Upscaling: BS or the real deal?

[Xylob the Destroyer]

I've been shopping around looking for a new progressive scan DVD player that has HDMI and keep seeing players that promise to convert my DVD's to 'near HD' picture quality.
How the hell can they do this?
It reminds me of the dark-age 'wizards' who promised they could turn lead to gold. After all, they're only one electron apart from each other...

Do these "upscaling" or "upconvesion" players really improve the picture?
If so, how?
I don't see how a player can turn a non-HD format into HD or "near HD".

It just sounds like a lot of P.A. to me.

TIA!!

[jagabo]

Do these "upscaling" or "upconvesion" players really improve the picture?

Depends on whether your TV or the player has the better upscaling algorithm and how they're connected.

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=312679

[edDV]

As jagabo says, it depends on the connection and HDTV technology.

Setting aside CRT and DLP and interlace for the moment, let's apply this to LCD and Plasma HDTV sets which are natively progressive. These sets often have resolutions of 1366x768p, 1440x1080p or 1920x1080p.

These HDTV sets can accept progressive 480p DVD over YPrPb analog components and upscale internally to the native progressive resolution of the HDTV set. Normally this looks fine. Progressive to progressive upscale is a fairly simple interpolation.

Next technology is HDMI. 480p HDMI may carry a small resolution advantage over 480p analog component but this would only be a significant factor for large very high resolution TV sets.

Next technology is DVD player upscale. In this case the DVD player upscales the native 720x480p DVD to 1280x720p. Then the HDTV upscales or downscales that to the native display resolution of the HDTV. It isn't clear to me that this two step scaling has any clear advantage over the internal scaler in the HDTV.

Upscale in the DVD player to telecined 1080i seems to me to be an inferior strategy. This means that the HDTV now has to perfrom an inverse telecine to 1920x1080p and then downscale to the native resolution of the display. In other words, the player telecines to 480i and upscales to 1080i. The HDTV must then inverse telecine (or worse blend deinterlace in cheaper sets) and then downscale.

[edDV]

For interlace DVD it depends whether you have good "cinema" deinterlacer in the HDTV (in that case use 480i or 1080i out of the DVD player) or not.

Lower price LCD and plasma HDTV's can benefit from a high quality "cinema" deinterlacer in the DVD player so that interlace DVDs can be converted in the player to progressive 480p or 720p. Then the HDTV only needs to deal with progressive scaling to native display resolution.

Bottom line: Put the money into DVD player video deinterlacer processing first. That is the top priority and will make the greatest difference. Then, if you think upscaling will help with your TV, spend a bit more for upscaling. If you run your DVD player and HD cable/dbs box with progressive outputs, you won't need to change modes on any of the boxes when changing from progressive to interlace sources.

[Xylob the Destroyer]

my HDTV is a CRT...
I have no idea what it's resolution is...
http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-home.pl?mdl=KV36HS420
it supports 480i/p, 720p, & 1080i, but the manual doesn't say anything about the resolution.

[edDV]

my HDTV is a CRT...
I have no idea what it's resolution is...
http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-home.pl?mdl=KV36HS420
it supports 480i/p, 720p, & 1080i, but the manual doesn't say anything about the resolution.

CRT resolution is limited by the dot pitch of the phosphors and the number of holes in the shadow mask.

Most HD CRT's will be between 800x600 and 1280x1080 but most fall under 1024x1080.

A typical HD CRT will either display 480p directly or upconvert to 960-1080 vertical lines. CRT sets have the advantange of progressive or interlace direct display. If you feed 480i or 1080i to a CRT, it will display it as interlace. It will scan 1920x1080i to the back of the shadow mask but you will only see about half that horizontally. Borrow someone's upscaling DVD player and see if you think it makes a difference. I like to play movie DVDs at native 720x480p to my CRT. My progressive Pioneer DVD player does a good inverse telecine from interlace DVD (recorded 480i off cable).

[dLee]

From the product manual:

"DRC™ Digital Reality Creation™ Multi-function analyzes a 480i NTSC image and creates a digital
bit mapped pattern in real time. The original NTSC signal is mapped in real time, replaced with an HD representative, and then discarded. Because DRC™ processes video signals in real time, it creates an image with 4X the density of the original signal. Resolution is increased both vertically and horizontally.

CineMotion™ Reverse 3-2 Pulldown improves the display of video programs originally shot on 24
frames per second film preserving the integrity of the original film frames for more fluid motion and more fine detail. KV-27/32/36HS420"

Sounds like the Sony CRT does the upsampling. My Sony TV's (earlier models) have DRC and give the best picture quality when playing SD DVD's via ATI AIW 9800 Pro's DVI out using VLC. My progressive DVD standalone players (component out only) look good, but the DVI connection gives higher quality.

[edDV]

From the product manual:

"DRC™ Digital Reality Creation™ Multi-function analyzes a 480i NTSC image and creates a digital
bit mapped pattern in real time. The original NTSC signal is mapped in real time, replaced with an HD representative, and then discarded. Because DRC™ processes video signals in real time, it creates an image with 4X the density of the original signal. Resolution is increased both vertically and horizontally.

All CRT HDTV sets will have a complex digital processor to deal with analog broadcast NTSC (or PAL). First they will usually have a 3D digital comb filter to convert composite to YCbCr components, then they will noise reduce and upscale into a frame buffer ~960x960* to 1280x1080. Some pass interlace only, others offer a progressive conversion option (this usually creates serious motion artifacting). The output of this frame buffer goes through a D/A conversion where it is put on the same level to be switched with YPbPr analog component inputs (1080i or 720P). The selected signal will go to the analog CRT scanning circuitry (modulation of an electron beam).

480i YPbPr inputs are usually digitized and sent through this same path (inserted after the comb filter) to get upscaled.

480p YPbPr inputs sometimes are upscaled through the frame buffer but many sets have special handling for 480p to optimize progressive DVD playback. These sets offer a more direct analog path to the scanning circuits where the screen is scanned 720x480 16:9 directly. Since a progressive DVD playback is assumed to be clean, there is no need to send it through the digital processor which will add artifacts to a clean signal. The 1080i and 720p YPbPr inputs are also on this direct analog path to the CRT but are scanned at 1080 interlace (540 at a time) or 720 progressive.

CineMotion™ Reverse 3-2 Pulldown improves the display of video programs originally shot on 24
frames per second film preserving the integrity of the original film frames for more fluid motion and more fine detail. KV-27/32/36HS420"

This is an additional mode of the digital processor that detects cadence and inverse telecines NTSC and 480i inputs. Most CRT sets don't apply this feature to the 1080i path. The higher end CRT models like the top of line Sony WEGA's use a high definition digital processor (similar to those in high end plasma and LCD displays) which can process the 480p, 720p and 1080i paths.

Sounds like the Sony CRT does the upsampling.

It will do the upscaling if you feed it 480i YPbPr (or S-Video) from the DVD player. It may or may not upscale from 480p.

My Sony TV's (earlier models) have DRC and give the best picture quality when playing SD DVD's via ATI AIW 9800 Pro's DVI out using VLC. My progressive DVD standalone players (component out only) look good, but the DVI connection gives higher quality.

480p YPbPr quality from the DVD player will depend on the processing in the DVD player. A cheap progressive DVD player may take shortcuts or have low analog output quality. A premium progressive DVD player will provide high quality 480p to the HDTV display.

When you feed off a computer graphics card (DVI or YPbPr), you have all the ATI and VLC tools and filters to play with. The CRT TV is more or less passing that signal to the screen with little processing.

If you use the graphics card S-Video out, the signal is routed through the TV's digital processor.


* some low end "HD" sets use as little as 768x540 frame buffers to convert all 480i to 540p and only display one field of 1080i.

[dLee]

Thanks for the clarification.

After I posted, I noticed that the first line of the Sony product manual mentions "480i" only.

The difference between the component YPbPr and the DVI-I is slight, but I have to give the edge to the DVI-I because of contrast and image resolution. This is completely unscientific because the signal paths are different and it's only my impression.

I don't think my Pioneer DV-588A-S is cheap, although there are probably better ones out there now, like one of the Oppo's.

For my subjective test, I always look at catchlights in the actors' eyes and close paralell lines moving across the screen. I use Star Wars I. II. and III because of the high bitrate on those DVD's.

I've always wondered what goes on inside those Sony CRT's. I've done some research, but haven't come up with anything definitive.

I use a Sony KV-36XBR800 via the 9800 Pro for my desktop on my capture computer. 1920x1080 results in severe overscan - unuseable. But 1152x648 works fine. I'm not sure what that's telling me about the image processing that's going on in the Sony.

When I use Fullscreen mode in VLC, the media info says 720x480. If that's what SD DVD resolution looks like, then I don't need HD - except for broadcast sports, of course.

[edDV]

Thanks for the clarification.

After I posted, I noticed that the first line of the Sony product manual mentions "480i" only.

The difference between the component YPbPr and the DVI-I is slight, but I have to give the edge to the DVI-I because of contrast and image resolution. This is completely unscientific because the signal paths are different and it's only my impression.

I don't think my Pioneer DV-588A-S is cheap, although there are probably better ones out there now, like one of the Oppo's.

For my subjective test, I always look at catchlights in the actors' eyes and close paralell lines moving across the screen. I use Star Wars I. II. and III because of the high bitrate on those DVD's.

I've always wondered what goes on inside those Sony CRT's. I've done some research, but haven't come up with anything definitive.

I use a Sony KV-36XBR800 via the 9800 Pro for my desktop on my capture computer. 1920x1080 results in severe overscan - unuseable. But 1152x648 works fine. I'm not sure what that's telling me about the image processing that's going on in the Sony.

When I use Fullscreen mode in VLC, the media info says 720x480. If that's what SD DVD resolution looks like, then I don't need HD - except for broadcast sports, of course.

That is a very nice TV for a 2002 design. I'm reading the CNet review here
http://reviews.cnet.com/Sony_WEGA_KV_36XBR800/4505-6481_7-9453440.html

Manufacturers seldom state the true resolution of a CRT TV but that one is probably in the 1280x1024 range. It does have the direct 720x480p scan mode that probaby shows DVD well using that Pioneer player in 480p mode from a progressive movie DVD. 480i from the player would show what the TV processing can do from interlace inputs.

A good test would be to borrow an upscaling DVD player and compare 720p mode (YPbPr and DVI-D) to direct 480p from the same player and from your existing player in 480p mode.

It's hard to tell what Sony is doing with the DVI-D inputs without running test patterns but the "severe overscan" with 1920x1080p probably means Sony is windowing above overscanned 1280x720p as a max resolution. If that is true, you would start to see the picture edges around 1152x648 in a 720p frame.

As for sports, I always prefer 720p at 59.94 fps to 1080i at 29.97 fps. Since I'm on cable, I can get the true 720p ABC and FOX sports broadcast as 25Mb/s MPeg2_TS over IEEE-1394 to the computer's 1280x1024 screen. The difference is striking vs the 1080i cable box feed to my Philips CRT (no 720p capability). I'm sure that would also be true with your Sony in 720p mode.

I've got a Sony widescreen CRT downstairs that is similar to yours but up here I'm sitting very close to the screens.

[dLee]

Thanks for the review. I hadn't seen that one before.

When viewed at extremely close range, an interlaced source from the Pioneer (TV show DVD), I don't see any horizontal lines at all. I do see vertical lines from all sources and inputs which are not noticable from normal viewing distances.

In order to get the best PQ from the Pioneer, you must manually switch between interlaced and progressive mode before you play the DVD. Interlaced source decoded progressively = looks bad. Progressive source decoded (converted?) interlaced looks pretty good.

I'm assuming (haven't done the research) that when using VLC and the ATI card, VLC utilizes the desktop screen resolution which means the ATI card is doing the upscaling and the Sony is displaying pretty much what it's been given with minimal processing.

On the Sony and it's 30" 16:9 CRT cousin upstairs (KV-30HS510), the DVI connectors are definitely DVI-D. The RGB pins are not supported.

I've been meaning to put together a test pattern DVD. I'm sure I can add some patterns that will show me what that display is doing. Can't see the desktop in 1080, so I can't know for sure, but it seems like 40%-50% of the desktop is off screen.

Can't get cable here in the boonies, so no HD yet. Maybe after my office remodel is finished, I'll move my Dish SD box into it and get an HD PVR box for the living area.