Upscaling SD content on PC...?

[snadge]

is there any software that can upscale your SD content to HD that can do a half decent job of it
- I imagine that computer software that can take its time upscaling will do a MUCH BETTER job than TV/DVD upscalers that do it on the fly

thanks

[Supreme2k]

You cannot create HD from a SD source.

Actually, the upscalers on standalones can do a much better job. Still not changing it to HD, though.

[snadge]

I know you cant create a true HD source from SD - I just thought that c omputer with ample processing power and time would be able to do a better job than TV or DVD upscaler that have to do it on the fly (and therefore limited)

so i thought I may be able to get a better end result if it were upscaled on PC first

[jagabo]

I have no direct experience with it, but:
http://www.thedeemon.com/articles/video_upsize_methods_comparison.html

[Gavino]

Avisynth has a wide range of resize filters built-in.
There are also Avisynth plugins such as the recently enhanced NNEDI2.

[lordsmurf]

I know you cant create a true HD source from SD - I just thought that c omputer with ample processing power and time would be able to do a better job than TV or DVD upscaler that have to do it on the fly (and therefore limited)
so i thought I may be able to get a better end result if it were upscaled on PC first

No. You thought wrong.
The hardware in the TV or DVD player is going to be superior to software methods.

It's okay, not everybody knows this. 8)

[jagabo]

The hardware in the TV or DVD player is going to be superior to software methods.

I disagree. There is nothing that is done in digital hardware that isn't done first in software. There are no hardware super resolution upscalers in any consumer grade equipment as far as I know.

The real issues is that whatever you do in software now will be superceded by software and hardware in the future. So it's a waste of time. And if you don't save your sources the damage you do now will be with you forever into the future.

[Soopafresh]

Either Hardware or Software, for consumer level devices the end result isn't going to be very impressive. I did see a video from a guy who taped his movie in DV and then paid a company $40K to upres it to HD. Looked great. It better for $40,000

[snadge]

thanks for advice and links guys....

I too thought that in this DIGITAL age everything is done by software IN the hardware... so therefore saying Hardware upscalers are going to be better than software upscalers is a bit of a iffy statement - hardware is RUN by software.... the hardware in DVD/TV certainly isnt suprerior to a PC and all the video software available for it

...think about it

[jagabo]

I too thought that in this DIGITAL age everything is done by software IN the hardware...

No, dedicate hardware actually implements algorithms in silicon. The hardware can be highly optimized because it is designed for a specific purpose, not as a general purpose CPU. You always prototype the algorithms in software first because it's much more expensive and time consuming designing hardware.

One could argue that the DVD player and HDTV manufacturers have developed superior proprietary algorithms for upscaling, and that nobody else has thought of the same or similar techniques. But I've seen no evidence of this.

[snadge]

I too thought that in this DIGITAL age everything is done by software IN the hardware...

No, dedicate hardware actually implements algorithms in silicon. The hardware can be highly optimized because it is designed for a specific purpose, not as a general purpose CPU. You always prototype the algorithms in software first because it's much more expensive and time consuming designing hardware.

One could argue that the DVD player and HDTV manufacturers have developed superior proprietary algorithms for upscaling, and that nobody else has thought of the same or similar techniques. But I've seen no evidence of this.

if the algorythms are fixed into silicone (built into a ROM chip?) then how come you can upgrade the firmware for these chips? firmware=software isnt it?

[greymalkin]

I don't think you'll be writing data to a Read Only Memory chip

You are speaking of a small subsystem of a hardware unit on SOME peices of hardware. The more you let software take over, the more "generic" the hardware has to become, and therefore the slower/potentially less reliable it becomes.

you don't flash firmware on your light switches.

[jagabo]

if the algorythms are fixed into silicone (built into a ROM chip?) then how come you can upgrade the firmware for these chips? firmware=software isnt it?

Devices like DVD players have general purpose CPUs and special purpose silicon. The firmware you are updating is for the general purpose CPU. Also, the special purpose silicon is usually used in many different devices and will have many options for how it does what it does (selected by the CPU at runtime). Updating the firmware might change the way that dedicated hardware is used.

[snadge]

if the algorythms are fixed into silicone (built into a ROM chip?) then how come you can upgrade the firmware for these chips? firmware=software isnt it?

Devices like DVD players have general purpose CPUs and special purpose silicon. The firmware you are updating is for the general purpose CPU. Also, the special purpose silicon is usually used in many different devices and will have many options for how it does what it does (selected by the CPU at runtime). Updating the firmware might change the way that dedicated hardware is used.

thanks Jagabo - that made it very clear... so firmware could be for the 'chip' that runs the whole system of 'dedicated' chips (that do the upscaling and cant be changed in anyway) - something along those lines

[snadge]

I don't think you'll be writing data to a Read Only Memory chip

You are speaking of a small subsystem of a hardware unit on SOME peices of hardware. The more you let software take over, the more "generic" the hardware has to become, and therefore the slower/potentially less reliable it becomes.

you don't flash firmware on your light switches.

oops my bad...

since when did a simple I/O switch on a light socket have any type of firmware..?
its just a basic physical switch that doesnt require any sort of 'chip' or 'firmware'...?

[jagabo]

since when did a simple I/O switch on a light socket have any type of firmware..? :lol:
its just a basic physical switch that doesnt require any sort of 'chip' or 'firmware'...?

It's dedicated hardware acceleration.

[edDV]

Your upscaling goals aren't quite clear but I can think of at least three more issues.

1. Hardware upscale is realtime, equivalent software execution could take hours to days.

2. High end HDTV and progressive DVD players may be using patented technology that isn't available to the general public as software.

3. Picture quality depends in large part on minimizing sequential rescales. Most HDTV sets will rescale again for overscan or to scale to flat panel native resolution so it can be argued that SD should be kept SD so the individual display (or computer display card) can rescale once. One might say their TV scaler is crap, therefore they need to pre-process all input files to optimize for that particular TV. So what happens when you replace the TV?

Further, most SD video is interlace so inverse telecine or deinterlace become the critical technologies. If one inverse telecines to 23.976, most TV sets can't deal with it as SD or upscaled HD input. For PAL, 23.976 or 24p won't be accepted. One would need to frame repeat or speed up playback to the needs of each TV. Better to let the TV or progressive DVD player do the inverse telecine processing.

As for interlace, some displays want progressive others want interlace. Most TV sets won't accept 1080p/23.976. Even more won't accept 1080p/60 or 1080p/50. Again it is more convenient to let the TV do it. The better the TV processor, the better the deinterlace.

One argument for non-realtime software deinterlace is you can construct multiple frames of history and future frames to optimize motion detection. Hardware deinterlacers have a limited number of realtime frame buffers limited by cost. The counter-argument is current processors would take hours to days to process multiple frames of history and/or future frame data for each pixel block.

[snadge]

Your upscaling goals aren't quite clear but I can think of at least three more issues.

1. Hardware upscale is realtime, equivalent software execution could take hours to days.

2. High end HDTV and progressive DVD players may be using patented technology that isn't available to the general public as software.

3. Picture quality depends in large part on minimizing sequential rescales. Most HDTV sets will rescale again for overscan or to scale to flat panel native resolution so it can be argued that SD should be kept SD so the individual display (or computer display card) can rescale once. One might say their TV scaler is crap, therefore they need to pre-process all input files to optimize for that particular TV. So what happens when you replace the TV?

Further, most SD video is interlace so inverse telecine or deinterlace become the critical technologies. If one inverse telecines to 23.976, most TV sets can't deal with it as SD or upscaled HD. For PAL, 23.976 or 24p won't be accepted. One would need to frame repeat or speed up playback to the needs of each TV. Better to let the TV or progressive DVD player do the inverse telecine processing.

As for interlace, some displays want progressive others want interlace. Most TV sets won't accept 1080p/23.976. Even more won't accept 1080p/60 or 1080p/50. Again it is more convenient to let the TV do it. The better the TV processor, the better the deinterlace.

One argument for non-realtime software deinterlace is you can construct multiple frames of history and future frames to optimize motion detection. Hardware deinterlacers have a limited number of realtime frame buffers limited by cost. The counter-argument is current processors would take hours to days to process multiple frames of history and/or future frame data for each block.

I have a cheapo LG 32" and upscaler isnt too bad but not best ive seen - as its real-time i thought it would be limited to the amount of processing it can do - therefore a computer that spends hours or days doing it with all the software you have available that the end result would be better - in my case my TV has 'just-scan' to disable overscan and has HD DivX 7 codec installed and plays all sorts of resolutions and formats including 1080p/23.976 in MKV files and 1080p/60/50/24 - with JUST SCAN enabled this removes any overscan re-sampling done by the processor... the TV will indeed inverse-telecine - if the files i play are indeed interlaced - most the files I play are AVI / MKV HD Files (1080p) and some SD AVI files... it was these SD AVI files I was going to try upscaling myself - just as an experiment to see if I could get a better result...

like your last point - these software upscalers can use multiple frames (history) to determine the output

that VIDEO ENHANCER looks like a good program - it does make a difference , but as you already stated you need a dedicated powerfull CPU (preferably 4 cores @ 3Ghz) to process it in any decent time-frame, I have only 1.6Ghz x 2 Turion and to upscale a 640x288 AVI to 1280 x 580 (720p) AVI was gunna take about 9hours on the FAST setting or 12 hours on the QUALITY setting- I may let it run one day to see if the complete end result is worth all the processing

@ jagabo - so if i remove my light switch off the wall it will have some form of firmware chip...? its a simple ON/OFF switch - surely it doesnt require any 'chip' ..? its a simple AC/DC current being allowed or denied by the flick of a switch

[edDV]

Looking to the future, CPUs will get more powerful but also realtime frame buffers will get cheaper allowing more frames of memory in TV sets. Deinterlace and upscale technology will improve so I still say archive SD interlace as SD interlace.

[usually_quiet]

The hardware in the TV or DVD player is going to be superior to software methods.

I disagree. There is nothing that is done in digital hardware that isn't done first in software. There are no hardware super resolution upscalers in any consumer grade equipment as far as I know.

The real issues is that whatever you do in software now will be superceded by software and hardware in the future. So it's a waste of time. And if you don't save your sources the damage you do now will be with you forever into the future.

I was looking at TV cards a few minutes ago and saw this device at http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815122013 then remembered this thread. I guess consumer grade hardware devices for converting SD to HD and HD to SD are starting to appear. I'm in no position to judge whther it is any good or not, but just for fun, I thought I'd post the link.

[themaster1]

is there any software that can upscale your SD content to HD that can do a half decent job of it
- I imagine that computer software that can take its time upscaling will do a MUCH BETTER job than TV/DVD upscalers that do it on the fly

thanks

The solution is here and let's not forget here
Ideally you would use the two at the same time, that's what i do.

Tested & Approved

[edDV]

The oracle but limited real world experience.