Broadcast Signal is protected?

[saggitarius]

I have a AIW 9800 and I have been recently getting the message when I am trying to record a TV show that the broadcast signal is being protected and can only be viewed.

Why is this happening now? I haven't tried recording any TV shows for a while with MMC and I sure don't remember seeing this message come up before. Is anyone aware of how to stop it from coming up or am I going to have to revert to copying shows via VHS again?

[Bodyslide]

Which Version of the MMC are you using?

[edDV]

I've had this happen only on the local analog PBS station to MMC for certain programs. I posted this experience here but nobody else had seen it happen. Fortunately I have other ways to record than MMC but it is frustrating for scheduled recordings.

It has to be an analog flag in the vertical interval coding. Most capture programs ignor vertical interval data but MMC monitors closed captioning.

[saggitarius]

I am using MMC 9.03, CCC 1.2.2314.20337 and NET framework 1.1.4322.2032 according to the about tab on my ATI systray icon.

EdDV, when you say you have another method rather than MMC to record, what is it you are using? I have VirtualDub, but it only work if I use Windows WDM capture and even then it won't allow me to change the channels to the one I want to record.

[edDV]

I am using MMC 9.03, CCC 1.2.2314.20337 and NET framework 1.1.4322.2032 according to the about tab on my ATI systray icon.

EdDV, when you say you have another method rather than MMC to record, what is it you are using? I have VirtualDub, but it only work if I use Windows WDM capture and even then it won't allow me to change the channels to the one I want to record.

I meant other than MMC using the AIW card or using other capture devices. MMC is the only software that will allow real time MPeg hardware encode with the AIW. The others only capture uncompressed (e.g. BeyondTV, GBPVR, Snapstream, etc.) or I can manually capture with Virtualdub, ULead Video Studio, Premiere or Vegas.

[VegasBud]

Since saggitarius did ask:

Is anyone aware of how to stop it from coming up..

and nobody has mentioned it, there's a good chance a tbc put in before the capture card would strip the copy protect signal. Unfortunately, I haven't encountered a copy protect problem I can test the theory on, but for another thread I did verify that a tbc removes closed captioning, which is supposed to be in the same area of the VBI.

If someone has a tbc, and is encountering this problem, it would be nice to know for sure if it works or not.

[edDV]

Since saggitarius did ask:

Is anyone aware of how to stop it from coming up..

and nobody has mentioned it, there's a good chance a tbc put in before the capture card would strip the copy protect signal. Unfortunately, I haven't encountered a copy protect problem I can test the theory on, but for another thread I did verify that a tbc removes closed captioning, which is supposed to be in the same area of the VBI.

If someone has a tbc, and is encountering this problem, it would be nice to know for sure if it works or not.

The problem is rare and seems to be related to the vertial interval (VBI) data (aka VITS, VITC, closed captioning). Some TBC's will strip affected lines (18-21 for NTSC).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_interval
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_captioning

I doubt there is some blocking conspiracy here. It is an error in ATI software.
Did I say error in ATI software?

[vhelp]

saggitarius,

- since you seem to be the one with this problem, can you test this out with
your setup, soon as you can, please ??

eddv seems to believe that it is CC (closed caption) related. If this is
true, then (theory) all that has to be done is turn off CC. I think that
a simple turning off in the MMC is not enought. Either remove CC during
install (elect to not install it - if possible) or, I think there is a
place (if memory recalls) in the MMC setup idalog box where it gives the
options to setup CC recording. I think it is a multi-step, but I could be
wrong -- its been a while since I used mine, MMC v7.1 w/ my Rage Fury Pro
card.

-vhelp 4073

[edDV]

saggitarius,

- since you seem to be the one with this problem, can you test this out with
your setup, soon as you can, please ??

eddv seems to believe that it is CC (closed caption) related. If this is
true, then (theory) all that has to be done is turn off CC. I think that
a simple turning off in the MMC is not enought. Either remove CC during
install (elect to not install it - if possible) or, I think there is a
place (if memory recalls) in the MMC setup idalog box where it gives the
options to setup CC recording. I think it is a multi-step, but I could be
wrong -- its been a while since I used mine, MMC v7.1 w/ my Rage Fury Pro
card.

-vhelp 4073

It isn't cc per se but the fact that MMC detects the analog vertical data and is making a wrong decision, or the tech at the TV station set the CC or V-Chip codes wrong, etc. to trigger the "video can only be viewed" and not recorded message. This is a glitch, not a conspiracy.

Vertical interval data looks like this at the top of the screen.

[vhelp]

..still, I think the test should be tried at least, because its not fully
known, the cause. And, any ideas (or theories) brought out, should not go
untried. And, saggitarius; should be the one to try it because, after all,
he was the one who *is* having this problem. At least we'll know.

-vhelp 4074

[edDV]

..still, I think the test should be tried at least, because its not fully
known, the cause. And, any ideas (or theories) brought out, should not go
untried. And, saggitarius; should be the one to try it because, after all,
he was the one who *is* having this problem. At least we'll know.

-vhelp 4074

I agree but I've only seen the problem infrequently but then when it did happen it made me go angry (e.g. the Alison Krause on "All-Star Bluegrass Celebration" on PBS that failed to record with ATI MMC while I was out of town twice). Still angry I am. And yes I did order the DVD.

[MOVIEGEEK]

I agree but I've only seen the problem infrequently but then when it did happen it made me go angry (e.g. the Alison Krause on "All-Star Bluegrass Celebration" on PBS that failed to record with ATI MMC while I was out of town twice). Still angry I am. And yes I did order the DVD.

I saw it and it's a good show.

As for MMC I would not use it*,you might want to capture with Ulead VideoStudio.
*if it works for you great but I don't like it.

[edDV]

I agree but I've only seen the problem infrequently but then when it did happen it made me go angry (e.g. the Alison Krause on "All-Star Bluegrass Celebration" on PBS that failed to record with ATI MMC while I was out of town twice). Still angry I am. And yes I did order the DVD.

I saw it and it's a good show.

As for MMC I would not use it*,you might want to capture with Ulead VideoStudio.
*if it works for you great but I don't like it.

Yes but:

MMC will capture to full DVD ready MPeg2 with semi-hardware encoding and it is able to be scheduled. ULead requires uncompressed capture or software MPeg2 encoding.

[VegasBud]

edDV,

In this thread, you've said several times that you think the problem is caused by something in the VBI. I also think that's a reasonable assumption. However, I am not understanding why you make a distinction between whether it's a real signal embedded in the VBI, or a misperception of the existence of the signal from within the software. Either way there's a problem, whose origin is in the VBI, which therefore can very likely be solved by the use of a tbc.

False perception of macrovision is something that comes up from time to time when converting vhs home videos. The use of a tbc eliminates the problem, which is also a misperception of a signal in the VBI.

There's something else that you might have the answer to. I've read that a professional tbc can target just specific areas of the VBI. Based on the way a consumer tbc just strips closed captioning, I'm assuming that one of the ways a consumer tbc can be sold for so much less is that it just rewrites the entire VBI. Is that correct, or is the consumer tbc rather hardcoded to just rewrite specific areas (which makes it hard to understand why they would target closed captioning)?

[edDV]

edDV,

In this thread, you've said several times that you think the problem is caused by something in the VBI. I also think that's a reasonable assumption. However, I am not understanding why you make a distinction between whether it's a real signal embedded in the VBI, or a misperception of the existence of the signal from within the software. Either way there's a problem, whose origin is in the VBI, which therefore can very likely be solved by the use of a tbc.

False perception of macrovision is something that comes up from time to time when converting vhs home videos. The use of a tbc eliminates the problem, which is also a misperception of a signal in the VBI.

There's something else that you might have the answer to. I've read that a professional tbc can target just specific areas of the VBI. Based on the way a consumer tbc just strips closed captioning, I'm assuming that one of the ways a consumer tbc can be sold for so much less is that it just rewrites the entire VBI. Is that correct, or is the consumer tbc rather hardcoded to just rewrite specific areas (which makes it hard to understand why they would target closed captioning)?

I suspect the VBI mainly because it only happens on one analog channel, for very rare programs and happens again when that same program repeats. I'm not sure what else could trigger the AIW MMC software message other than VI data. We do know that MMC monitors closed captioning.

In a broadcast situation the lines passed are selectable and if I recall correctly, closed captions and V-Chip codes appear in the last line above active video. There are also data blocks for station ID and program name that are OSD displayed on newer TV sets.

I'm not sure if consumer TBCs pass that line or strip it.

PS: I think this is the technology -- CGMS-A
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CGMS-A

But I'm still thinking the MMC is sensing this in error because nothing else responds to it. For example, I recorded that program to a DV camcoder with no message response.

[saggitarius]

WoW. I am a bit overwhelmed by all this information that has been provided.

To comment on some of the things that have been brought up.......

I have had this message appear many times on different stations. It appears almost instantly if I am doing a scheduled recording or I tell MMC to record for a specified amount of time. If I just tell it to record, it takes longer to come up, but it does eventually show up. I have tried with multiple channels to see if it were just one channel, but do any of you believe the Weather Network is also protected? I saw it with me own two eyes I did.


I will look into the CC bit and see if that changes anything. I do not yet have a TBC, so I cannot explore that route. The closest thing I have is a Sima Colour Corrector that also has a macrovision filter that I got from eBay, but I am not sure if it is working because the last time I used it my screen looked like I had taken that brown acid at Woodstock. That or my cables are fubarred somewhere along the way.

Thanks all for your helpful information thus far.

[edDV]

You are seeing the message far more often than I am. For me it is one analog station and with a few specific programs.

The cause could be a CGMS-A flag placed in error by a broadcaster or a false positve generated by ATI MMC software. In your case it looks like the latter. I suppose you should call ATI support for their take on the messsage being generated.

[saggitarius]

So you don't think it could be my local cable company's evil plot to get me to subscribe to their PVR (Rogers on Demand) packages? Perhaps they have inserted this broadcast flag onto their more popular channels in order to deter people like me who can do the same thing that the PVR does on my computer?

I have another capture card, a Leadtek TVTuner, that I should re install on my machine and see what happens then. Would hopefully determine who is causing what.

[edDV]

So you don't think it could be my local cable company's evil plot to get me to subscribe to their PVR (Rogers on Demand) packages? Perhaps they have inserted this broadcast flag onto their more popular channels in order to deter people like me who can do the same thing that the PVR does on my computer?

I have another capture card, a Leadtek TVTuner, that I should re install on my machine and see what happens then. Would hopefully determine who is causing what.

Others would be complaining.

[royphil345]

There are many issues that made me switch from an ATI capture card over to a Hauppauge PVR-250 (now discontinued).

The ATI had some really nice features. Was probably capable of a little better quality at the highest quality capture settings... The Hauppauge is just so trouble-free though... Can play computer games while I capture at DVD quality with no ill effects. Macrovision has NO effect on the PVR-250 (not sure about the newer models)... Captures are DVD ready. Card works well with SAGEtv for Tivo-like functionality and sending media to other computers / media extenders around the house via wireless network.

Only down-side to the Hauppauge is some really crappy software included. Like a MPEG 2 editor that creates files not even compatible with the other included software... Get some good software and you'd never be sorry about switching to a Hauppauge card.