Capturing w/o AIW?

[123fish123]

OK I am back. I run XP home and was not certain about the capabilities of XP media center addition. If I have XP Media Center addition and a stock TV tuner from say dell, will I be able to CAPTURE video via firewire into MPG2 format or do I need something like an ATI AIW graphics card to do so? I have an AIW now but was thinking maybe you don't need them anymore. I just can't seem to tell. Dells come with a stock tuner and a Radeon Pro card but not an AIW card. I don't know if I need the AIW or not. As long as I can capture from my firewire I am happy.

[edDV]

Check the Microsoft site (XP Movie Center Version) for a list of sopported tuner cards. Most AIW cards are supported but probably not for hardware assisted encoding which is what you should have for Media Center.

Any HTPC model really depends on hardware encoding.

[123fish123]

Maybe I am asking my question wrong. I can't seem to ask this one right to get an answer.

If I buy a PC that has a Radeon graphics card (not AIW) and a separate TV tuner card, will I be able to capture video from the TV Tuner card via something like Nero for instance? In other words, does the AIW buy me anything other than combining the two cards into one?

[edDV]

Do you have XP media center or not?

Display card is irrelevant for capture. If you get a capture card that is supported by Nero, then Nero will capture from it. As for success at MPeg encoding, that will depend on the beef of your CPU. > 2GHz P4 is reasonable if quality can be dialed down. >3Ghz P4 is more like it.

Hardware encoding cards will work even for a PIII.

Are we getting closer?

[Nelson37]

ATI AIW cards use Hardware-Assisted encoding, so the answer is YES, depending on the Tuner card.

As near as I could understand what the ATI tech was saying, there are "memory register buffers" on the card that assist in MPG encoding.

Firewire capture is a completely seperate issue having nothing whatsoever to do with a TV tuner card or AIW in general.

I have only worked with 3 or 4 Windows Media Center PCs, but the experience has been Extremely Negative, in no way whatsoever would I pay extra for this software. I have in fact been paid to remove it. Many better alternatives available.

[123fish123]

Do you have XP media center or not?

Display card is irrelevant for capture. If you get a capture card that is supported by Nero, then Nero will capture from it. As for success at MPeg encoding, that will depend on the beef of your CPU. > 2GHz P4 is reasonable if quality can be dialed down. >3Ghz P4 is more like it.

Hardware encoding cards will work even for a PIII.

Are we getting closer?

I have a p4 1.6 and AIW now so now is not the issue.

I am thinking of getting a new PC (Pentium Core 2 Duo chip) but they don't offer an AIW with it. I am trying to figure out if the Dell Generic TV Tuner card and built in firewire on the board will still allow me to capture video from my cam-corder the way my AIW does today.

If I am understanding correctly, it sounds like it will but if I got a better card (like a nice AIW) it would do it faster because it would offload some of the processing from the CPU to the card? Is that it?

[edDV]

Do you have XP media center or not?

Display card is irrelevant for capture. If you get a capture card that is supported by Nero, then Nero will capture from it. As for success at MPeg encoding, that will depend on the beef of your CPU. > 2GHz P4 is reasonable if quality can be dialed down. >3Ghz P4 is more like it.

Hardware encoding cards will work even for a PIII.

Are we getting closer?

I have a p4 1.6 and AIW now so now is not the issue.

I am thinking of getting a new PC (Pentium Core 2 Duo chip) but they don't offer an AIW with it. I am trying to figure out if the Dell Generic TV Tuner card and built in firewire on the board will still allow me to capture video from my cam-corder the way my AIW does today.

If I am understanding correctly, it sounds like it will but if I got a better card (like a nice AIW) it would do it faster because it would offload some of the processing from the CPU to the card? Is that it?

First the AIW will use hardware if using ATI MMC software but usually not when used with third party programs. If you are using MMC on your old machine, a P4 1.6 should be fast enough.

Second, firewire is used with DV or Digital8 format camcorders. Is your camcorder DV or Digital8 format? Firewire transfer from a DV or Digital8 camcorder should be no problem with your old P4 or with the new Core 2 Duo.

Third, a Core 2 duo may or may not be fast enough to software MPeg2 encode depending on the speed of the chip and whether the encoding software can use both cores. The lower end core2 duo E6300 may struggle if running on only one core. Read reviews for the software you intend to use or ask the manufacturer.

ATI does make a AIW for PCIe if you want to stay with that.
http://shop.ati.com/product.asp?sku=2832706
http://shop.ati.com/product.asp?sku=2804209
or you can wait for the new PCIe Theater 650 tuner/capture card

[123fish123]

So all things being equal am I better of with the stock tuner on a new PC Pentium Core2 duo or will something like an ATi AIW card help me with capturing (speed and CPU use wise)? Just trying to figure out what if anything it helps with (assume AIW PCI express X1900 or so)

[edDV]

So all things being equal am I better of with the stock tuner on a new PC Pentium Core2 duo or will something like an ATi AIW card help me with capturing (speed and CPU use wise)? Just trying to figure out what if anything it helps with (assume AIW PCI express X1900 or so)

You can do it either way. Depends on your needs and the software you want to use. You can stay with the AIW solution for SD tuner, and add their ATI HD Wonder tuner all under MMC or you can go with other providers for tuners.

I'm partital to capture cards or devices with hardware encoding to keep the load off the CPU. A no brainer SD tuner would be the Hauppauge PVR-USB2 working with 3rd party PVR software like SageTV or GBPVR or BeyondTV or MCE.

[FulciLives]

Just get the Hauppauge WinTV PVR USB2

This USB 2.0 external box will convert any analog video and audio signal into MPEG-2 using hardware. That is what you want!

There is a "regular" version for WinXP as well as a "special" version for WinXP MCE so either way you are covered.

Another option is the Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250 which is the same thing but is an internal PCI version instead of an external USB 2.0 version. Again there is a regular non MCE version as well as a MCE version.

If you want to do FIREWIRE capture with a digital camcorder then all you need is FIREWIRE (aka IEEE 1394 aka i.link aka DV In) on the computer. As long as you have that then you can "capture" from a digital camcorder. I say "capture" because the data is stored on the tape in the camcorder as digital data so it is more of a transfer than a capture. The capture card you use has nothing to do with being able to use FIREWIRE to "capture" from a digital camcorder.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[123fish123]

Just get the Hauppauge WinTV PVR USB2

This USB 2.0 external box will convert any analog video and audio signal into MPEG-2 using hardware. That is what you want!

There is a "regular" version for WinXP as well as a "special" version for WinXP MCE so either way you are covered.

Another option is the Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250 which is the same thing but is an internal PCI version instead of an external USB 2.0 version. Again there is a regular non MCE version as well as a MCE version.

If you want to do FIREWIRE capture with a digital camcorder then all you need is FIREWIRE (aka IEEE 1394 aka i.link aka DV In) on the computer. As long as you have that then you can "capture" from a digital camcorder. I say "capture" because the data is stored on the tape in the camcorder as digital data so it is more of a transfer than a capture. The capture card you use has nothing to do with being able to use FIREWIRE to "capture" from a digital camcorder.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

So then what the heck is the benefit of something like an ATI AIW card? Since I can use the digital camcorder as a passthrough and hook my VCR up to it and capture to the PC via firewire, why would I ever need something like an AIW card? Sounds like, I wouldn't. But I still feel like it must have some benefits. Does it help in the conversion process while it's capturing (i.e. converting it to MPG2)?

[FulciLives]

In short it boils down to format of choice and the way you intend to use it.

For instance not everyone wants to capture to DV AVI format. Some people don't like the 4:1:1 color sampling of NTSC DV AVI and try to avoid when possible.

Some people prefer to capture direct to MPEG-2 DVD format for a variety of reasons including for instance the fact that you go straight from analog to digital in one step.

Some people prefer to capture to a high quality AVI format such as the HuffyUV codec which usses compression but it is considered lossless compression and there are no 4:1:1 issues. Benefit here is that you can do a software MPEG-2 DVD conversion which allows a lot of "control" over the process, including using software filters to clean up the video.

The negatives of using a digital camcorder with pass-thru would be:

1.) The NTSC 4:1:1 color sampling that some ... stress some ... feel ruins the video.
2.) All NTSC sources (except for Japanese NTSC) use 7.5 IRE Black but with the digital camcorder pass-thru method the camera uses 0.0 IRE Black which can result in a picture that in short doesn't look so hot unless you "fix it".
3.) No timer option. Some people like to record from TV when not home.
4.) Have to use software MPEG-2 DVD encoder after you capture resulting in a multi-step process that can take a very long time.
5.) Copy Protection issues are possible.

People you like the ATI AIW like them because:

1.) Very good quality of capture
2.) Can capture uncompressed AVI including using something like HuffyUV
3.) Can also do fairly decent MPEG-2 DVD encoding as it is at least done partially by hardware.
4.) Software that allows you to program for unattended TV show recordings.

Of course the ATI AIW cards have negatives as well but my point is ... this isn't as "clear cut" as you might think it is.

Having said that the Hauppauge stuff I mentioned before are a great value and a very good all around capture solution for analog video.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[123fish123]

But you mention capturing with the pass-thru feature of the camcorder will not allow me to go direct to MPG2. I do this today using Nero capture software and pass-thru as my source. So unless I mis-understood your "cons" list, this should not be one of them.

[jman98]

The original poster might be interested in
http://hdjunkie.com/tutorials.html
which tells how to use CapDVHS to capture from a cable box firewire port. I've been told that this works for standard definition captures as well as high def, but I've only used it for high def captures. It MIGHT work with the Dell tuner, but I don't know. I suggest you take a look and see if it's more what you are after than another capture card.

I prefer Hauppauge (I have the PVR-350) to ATI for analog captures. I'm not a big fan of ATI cards. ATI cards have a ton of fanboys who won't consider anything else and I think they tend to overrate the values of ATI cards, but that's just my opinion. Yours may vary.

[123fish123]

The original poster might be interested in
http://hdjunkie.com/tutorials.html
which tells how to use CapDVHS to capture from a cable box firewire port. I've been told that this works for standard definition captures as well as high def, but I've only used it for high def captures. It MIGHT work with the Dell tuner, but I don't know. I suggest you take a look and see if it's more what you are after than another capture card.

I prefer Hauppauge (I have the PVR-350) to ATI for analog captures. I'm not a big fan of ATI cards. ATI cards have a ton of fanboys who won't consider anything else and I think they tend to overrate the values of ATI cards, but that's just my opinion. Yours may vary.

Thanks for the link.

Yeah...at the end of the day I just want to be able to capture from analog to MPG in the fastest and easiest way possible. My two options seem to be pass-thru via my camcorder/firewire capturing with NERO or some ATI AIW via their software suite of products (or NERO). I am leaning towards the first since I don't have to shell out for the AIW card and have not been able to see any real benefit anyway based on my need.

[Nelson37]

I thought I answered this but will try again.

If all your captures will be through Firewire, you do not need either an AIW or a tuner card of any kind. All you need is a firewire port.

There is a difference between software-only real-time MPG encoding, hardware-only real-time MPG encoding, and the AIW hardware-assisted real-time MPG encoding. If you are satisfied with your current method then there is no need to change, just stick with Firewire.

I would suggest that if you have not made direct comparisons with the other methods, you may not know what you could be missing.

[FulciLives]

If you capture through FIREWIRE direct-to-MPEG2 this is a software MPEG-2 encode.

Generally speaking a software MPEG-2 encode is not as good as a hardware MPEG-2 encode.

The Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250 (PCI) and WinTV PVR USB2 (USB 2.0) are hardware MPEG-2 encoding/capture units.

A software MPEG-2 encode is NOT recommended especially when done via FIREWIRE.

Why?

Well there is the DV AVI 4:1:1 issue. Technically the FIREWIRE approach using a digital camcorder in analog-to-digital passthrough mode is compressing the analog source to DV AVI which gets sent to the computer then the computer has to take that and do a realtime software MPEG-2 encode.

So yes you still have the DV AVI 4:1:1 issue with a NTSC source. You also have the imbalance of IRE where the device is set to 0.0 IRE Black but the source is 7.5 IRE Black. Also as I mentioned a software MPEG-2 encode is inferior to a hardware MPEG-2 encode.

If you want to capture direct to MPEG-2 then again I suggest the Hauppauge cards/devices I have mentioned or just get a stand alone DVD recorder (and get one with a HDD built-in as it makes your life oh so much easier than a unit without a built-in HDD).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
Some of the issues here ... the DV AVI 4:1:1 issue and the imbalance with the IRE Black level issue ... this assums you are capturing standard NTSC ala in the USA and/or Canada.

[jagabo]

Generally speaking a software MPEG-2 encode is not as good as a hardware MPEG-2 encode.

I would modify that statement a bit: Generally speaking a real-time software MPEG-2 encode is not as good as a real-time hardware MPEG-2 encode.

When compressing to MPEG2 in real-time (ie, as it's being captured) a software MPEG2 encoder has a limited amount of time to compress each frame. This means the encoder will take shortcuts, generally, less motion search. Realtime encoders also have the disadvantage of unpredictable file size unless you use CBR encoding.

Capturing a high quality source to YUY2 video (about as close as you can get to an analog broacast) with a lossless codec like HuffYUV, then converting using a 2-pass VBR encoding, will give the best results if you want to put more than an hour on a DVD.

Another advantage of using a hardware MPEG2 encoder, like the Hauppauge WinTV PVR series, is that you can continue to use the computer for other things while capturing. You can convert video in the background, browse the internet, do your email, even play games without fear of dropping frames.

Why are you looking at the AIW 1900? Are you planning on playing 3D games on this computer also? The AIW 1300 has the same video section and the card costs far less (although both ATI and nVideo both talk about using the graphics chips for other processing, like h.264 encoding, in the future).

[lordsmurf]

If you have a DV video camera for pass-through, there's your AVI captures. Still compressed, but it can work okay.

If you get a Hauppauge PVR-250 MPEG hardware card, there's your MPEG encoding. (Although I must say the myth of "it's hardware, so you can still use the computer" is not good advice. The card/software DOES USE the CPU, and it CAN ADVERSELY AFFECT the video quality if you try to use a computer while it captures, pure hardware encoding or not.)

You won't need the ATI AIW card.

But I would still suggest you try for one, if you can. It is a really good system, ESPECIALLY if you want a PVR setup.

[FulciLives]

Generally speaking a software MPEG-2 encode is not as good as a hardware MPEG-2 encode.

I would modify that statement a bit: Generally speaking a real-time software MPEG-2 encode is not as good as a real-time hardware MPEG-2 encode.

Well that is of course what I meant but thank you for making that more clear for those that perhaps needed the more in-depth version you so expertly detailed. And no I'm not trying to be a smart ass but sincere. Your comments are always much appreciated.

However I will say that the number one issue I had when using a TV Tuner type capture card and capturing to AVI (I used PICVideo due to the slow computer I had at the time but agree HuffyUV is better) was the big 'ol bastard of A/V sync.

I finally got it sorted out for the most part but when I upgraded to a much faster more capable computer ... using the same card and software ... the A/V sync issue was back and I never was able to get rid of it. At least not with that card (a BT based card) using HuffyUV AVI.

The next best thing would be either a DV AVI capture (using something like the Canopus ADVC-110) or a 15,000kbps CBR MPEG-2 capture using a hardware based capture card like the Hauppauge cards/devices.

In fact I tested a ADS Tech Instant DVD 2.0 (an external USB 2.0 hardware MPEG capture/encoding device) and I got very good results when I did a 15,000 CBR MPEG-2 capture and then used that as a "master" i.e., as one would if you did a HuffyUV capture. Meaning I would demux and use AviSynth and CCE to do a proper MPEG-2 DVD spec multi-pass VBR software encode.

The plus with the ADS unit (and this should apply to the Hauppauge as well) was that I never had any A/V sync issues.

I should point out that I always ran these captures through VideoReDo using the QuickStream Fix option before I would demux and process further. In fact that seems to be an almost must with any MPEG-2 capture done on a computer. At least if you want to ensure A/V sync.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[jagabo]

I can't speak for other hardware capture devices but I have a Hauppauge WinTV PVR-250 and never have any problems using the computer while capturing. Neither the capture nor the other programs have any issues.

With WinTV2000 (Hauppauge's main tuner/capture program) running in the background and its display disabled (you don't see the video) CPU usage is in the 1 to 2 percent range (Core 2 Duo E6300). With the display enabled the CPU usage depends to some extent on the graphics card and CPU (which is decoding the incoming MPEG stream), but on my old 2x AGP card it's runing around 15 percent.

I do avoid the most strenuous tasks. I don't defrag drives while capturing, I avoid some "large" programs that would cause disk cache or VM thrashing, etc. I suppose if I was recording a once-in-a-lifetime event I would avoid using the computer while capturing, but anything short of that and I wouldn't give it a second thought. You will find a lot of other PVR-250 owners around here that say the same thing.

I suspect the Hauppauge PVR USB2 would be a little more susceptible to problems because USB I/O is a little more taxing than PCI DMA.

In any case, hardware MPEG 2 capture devices are far less susceptible to dropped frames and A/V sync problems than uncompressed video capture with software encoding, or hardware assisted encoding like with the AIW.

[123fish123]

Wow thanks! Very much more clear now. Software versus hardware encoding. Yes yes yes...very clear. Thank you so much.

Now the ATI AIW does have an input for my VCR (actually a converter unit that plugs the RCA jacks into the card for capture). Then I can save, via the hardware, to mpg2.

Does the Hauppauge have some type of similar interface for a VCR-out via RCA jacks? I know it obviously will have a co-ax which will allow me to hook in live cable TV, but my concern is being able to hook up a VCR to it via RCA cables. Will it do this?

[jagabo]

The Hauppauge PVR series has composite and s-video inputs for video, and line level inputs (mini pin-plug or RCA depending on the model) for audio. They also have a coax input for an antenna or analog cable TV. Some models have outputs as well (PVR-350 for example).

The PVR-250 is no longer in production and is hard to find. The PVR-150 is the replacement but many people had problems (too loud, distorted audio, overbright video ) with it for quite a while. These appear to have been fixed with recent driver updates.

[FulciLives]

The Hauppauge PVR series has composite and s-video inputs for video, and line level inputs (mini pin-plug or RCA depending on the model) for audio. They also have a coax input for an antenna or analog cable TV. Some models have outputs as well (PVR-350 for example).

The PVR-250 is no longer in production and is hard to find. The PVR-150 is the replacement but many people had problems (too loud, distorted audio, overbright video ) with it for quite a while. These appear to have been fixed with recent driver updates.

The Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250 can still be bought on-line in a non-MCE (with a mini audio plug) and in a MCE compliant model (with stereo RCA jacks for audio input). You pretty much have to buy it mail order these days and only the NTSC version appears to still be available.

The WinTV PVR-350 is still availabe in both NTSC and PAL models as I understand it. However there is no MCE version yet I do believe the normal version will work with MCE (knock on wood).

The WinTV PVR-150 and WinTV PVR-500 are to be avoided. They are utter garbage. Recent drivers have improved things but there are still issues.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[123fish123]

Thanks to all. Well I'll research the Haup. and ATI cards and get something in the future. Sounds like there are advantages to hardware capture that I'd like to take advantage of with one of these. I'll probably wind up sticking with ATI simply because that's what I have now (original AIW) and have had no issues and love the card. Basically however, because of driver trouble due to the age of the card and my PC, I have resorted to capturing my VHS tapes through firewire which started my questions since I don't recall a big difference in quality from when I was using my ATI to capture versus what I am doing now (camcorder pass-through). The only difference I do notice I suppose is that my PC seems to be chugging a lot harder (probably because of the software conversion and running NERO instead of ATI MMC which seems to take a lot of CPU!)

[jagabo]

Note the ATI AIW cards are not fully hardware encoding. They do use less CPU resources than cards that compress fully with software.

[FulciLives]

ATI AIW are not full hardware MPEG encoder/capture cards. It is partly software and partly hardware and I think (not sure) that to get the hardware assist that you have to use the ATI MMC software.

The Hauppauge WinTV PVR units (internal PCI or external USB 2.0) are full hardware MPEG encoder/capture solutions.

A note about the Hauppauge USB models. There is a WinTV PVR USB2 which is full hardware MPEG and comes in a non-MCE and MCE version. However there is another called the WinTV USB2 which is to be avoided as it does not do full hardware but instead is full software MPEG.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[123fish123]

ATI AIW are not full hardware MPEG encoder/capture cards. It is partly software and partly hardware and I think (not sure) that to get the hardware assist that you have to use the ATI MMC software.

The Hauppauge WinTV PVR units (internal PCI or external USB 2.0) are full hardware MPEG encoder/capture solutions.

A note about the Hauppauge USB models. There is a WinTV PVR USB2 which is full hardware MPEG and comes in a non-MCE and MCE version. However there is another called the WinTV USB2 which is to be avoided as it does not do full hardware but instead is full software MPEG.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

WOW So it sounds like Hauppauge is the way to go since it's fully the card that does the work and ATI cards offload some to the CPU huh? Interesting. Well I appreciate all the feedback and insight!!! I also noticed the Hauppauge is only PCI whereas ATI offers PCIe cards. Any reason for this? I assumed PCIe would be better.

[jagabo]

it sounds like Hauppauge is the way to go since it's fully the card that does the work and ATI cards offload some to the CPU huh?

If you're looking at realtime MPEG capture, yes. There are other hardware MPEG2 capture cards (ATI Theater 550 Pro for example) but they have less of a track record.

I also noticed the Hauppauge is only PCI whereas ATI offers PCIe cards. Any reason for this? I assumed PCIe would be better.

It doesn't matter unless you don't have any PCI slots. We're talking about MPEG data at around 2 MByte/sec whereas PCI bandwidth is ~120 MByte/sec. EVen USB2 with it's paltry ~20 MByte/sec (real world throughput) is acceptable.

[FulciLives]

Also remember the ATI AIW is a video card for the computer's graphics as well as being a video capture card.

The Hauppauge cards are just capture cards. You still need a regular video card for the computer's graphics.

The point being ... ATI AIW PCIe cards exist for the benefit of the computer's graphics and not for the capture aspects of the card.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman