High Speed Copy problem with Pioneer 520

[punchball]

I've used my Pioneer 520 for some time now without this problem, but suddenly there's a problem. I think because of the type of programming I've now recorded.

I tried to copy several episodes of a TV show to DVD with High Speed Copy, but the recorder wouldn't let me ("High Speed copying cannot be used for this copy list with a Video Mode disc.") And I don't want to re-encode! I found out that the problem was only with some of the titles. I had Frame Accuracy on, and when I turned it off these titles had an exclamation mark in the copy screen, stating that "new titles will be created where the aspect ratio changes, because Frame Accurate is set to off". Adding one of these titles did split it in several titles, some only a few frames long. (As I said, with Frame Accuracy on, I could add the title without splitting it, but then couldn't use High Speed Copying.)

The problem is with the aspect ratio. Since I recorded a show in widescreen (non-anamorphic) and deleted commercial breaks, some of the apparently all-black video around the commercal breaks is in a different aspect ratio according to the recorder. When I delete it from the title, the problem is gone. I want to deleted as little as I have to of this (since there's not that much and it gradually fades to/from the program) so a method of trial and error is required, and the whole thing is very annoying.

Anybody else had problems with this type of thing? My big question is, why the hell does the recorder care what aspect ratio the title is in?? The reason I hadn't had this problem before, is that the TV station used to put a logo that was partly in the top black bar, but now it's entirely beneath the bar! (And movies are never a problem, whether recorded anamorphically or not.) So just because there are two all black bars on the signal, the Pioneer desides it's widescreen, and won't High Speed Copy it in the same title as non-widescreen video! Why?? It could just copy it as any other title. There must be some sort of different copy mode kicking in when it senses "widescreen", but it should've just copied it in "non-widescreen mode" when there are mixed ratios in one title (if it had been smart).

[Frobozz]

I'm unclear what you mean by widescreen (non-anamorphic). My understanding is there is 4:3 and 16:9. The former can contain letterboxed video. The latter is anamorphic. So to me widescreen (non-anamorphic) is 4:3 letterbox which is not a different aspect ratio than 4:3 full frame.

The Pioneer recorder needs to tag the anamorphic video as 16:9 or it will display as squeezed 4:3. So if the video is mixed with 4:3 video, how does it get tagged properly?

I wonder what would happen if you high-speed copied all the 4:3 titles and then high-speed copied all the 16:9 titles before finalizing the disc.

[Leoslocks]

I don't think yopu can high speed copy if using Frame Accurate editing.

[punchball]

I'm unclear what you mean by widescreen (non-anamorphic). My understanding is there is 4:3 and 16:9. The former can contain letterboxed video. The latter is anamorphic. So to me widescreen (non-anamorphic) is 4:3 letterbox which is not a different aspect ratio than 4:3 full frame.

The Pioneer recorder needs to tag the anamorphic video as 16:9 or it will display as squeezed 4:3. So if the video is mixed with 4:3 video, how does it get tagged properly?

16:9 (or 1.78:1) is an aspect ratio for a movie, but it can be stored on a DVD in several ways. There are also other aspect ratios, 2.35:1, 1.66:1, 1.85:1 - the latter is usually clipped/stretched so it's 1.78:1 on a DVD.

Technically the DVD format is always 480 x 720 pixels. If a movie on a DVD is in the aspect ratio 1.78:1 it can either be 4:3 letterboxed (black bars are stored on the DVD, wasting space), or 4:3 stretched vertically (the whole frame is dedicated to the movie). In the latter case, if you have a 4:3 TV you need to squeeze the frame back vertically in order to have an undistorted image, but if you have a 16:9 TV you need to stretch it horizontally, to fill the whole screen. As far as I know anamorphic just means there's a flag on the DVD that tells the player to squeeze the frame vertically (and add black bars on the top and bottom) if the player is set to 4:3 (meaning that you have a 4:3 TV). If the player is set to 16:9, it does nothing to the frame, keeping it stretched vertically. As far is I know, DVD players aren't able to send anything other than a 4:3 signal to the TV. The TV does the stretching horizontally.

So, there is no difference between anamorphic video and what you call "squeezed 4:3" (assuming you mean that it's squeezed horizontally - in actuality it's stretched vertically). The only difference is the flag, which only matters if you have a 4:3 TV and need the player to add black bars.
But for clarity's sake I'll call a DVD with the flag missing "quasi-anamorphic" instead of anamorphic.

I record movies in 16:9 from cable channels that airs digitally (via a digital decoder) and they are mostly shown stretched vertically. I need to stretch the frame horizontally with my TV when I watch them live. If I had a 4:3 TV I would change the aspect on the decoder so black bars are added (but I don't). When I record them on a DVD, they are stored quasi-anamorphically, (finally, the point:) the Pioneer does not add the flag. Since I have a 16:9 TV this doesn't matter.

Sorry if you knew all this (and if I'm wrong about something, please correct me), but I want to make sure we understand each other.

Anyway, what I meant with "widescreen (non-anamorphic)" was indeed letterboxed. The Pioneer player doesn't tag DVDs as true anamorphic, but that couldn't even have happened here. This wasn't stretched like anamorphic or quasi-anamorphic. I see no difference in the title on the HDD and on the DVD, so I assume the Pioneer stores the whole frame, including any black bars, no matter what. So what does it need to distinguish between "4:3 fullframe" and "4:3 letterboxed 16:9" for? What difference does it make? And why can't it just burn as "4:3 fullframe" when it senses different aspect ratios in one title?

I wonder what would happen if you high-speed copied all the 4:3 titles and then high-speed copied all the 16:9 titles before finalizing the disc.

There's no problem with high speed copying "4:3 titles" and "16:9 titles" on the same disc. The problem is when one title (on the HDD) has both ratios (according to the player). Then I can't high speed copy it, without first having to either split the title according to ratio, or deleting the "4:3" parts of it.

[punchball]

I don't think yopu can high speed copy if using Frame Accurate editing.

Yes you can, I always keep Frame Accurate on, and I always high speed copy. This is the first time there's been a problem.

[Frobozz]

Thanks for the detailed description. I think we have a similar understanding of this.

My Pioneer DVR-510H can automatically recognize a widescreen video source in which case it records it as vertically-stretched 4:3. It also automatically horizontally stretches it for playback on a 16:9 TV, or automatically adds black bars to the top and bottom or crops the video as pan & scan for playback on a 4:3 TV depending on the Pioneer's output settings. The only widescreen sources I have to connect to the Pioneer are from my camcorder or from iMovie HD. This works perfectly except the menu thumbnail is vertically stretched (the Pioneer doesn't do widescreen menus).

My cable box only outputs letterbox 4:3 via S-video from the HD widescreen channels. The Pioneer therefore records the black bars output by the cable box (a Motorola 6412) and treats the content as standard 4:3.

You note that the only problem you're experiencing is when the same title contains both 4:3 and widescreen content. I haven't faced this situation. I also don't edit with frame-accurate turned on. My sense is you've identified one of the limitations of editing on the Pioneer. An alternative could be to output via DV to a computer for editing with a 16:9-capable application. Then play it back via DV to the Pioneer for recording. I believe the Pioneer then will see the entire video file as being widescreen regardless if there is some standard 4:3 content mixed in with it.

[punchball]

Thanks for your reply.
I replied before, but the post seems to have gotten lost. :( I'll try to write it again.

Whether Frame Accurate is on or off really doesn't matter I've noticed. I only turned it off to find out where the problem was. If FA is off, you can't copy the "mixed title" at all (without splitting it or deleting parts of it first). if FA is on, you can copy it, but not high speed copy it.

You say that your player records letterboxed content as 4:3, with the black bars. So does mine! That's why it's so weird that it would need to distinguish between letterboxed 4:3 and fullframe 4:3, because I can't see that it treats the two any differently.

The DV port on the DVR-520 is only for input from a camcorder, outputting doesn't work very well and inputting from a computer doesn't work either. Even if I could do that, it wouldn't be any less hassle than identifying and deleting the fullframe parts of the title in order to burn it.

I can't believe nobody else has had this problem. Doesn't your cable box air any content that's fullscreen, like commercials? Is it letterboxed all the time?

[punchball]

Since I posted last, I've started recording with Frame Accurate off to avoid these problems.

I also found out that I'd not been getting an RGB signal from my cable decoder to my DVR. Switching the port from the decoder solved this. Now the DVR actually records the DAR (display aspect ratio) flag. This has created new problems, again related to the Pioneer's need to keep one title in one aspect ratio (i.e. either with DAR flag set to 4:3 or 16:9) but refusing to just copy the whole damn thing in 4:3.

A lot of the movies I record have their DAR flag changed 1-2 seconds after the movie starts (from 4:3 to 16:9). In these cases the Pioneer won't let me copy the title to a DVD without splitting the first 1-2 second off in a new title. It says "New titles will be created where the aspect ratio changes. Ok to continue?" It's just 1-2 seconds of the opening logo so I can live with it. But a couple of times, seemingly because of some error from the TV station, the DAR flag has changed in the middle of a program.

Now, if I turn Frame Accurate ON before copying a title like this, I don't get the error message, but it's also impossible to high speed copy. I have to re-encode. So these are my two choices: re-encoding or splitting the title into several. Actually on some occasions, with the Frame Accurate off, I've been told that it "cannot edit" the title at all - so I HAVE TO re-encode.

Now I've seen a new one too: "Low resolution widescreen content will not be included. OK to continue?" The whole title is "low resolution widescreen" (except the first 1-2 seconds if this is in 4:3), så nothing will be included (except 1-2 seconds). This happens with titles that are recorded with the DAR to set 16:9, but below a certain resolution setting. One title this happened to was MN13, another MN18. My only choise is to turn Frame Accurate on and re-encode the whole thing.

I'm generally very happy with the quality of my Pioneer DVR-520, but these kinds of things are getting more and more annoying. My next DVR won't be a Pioneer if this isn't corrected.

So, still nobody with similar problems?

[Seeker47]

Now, if I turn Frame Accurate ON before copying a title like this, I don't get the error message, but it's also impossible to high speed copy. I have to re-encode. So these are my two choices: re-encoding or splitting the title into several. Actually on some occasions, with the Frame Accurate off, I've been told that it "cannot edit" the title at all - so I HAVE TO re-encode.

Now I've seen a new one too: "Low resolution widescreen content will not be included. OK to continue?" The whole title is "low resolution widescreen" (except the first 1-2 seconds if this is in 4:3), så nothing will be included (except 1-2 seconds). This happens with titles that are recorded with the DAR to set 16:9, but below a certain resolution setting. One title this happened to was MN13, another MN18. My only choise is to turn Frame Accurate on and re-encode the whole thing.

I'm generally very happy with the quality of my Pioneer DVR-520, but these kinds of things are getting more and more annoying. My next DVR won't be a Pioneer if this isn't corrected.

Well, it won't be anyway, if the reports of Pioneer getting out of this product category are correct. (And they seem to be far from alone in this exodus, as discussed in some recent VH threads.)

So, still nobody with similar problems?

Uh . . . No. And I've recorded / transferred at least a couple hundred movies and other programs, thus far. (But I don't use Frame Accurate Edit Mode, for whatever that may be worth.) This leads me to wonder whether there might be some factor here that is particular to either: 1) Your cable or sat provider, OR 2) the connections setup you are employing.

This is not to say that I've experienced zero problems. Like a number of others, I have run into occasional "Copy Err" failrues on burning DVDs, but, fortunately, these seem to have been transitory. More likely related to the odd bad disc, or too heavily edited material within the Copy List, rather than to signs of impending burner failure.

btw, I now also have the successor model 640, though I haven't yet had that much opportunity to use it. Various functional tradeoffs -- advantages, disadvantages -- as between the two. But my experience to date strongly suggests that these are excellent units, among the best that have appeared to date.

[punchball]

Thanks for replying. As I said in my last post, I have Frame Accurate set to off when recording.
I pulled out the old manual again, and found this on page 62:

When Frame Accurate is set to Off (see Frame Accurate on page 102), the following limitations on adding titles to the Copy List apply:
- When adding titles that contain material of more than one aspect ratio (screen size), each part with a different aspect ratio will be added as a separate title.
- Widescreen material recorded in LP, EP or MN1-18 will not be added to the Copy List.

This is obviously what I've been experiencing. But it's not very apparent just from reading it what they actually mean. When I first got the Pioneer and read that, I thought I could just set Frame Accurate to On and it would be all good. What they mean, it turns out, is that if the Pioneer labels the content as widescreen, then you can't copy it to a DVD if it's also non-widescreen content in the same title, and you can't copy it to a DVD if it's MN1-18. And, there's sadly no way to mark it as non-widescreen, the only way to achieve that is to re-encode it (after setting Frame Accurate to On for some reason). That's the disaster, because it would have been easy to include an option to copy it as non-widescreen content. The DAR flag is completely separate from the video signal per se, it's only a flag to tell the TV or whatever to stretch or not stretch the image.

And - a "great" way to get your content marked as widescreen is to send the DAR flag 16:9 with the signal from the cable decoder. If you haven't experienced this, that probably means that you don't get "true" digital widescreen anamorphic content from your cable or sat box? I'm in Europe, maybe there's some difference in how cable or sat providers supply the signals to the consumers. You know when you play a DVD, the DAR flag will make your TV automatically switch to 16:9? Well that happens here with the TV programs too - provided you connected it via RGB.

Anyway, since it's in the manual, it obviously IS a know shortcoming of the DVR.

[Seeker47]

If you haven't experienced this, that probably means that you don't get "true" digital widescreen anamorphic content from your cable or sat box? I'm in Europe, maybe there's some difference in how cable or sat providers supply the signals to the consumers. You know when you play a DVD, the DAR flag will make your TV automatically switch to 16:9? Well that happens here with the TV programs too - provided you connected it via RGB.
.

I don't really know, with any certainty. A difference between U.S. and European sat or cable broadcasting (apart from the Pal or Secam vs. NTSC format) could well be true. I do get letterboxed movies at some times on some channels, and that includes a number that were originally in some widescreen format. (But I'm not altogether clear on what constitutes "true digital widescreen anamorphic content".) In any case, this may all be moot, in view of the fact that I have no 16:9 monitors. My best and newest set is 10 years old at this point, and very 4:3.