem, BUT, if anyone was going to try to copy, it would almost certainly be by analogue methods.

[Cornucopia]

An added note to that last, to emphasize what VegasBud said earlier:

When 321 studios came out with DVDXCopy, Macrovision shut them down with HUGE fines! They did this by 1. calling upon the DMCA law if they wrote DVDXCopy to include Macrovision removal, and 2. calling upon PATENT infringement law if they wrote DVDXCopy to maintain the Macrovision flag. (this is what's known as, "Caught between a rock and a hard place" or "damned if I do and damned if I don't")

This is probably one of the ways they shut down DVDDecryptor, too.

IOW, MV is viscious when it comes to messing with their "flag". So if you don't press your discs (and pay the $$$$ that MV expects if you include it there), there's no way for them to TRACK your usage, so it's not a licensed method of using their patent. They will come down on you too if they EVER find out about it. Make no mistake, you don't want to be their b!tch when they smell blood!

Stay away from all forms of CP, change your business model, and everyone will be happier (you included).

Scott

[devdev]

thank you all for your help and advice
really appreciated!

[Nelson37]

Let me explain it this way.

I'm going to take one of your videos, do a crap job of re-encoding it with crap software, use a crap burner with crap media, scibble your company name on it with marker, put it in a cheapshit, cracked plastic case, and then I will distribute 100 copies of this POS that is clearly identified as your company product to various young couples coming out of jewelers, wedding planners, chapels, etc.

Assuming you couldn't catch me first, would you not PAY ME to not do that? ( I may have discovered a whole new career field here).

Make the damn copies AT COST, or even below. $2.00. Explain quality methods to customer. Or else put down the frigging camera and get into the disk duplication business.

These disks are not Product, they are Advertising. The Job of Filming is the money-maker.

Tell them that if they show your video to another couple who then purchases your services, they get 10-20 copies for free. In fact, tell them that the odds and your confidence in the quality of your work is such that you will ALREADY ASSUME this will happen, and they get 20 copies FOR FREE. Hint - The initial job pricing is already set.

Word of mouth is the best advertising. Think a young woman about to get married might be asking friends who have recently done the same what services they have used? As opposed to finding one in the phone book?

You are selling $500 to $1500 jobs. Would you spend $50.00 to get one? Are you aware that you probably already do? Would you do that all day long? If not, you are doing something wrong.