Which format is best for putting video on a website?

[blackqueen]

Well, the title says it all really. I am editing video clips to put on a website for a band. I obviously want to make sure as many people as possible can view the video clips. Which format is best? I have the files in AVI and can convert to MPEG (I or II?) and wmv etc but I want to make sure those on Macs can view the clips as well. Which is the best universal format? I don't want to have to put up 5 different versions of each clip to satisfy everyone - I don't think my server could cope!

Your advice on this matter would be gratefully received. Cheers all...

[ozymango]

I know you don't wanna do the five variations on the same clip sorta thing, but if you really want to reach the widest possible audience ... ... it's multiple format time!!!

Actually that's not quite true, but having worked on a couple of websites for friends who do make music and want to share their stuff, I've pretty much ended up doing clips in three formats:

1) Windows media (wmv)
2) Real media (rm)
3) Quicktime (mov)

So I'd say those are pretty much the "standard" for web stuff, in terms of ease of use, people already able to view them based on currently installed plugins, reasonable size compression, etc. And even then, there's a big question of bitrate -- will this work best for DSL/Cable viewing? Modem? Should we consider having different file sizes available depending on your internet connection? Sigh. It's a pain in the butt, I tell you!

Okay, all that being said, if I had to go one format and one format only -- and I don't so there is that caveat -- I'd go for "Real." I know, I know, many people HATE Real player (I'm not crazy about it myself), but some things it has going for it are:

* Can play on Mac or PC with free plugin
* Encoder is available for free (in somewhat limited form, but still very useful).
* Definitely a "standard" in the web world
* Can actually look and sound pretty decent.

Sometimes I get weird audio "artifacts" when doing music-type encoding with Real, but that depends a lot on bitrate and file size. And as for what bitrate and filesize to choose, that's up to you and lot of experimentation with your source material.

Windows Media also has a free version of their encoder so it's a decent runner-up, but I'm not sure how it behave on the Mac platform, if it works at all. Any Mac people able to fill us in on this?

Personally I lean towards Quicktime for the best all-around balance of quality and compression, and with the free player it'll work in any platform -- but the encoder does cost. Though not much, I think it's $30-ish, not bad at all really. However, I have had some reports of people having problems viewing .mov (quicktime) files in some browsers under some conditions ... this is why I always end up doing the multiple formats thing.

Anyway, so if you really want to use just one format, I'd lean towards either Real (for free, if you're really cheap) or Quicktime (if you don't mind spending a few $$$). And count on somebody visiting your site complaining that they hate Real and won't use it, or hate Quicktime and won't use it, sigh, so depending on who complains the most, you can adjust further recordings in the future.

Good luck and have fun!

[blackqueen]

Wow Ozymango, that's pretty comprehensive - thanx ever so for that. I already have WMV files so that's cool and I know people like them and they're not too large but, like you said, not sure how well those on Mac can handle them so would be good to have something else.

I have Quicktime Pro and I know it compresses the files down to .mov really well but I was doing it with some MPEG files and when I go to open them there's no sound, and then when I open them a different way there is. I don't quite understand. Any ideas? Or can someone give me an idiot's guide to how to export and convert files (and in which format) to .mov using Quicktime Pro?

Thanx again. Really really helpful. I knew you guys were the business!

[zoobie]

reminds me of a few years ago when everybody was trying to code for netscape 4.7 which was a piece of crap 4% used

i'd go with wmv hands down for a seamless display and forget the 4% macs

[blackqueen]

Oooh harsh Zoobie, harsh! :P My problem is that as I'm dealing with people in the music industry, lots of them seem to be on Macs. Hence why I'm trying to be all inclusive. You can't win sometimes, can you?

[ozymango]

I have Quicktime Pro and I know it compresses the files down to .mov really well but I was doing it with some MPEG files and when I go to open them there's no sound, and then when I open them a different way there is. I don't quite understand. Any ideas? Or can someone give me an idiot's guide to how to export and convert files (and in which format) to .mov using Quicktime Pro?

Ah, the joys of format conversion!

Okay, good, you've got QT Pro, this'll do you just fine. Pay no attention to the nice man who said wmv was the way to go; from a PC worldview I certainly see his point but as somebody who, like you, is also going for those 4% of the people with Macs (who also happen to have $$$!), QT will suit you just fine for both the Windows and Mac environments. Also frankly I think QT does a better job at lower bitrates but that's just me, please nobody throw knives or anything!

Okay, you've got QT Pro and so here's (hopefully) short (and hopefully helpful) "guide" time -- the ".mov" file that QT uses is not really a file type by itself, it's a "container" for a whole string of audio and video codecs that QT can use, depending on your configuration. Sorta like the .avi file extension, which isn't an industry standard like MPG-1 or MPG-2, where that by definition tells you what codec(s) you're using. So if you simply save as a "mov" file, you may or may not end up with a file that'll play on most systems, depending on whatever codecs are installed on the receiving end. Bummer, I know.

But wait, there are some (reasonably standard) standards! I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say your resulting file will play sound if you open it "a different way." Do you mean a different viewing method (like playing it in a browser window, versus playing it directly in the QT viewer)? So I'm a bit lost there. But I'll assume that because you do manage to get sound one way, the actual encoded file is just fine, but whatever audio codec that got used for encoding, is working properly in one playback method and not another.

Are you playing this on a Mac or a PC? Not that I can think of any immediate reason why that would make a difference ... well, maybe we'll come back to that later.

Okay, my gut hunch is, it's a simple codec issue and what I would recommend is that you re-encode this and manually choose the codecs. There are a couple of codecs I use as my "default" when making QT mov files for web play and so far these have worked on every system I've ever tested. Touch wood.

To manually set the codecs in QT, open QT, select the original file you want to convert, and go to Export. When the "Export/Save as..." window comes up, go to the bottom, make up whatever file name you want to save it as, and in the "Export:" option line, choose "Export to Quicktime Movie."

Then next to that on the right, click the "Options" button, and it'll pop up a little window labeled "Movie Settings"-- this is where we can change the audio and video codecs, and there should be checkable boxes here for "Video" and "Sound".

There should already be displayed whatever audio and video codecs you're using, and if you feel like it, jot whatever is displayed next to "Compression:" (that's the video codec) and, in the audio section, "Format" (that's the audio codec) and that'll tell me a lot more about what the problem might be. I'm pretty sure that QT 7 now uses the H.264 codec by default, and while it looks awesome, I've had it puke on a couple of systems. Just anecdoctal evidence, but that might be it.

Anyway, in the "Movie Settings" window, click the "Settings" button in the "Video" section, and another window will pop up, "Standard Video Compression Settings." Right near the top is the line, "Compression Type:" followed by a list dialog box. Scroll the list and choose:

Sorenson Video 3

You can leave all the default settings as is. Then select "OK" , and go back to the "Movie Settings" window and click the "Settings" button in the "Sound" section.

In here, because you want music (I'm assuming, being it's for a band site! ), here are the settings I use for music video playback (sounds good, and has played on all systems so far:

Format: Qdesign Music 2
Channels: Stereo (LR)
Rate: 44.100

The Sorenson and Qdesign codecs (free version, included in QT) are very nice and they've been part of QT since version 5 (I think), so this should give you a very high compatibility playback for those using QT to view files. And of course some users may not use QT, but you can't make everybody happy, ya know?

Anyway, try the above and see if it works for you or not. And if those were already your default settings ... grrrr .... ... well, we'll try something else if that happens.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

[Cornucopia]

Flash video! (in preferably FLV format, but also in std SWF format as long as length isn't too much)

Works with both PC's and Mac's. Just need to download browser plugin or standalone player to view.

Internally it uses either Sorenson Spark codec (aka MPEG4 variant of h.263) or SparkPro (unfortunately only available via Sorenson Squeeze compressor suite) or the newest version can also use On2 VP7 codec (similar to WMV9/h.264).

Need good enough machine to smoothly play, but can choose a variety of bitrates and is streamable.

If you ignore Mac people, WMV9 is definitely the way to go quality/filesize-wise. I've done lots of these for corporate clients.

Haven't been happy with Real media for a long time (I especially hate the ^%(()(*^ player).

Scott

[ozymango]

Flash video! (in preferably FLV format, but also in std SWF format as long as length isn't too much)

I've been curious to learn Flash myself as I work for a school and can get the Macromedia Flash creator for really cheap, but on test platform it looks like it has a really steep learning curve. Do you use the full version of Flash and just took the time to learn it, or are there some other easier ways to convert from video to flash? Can you recommend any good guides?

[Cornucopia]

There are a couple of shareware converters out there, but they don't do a very good job with settings control and/or quality.

IIRC, you can output to Flash with the newest Premiere & AfterEffects.

You could work from within Macromedia's (now Adobe's) Flash creator app, but you're right--it is a steep learning curve. And pretty much wasted if all you want to do is linear video playback.

It's much more straightforward to use one of the batch converter apps:
Sorenson Squeeze
discreet Cleaner
(possibly) Canopus ProCoder

Might be other ways, that's just what I've learned.

Scott

[Bodysurf]

Well, the title says it all really. I am editing video clips to put on a website for a band. I obviously want to make sure as many people as possible can view the video clips. Which format is best?

VCD-compliant MPEG-1.

I have the files in AVI and can convert to MPEG (I or II?) and wmv etc but I want to make sure those on Macs can view the clips as well. Which is the best universal format?

VCD-compliant MPEG-1.

[edDV]

Flash is the number 4 choice but assumes the viewer is motivated to download the everchanging viewer program. Anticipated viewer internet bandwidth is a key issue.

It comes down to your "marketing" strategy for your site. Do you want the video to just play (WMV) or maybe play (Real or QT) or require the user to download the latest version (flash).

[Cornucopia]

You want truly universal, go MPG1. Quality and functionality will leave something to be desired, particularly compared to more recent alternatives. Otherwise, depends on what you consider "universal"...

Scott

[handyguy]

Xilisoft can output to so many formats my head spins:
Xilisoft DVD Ripper Platinum is capable of converting DVD to all popular video formats such as AVI, MPEG, WMV, DivX, RM, MOV, MP4, 3GP, 3G2, ASF, etc., and to audio formats including MP3, WAV, WMA, AAC, AC3, M4A, MP2, OGG, etc.

[blackqueen]

Wow... and like wow! My head is spinning somewhat! Ozymango, I'll try your user guide on my QT Pro - thanx for that, very helpful.

I def don't want to go the Flash route. Too difficult and time consuming and I know lots and lots of people who already complain about Flash.

MPEG1 files I have already converted to but I wasn't sure of their compatibility with all users. They're also not that small, are they? But I guess if I only have to put up one format of video then that helps in terms of web space.

And how can you tell the difference between an MPEG1 and MPEG2 file? And how come 1 works for everyone and 2 doesn't?

I know, I know... MORE questions! Should I have kept my mouth shut?!! I am on such a learning curve here and it's been brilliant hearing from all of you. I just want to understand a little more...

[yoda313]

And how can you tell the difference between an MPEG1 and MPEG2 file? And how come 1 works for everyone and 2 doesn't?

Gspot beta can tell you. But frankly the quality of the video will be a BIG hint. mpeg1 is generally pretty noisy (artifacts) and mpeg2 is much better even at low bitrates. Also file size is a dead give away. vcd mpeg 1 video is roughly 10mb a minute. Mpeg2 can be pretty much any rate per minute depending on the bitrate and audio quality.

Personally I always encode to divx for web stuff. Though if its really large I use wmv to make it smaller and keep some quality to it.

Also mpeg1 has been around for YEARS and basically every computer and os can play a vcd file. BUT mpeg2 requires special codecs to play and not every computer is setup to handle them without special dvd player software - or open net software.

[vitualis]

I refuse to install QT on my PC. Real Player is almost as bad but is slightly better behaved, insofar you can turn it off. QT is the model of "arrogant software".

If you want universal compatibility, you will have to encode it to several formats (i.e., QT (MOV) and WMV and Real).

Regards.

[Cornucopia]

vitualis, my experience with Real and QT are the reverse... Real wants to take over ALL my media extensions even when I tell it not to, including DVD playback, it will NOT allow you to turn of the boot up tray app, and you can't get around it's advertising crap. QT in it's setup will ask which extensions to use and won't step on others' toes, loads a bootup tray app that can be permanently turned off if need be, and only has advertising at player startup if you start without loading a document.

Otherwise, they both bother me somewhat, but I use QT for lots of things, Real for next-to-none.

I still think Universal is MPEG1 (I would have thought you would have said the same here considering your past VCD expertise).

Works on:
PCs: 486 on up, Win3.1/NT3.1 on up
Macs: PowerMac 7.5 on up
Linux: All that I know of
Most Game boxes, Settops, etc.

re: which is it? MPEG1 or 2?...
The extension ".mpg" doesn't tell you much, but there are other more particular extensions you could use (won't go into that now).
You can have a MPEG1 encoded video multiplexed in either an MPEG1 or MPEG2 system stream, and vice versa (have succeded as much in testing).

Use Gspot, Bitrate viewer, or Manzanita's MPEGID (I like it alot) or a few other apps to see exactly what you've got.

I agree basically with what yoda said, except the bit about MPEG2 being ok at even low bitrates.

Scott

[zoobie]

i read you needed macs...dunno why i even posted...sorry

however, getting 320x240px movies to display smoothly at 250kbps can become an artform unto itself

[vitualis]

@ Cornucopia:

I hadn't installed the Real player for a long time... but recently installed the latest free Real player to listen to some content. It asked which extensions it was going to take over during the installation. It still put itself on the taskbar but that was disabled easily...

I haven't touched QT for a while as well so perhaps the latest one is better behaved. However, since I can get by almost entirely without QT, there is no need for it. No one, e.g., makes radio broadcasts in QT" format...

I agree that MPEG-1 is the most universal, however, it is probably not good enough a codec for any length of video on the WEB in terms of size versus quality.

Regards.

[Wile_E]

Every quicktime file I ever downloaded has been either poor quality or a very small resolution 320x240. I've never seen high-quality quicktime files that are in DVD resolution, except for what you get in games like Myst IV Revelation. I personally hate quicktime and flash. The built-in player in webpages never let you resize the video bigger when you stream files. You are stuck with a tiny little screen, when running your monitor at 1600x1200. Better to choose WMV and let the people download the files directly. RealMedia has always been poor quality too IMO. WMV, although a MS product, seems to give better output at lower bitrates with little macroblocks.

Go to here for examples:
http://www.apple.com/trailers/

Tiny viewscreens and the player gives you no control to zoom in or make it bigger. Pathetic.

[ozymango]

And how can you tell the difference between an MPEG1 and MPEG2 file? And how come 1 works for everyone and 2 doesn't?

Now see what you've started!

Seriously, if you choose only one format, somebody's not gonna like it (as noted here, many people actually and adamantly refuse to install certain codecs/players, and depending on if they're in your target audience, you sometimes have to decide if you can work around that or not).

As for telling the difference between MPG-1 and MPG-2, somebody else already covered that (didn't they?). As for why MPG-2 doesn't work for all people, right now it's just that the MPG-2 codec costs $$$ (not that many $$$ but it does cost) to license to use. It doesn't come stock on your OS, though it does often come as part of whatever DVD software you get if you have any kind of DVD player in your system. For most computers nowadays, a DVD-ROM (at least) device is standard, so so is the MPG-2 codec (as part of that package). But there are certainly quite a number of PCs and Macs out there that don't have DVD players built-in, and so there's still a good chance you'll encounter some computer that doesn't have the MPG-2 codec installed.

I believe there is at least one free version of this codec out there, but to my understanding it's not just a "run the .exe file" to install, meaning your average shmo who doesn't have a clue what MPG is about would seek it out. So for the widest compatibility (i.e. free and/or already included in some other install), I still think it's best to go with QT, Real, and/or WMV.

As for the various complaints you'll inevitably get from somebody or other regarding whatever video format you end up using , for the most part that does depend a lot on the receiver's computer -- no offense to anybody here but I've viewed hundreds, if not thousands, of files on all sorts of computer, MOV, RM, WMV, and if properly encoded at a decent file size and bitrate, they all work just fine. And if you can figure out how to burn a DVD for yourself, you really can get all three players to work just fine on your computer.

Yes, sometimes your end user will have to update his or her software. That's the nature of the beast, alas. And again it's worthwhile to mention that using QT as an encoder doesn't mean you have to use QT as a viewer -- the MOV file can use codecs that can play in different players. But true, a lot of this requires experimentation on the encoder's (your!) part to figure out how it'll all end up. Which can be a pain.

I hope this doesn't sound too overwhelming because bottom line it's really not that bad -- the best thing I recommend is just trying a couple of different tests with sample encodes, post 'em to your site, and have friends on different platforms give a look and see who has problems, what the problems are, if any, and then you can post the specific problems here and we can fight more about the best solution to fix things!

Good luck and, most importantly, have fun!

EDIT: One thing that throws a monkey in the wrench in the whole web media thing is the new video iPod -- the MP-4 (or H.264) codecs that Apple is using for things like iMovie are still a bit off the mainstream for many users, but the fact that an amazing number of people are willing to pay $1.99 to download TV shows and music you couldn't pay me to watch in the first place (and this on a 2" screen, to boot!) could be something to keep in mind with your band media stuff. That is, with the popularity of iPod and iVideo and All-Things-Apple, I really don't think you can go wrong (financially) with QuickTime's newest incarnation.

[moyea]

Flash is the perfect solution for video as the installed base of flash is extremely large, the load time is quick and the video quality is better than ever using new On2 VP6 codec (flash player 8 is required).

[edDV]

Flash requires the user to download and install the player. Many are wary of requests to download and install a *.exe install file for good reason.

If your stuff is so good that they will come running and do anything to get it, then flash flv, divx or xvid can be used.

If your income depends on them watching your stuff, you will use wmv, mov and/or real.

[DarrellS]

I agree with the WMV guys and even the flash movies look ok but as mentioned, alot of people are leary when they have to install a special player to watch a movie. I know I won't let Realplayer or Quicktime near my machines. I don't like spyware and the quality sucks. Besides, I won't pay anyone money who wants to force me to use their proprietory software. At least the WMV9 doesn't look too bad if compressed right and it plays fine in my old spyware free players.

Your best bet in my opinion is to leave them as AVI. An XviD or DivX file can look pretty good and not take up alot of space. WMV will compress down a little better for bandwidth. MPEG is the most universal (and used) and although it might not look as good as AVI, it looks way better than QT and Realmedia.

The only reason than I can see any website wanting to use QT or RM is if the companies payed the websites a % to force people to use their payware players to view the pay for view content and I have no use for those websites.