+R or -R for distribution??

[upshot]

Hey all I just finally finished converting my entire vhs educational business to DVD and will have the new website online soon...

I'm just wondering if I should send out the orders as +R or -R?? what format will have the widest compatibility? Most of my clients are schools and libraries and obviously I can't predict what equipment they will have...

TIA!

[hech54]

If you are going to burn +R's then make sure you have a burner and software capable of bitsetting.
However....you will soon hear equal numbers of people chiming in on this issue from both sides.
I'm not a "fan" of either. I use both formats and have had ZERO complaints about anything I have sent out to people all over the world. To me there is absolutely NO difference.

[SLK001]

I would stick with DVD-R disks. They have been around longer than the + versions, so many more DVD players can handle them. I have a DVD player that doesn't play a DVD+RW disk correctly (and I have never tried a +R disk in it).

Better yet, create a master disk and have your videos PRESSED. It used to be that at quantities of 100, it was cheaper than burning. But I don't keep up with this, so my info may be dated.

[FulciLives]

-R

Make sure you use quality media.

Right now that basically boils down to Taiyo Yuden 8x or 16x DVD-R discs. These can be bought direct from a variety of on-line websites such as RIMA.COM

The other top notch quality DVD-R would be the 16x DVD-R discs by Verbatim. These can be bought at a variety of retail stores such as Best Buy and OfficeMax etc. and come in 25 and 50 packs.

Verbatim 16x DVD-R 50 pack


Verbatim 16x DVD-R 25 pack


Also some packs of the SONY brand of DVD-R discs are saying MADE IN JAPAN on the box and these are very good but make sure the package says MADE IN JAPAN otherwise I wouldn't trust it. For example some might say MADE IN TAIWAN and I would advise against those. Usually speaking you want MADE IN JAPAN DVD-R media. The Verbatim DVD-R discs are MADE IN TAIWAN but are the only MADE IN TAIWAN discs that are of exceedingly high quality.

Last bit of advice ... don't burn 16x DVD-R discs at 16x speed. 8x speed seems to be a good choice. If using 8x Taiyo Yuden discs you can burn at 8x just fine.

Personally I burn most discs at 4x or 6x speed but for most people 8x works fine. Going over 8x even when using discs rated for 16x seems to be ill advised.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Gen-An]

Sony's own DVD-R media made in Taiwan is solid. As far as burning speed goes, you can't lay down a hard and fast rule about not burning at 16x; it depends on the burner and the media. TYG03 burned at full speed is fine in many burners. The little-seen TTH02 media made in Japan is excellent at full 16x speed. MXLRG03 seems good at its rated speed as well.

[upshot]

I was thinking of sticking to Taiyo Yuden 8x media...

As I thought, that -R is probably the winner. In my experience the only players that are trouble will only take -R (toshiba comes to mind...). It seems like +R players that will not take -R are the rare ones....

Thanks once again for all the great information!

[FulciLives]

I was thinking of sticking to Taiyo Yuden 8x media...

As I thought, that -R is probably the winner. In my experience the only players that are trouble will only take -R (toshiba comes to mind...). It seems like +R players that will not take -R are the rare ones....

Thanks once again for all the great information!

Taiyo Yuden 8x DVD-R media is my absolute favorite to use but I have been using these 16x DVD-R Verbatims for a while now because they are easy to buy at the retail level and are often on sale which makes them a bit cheaper than the Taiyo Yuden discs.

My experience is that the Verbatim discs are just as good. In fact LordSmurf (a valued experienced member of our community) seems to think that the Verbatim discs are even better than Taiyo Yuden ... or at the very least as good.

You really can't go wrong with the Taiyo Yuden discs though and unlike the Verbatim discs the Taiyo Yuden do have a blank top which might be better if you intend to distribute them.

In fact CASIO makes a fairly inexpensive "thermal" printer ... under $100 these days ... that prints perfect on the Taiyo Yuden discs. The printer is best used just for simple text or a very simple logo and it only does one color printing but it does add a nice professional touch to the final product. A friend of mine uses the CASIO with the Taiyo Yuden discs and it looks nice. Another key point with the CASIO is you just need the normal Taiyo Yuden discs ... not the special thermal print or inkjet print discs. The only bad thing with the CASIO is that it really eats up the ink ribbons that it uses ... one ribbon will just barely label 100 discs and that is keeping it simple (my friend just prints the DVD TITLE on the disc with no logo).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[ROF]

You can avoid all these by simply going with professional ISO 9002 replication. Most companies I've seen charge about $2.00 per disc(cheaper in larger than 500 quantities) and most include your choice of casing.

[upshot]

You can avoid all these by simply going with professional ISO 9002 replication. Most companies I've seen charge about $2.00 per disc(cheaper in larger than 500 quantities) and most include your choice of casing.

Unfortunately I have 220 individual titles that I distribute on demand to keep overhead under control. If I had one title then this would be the route I'd go.

[upshot]

[quote="FulciLives"]

In fact CASIO makes a fairly inexpensive "thermal" printer ... under $100 these days ... that prints perfect on the Taiyo Yuden discs. The printer is best used just for simple text or a very simple logo and it only does one color printing but it does add a nice professional touch to the final product. A friend of mine uses the CASIO with the Taiyo Yuden discs and it looks nice. Another key point with the CASIO is you just need the normal Taiyo Yuden discs ... not the special thermal print or inkjet print discs. The only bad thing with the CASIO is that it really eats up the ink ribbons that it uses ... one ribbon will just barely label 100 discs and that is keeping it simple (my friend just prints the DVD TITLE on the disc with no logo)

Indeed! I have a primera printer that is in essence the same thing. Eats ribbon like crazy but looks professional on blank discs...

I've only seen 'thermal print' or 'inkjet print' Yuden discs out there?? There is yet another 'plain' version?

[ROF]

You can avoid all these by simply going with professional ISO 9002 replication. Most companies I've seen charge about $2.00 per disc(cheaper in larger than 500 quantities) and most include your choice of casing.

Unfortunately I have 220 individual titles that I distribute on demand to keep overhead under control. If I had one title then this would be the route I'd go.

Sorry I was just thinking of the kids and taxpayers in this. A VHS will far outlast any burnt media.

[FulciLives]

I swear ROF that you have the strangest ideas or "takes" on a variety of subjects.

I think your most recent comment in this thread is yet another example of ROF being ROF which basically means it can be dismissed as nonsensical.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[upshot]

A VHS will far outlast any burnt media.

It will?? So your saying that by moving from vhs to digital I've 'downgraded'?? I mean as it is I get lots of replacement orders for 10yo vhs tapes... You think I should just keep collecting on that? "for the taxpayers benefit"

I'm totally confused....

Eventually I'd like to offer a on demand web streaming subscription service so as I update/add titles they would be instantly available. It would be much cheaper for a school or library over the long run and would provide access to all the material from the start. This is the sort of long range thinking I'm doing... I suppose I feel like ANY video media technology is not going to last 'that long' but a dvd-r should outlive a vhs tape in terms of X plays over Y time.

[ROF]

You can do what you feel is necessary but have you visited the AV departments of these schools? Have you seen how dusty and cramped and mostly disorganized these places are? i think in such an environment VHS would outlive the fragileness of disc media.

[RLT69]

hech54 wrote:

I'm not a "fan" of either. I use both formats and have had ZERO complaints about anything I have sent out to people all over the world. To me there is absolutely NO difference.

Obviously there is a difference between the two media types or else you would not be bitsetting in the first place!

Fact: Not all dvd players support +R media.
Fact: All dvd players support -R media.

Thus if you are going to make DVDs for distribution and you don't know what format is supported, it's a good idea to use -R media. Other than that, there is no difference between +R and -R.

[ROF]

Fact: Not all dvd players support +R media.
Fact: All dvd players support -R media.

I don't know where you get your facts from but in reality there are several players which will not recognize -R media. The latest 7' portable from Durabrand sold at Walmart is an example of a new player that doesn't play -R discs reliably.

[hech54]

Fact: Not all dvd players support +R media.
Fact: All dvd players support -R media.

I don't know where you get your facts from but in reality there are several players which will not recognize -R media. The latest 7' portable from Durabrand sold at Walmart is an example of a new player that doesn't play -R discs reliably.

Like I should have said....you'll get dozens of "-R Fanboys" to chime in
on how +R has ruined their lives by:
1) Killing their favorite dog.
2) Stealing their wife.
3) Etc etc etc etc...
Just don't get them started on +VR format....you'll really
see a barrage of stupidity then.

[FulciLives]

+R is evil
VR is evil

-R is the way to go.

John "FanBoy" Coleman

[SLK001]

A VHS will far outlast any burnt media.

It will?? So your saying that by moving from vhs to digital I've 'downgraded'?? I mean as it is I get lots of replacement orders for 10yo vhs tapes... You think I should just keep collecting on that? "for the taxpayers benefit"

I'm totally confused....

Not hardly. Unless these disks are used as "frisbies", a DVD will easily outlast a video tape - and, the quality at 10 years will be the same as at day 1. Try THAT with a video tape.

Anyway, if the disks are damaged, replication and shipping is far cheaper than for a tape. Plus the fact that the VCR format is living today on borrowed time.

[RLT69]

I don't know where you get your facts from but in reality there are several players which will not recognize -R media. The latest 7' portable from Durabrand sold at Walmart is an example of a new player that doesn't play -R discs reliably.

http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/dvdformats.htm

From that site:

DVD-Video information recorded onto a DVD-R General tends to have a playback compatibility of about 90 to 95 percent with all players that exist. This is the highest compatibility among all burned DVD formats.

DVD-Video information recorded onto a DVD+R tends to have a playback compatibility of about 85 to 90 percent with all players that exist. This is the second-highest compatibility among all burned DVD formats.

Perhaps ALL was too strong a word to use, however the -R format has greater compatibility than the +R format.

I can attest to that, my friend's Toshiba dvd/vcr combo unit does not play +R.

Then again you are using portable players, which typically have problems playing media - we've gone through a few.

[RLT69]

Like I should have said....you'll get dozens of "-R Fanboys" to chime in
on how +R has ruined their lives by:

Wow, I love how you can jump to conclusions in a single bound. You're just so magical like that.

I use +R media you dingbat. I just wanted to point out that one of the pitfalls of using +R is not all dvd players will play them. Since you have NEVER had a problem, I thought I would point out that I had a problem with +R not working. Something open minded people might want to know.

You may return to your ivory tower.

[jman98]

upshot - I'm going to cut to the chase. Whatever you use, -R or +R, you WILL find that someone is going to have problems playing it. That is the reality of burnable DVD media. Nothing works 100% of the time. If you want something to work 100% of the time or close to you, you have no choice but to pay for professionally pressed discs. Since you don't want to do that, I would suggest using good media (Taiyo Yuden or Verbatim) and make some +R and some -R. For the +R discs, do the bit setting if your burner supports it (all do not) to make it look like a DVD-ROM. Make most of whatever type (+ or -) is cheapest and then send out those first, sending out the other type only to those who complain that they can't play your discs. Keep in mind that some older DVD players won't play either format.

[upshot]

I figured this would be slightly controversial.. but, wow.. :-O

LOL

That's what I figured... there would be some who would have trouble and I'd simply eat the shipping and replace with the opposite format. I do have the 'super-old' player fear but, I figure that most schools and libraries did not purchase the cutting edge player many years ago. I'm figuring that they are finally adding players to their equipment recently...

[byteguy]

Keep in mind that some older DVD players won't play either format.

And some people have DVD players that are so cranky they won't even play some commercial disks.

My daughter's teacher had one of those. I created 5 different masters of a disk we were going to give to all the parents. He couldn't read -R, +R, +R bitset, -R 1x burn, or +R bitset 1x burn. I broke down and bought him a new machine at Target for $30. Suddenly, he could read them all.

I made 25 copies using -R media and haven't had anyone complain that they can't view them. But, I admit I made a couple of +R bitset extras to swap out just in-case.

[jlietz]

That's what I figured... there would be some who would have trouble and I'd simply eat the shipping and replace with the opposite format.

Simple solution (works for me): on the ordering page and anywhere else you see fit, explicitly say that you will be sending DVD-R discs and that the client's player must support DVD-R. If they need DVD+R, they must specifically request it upfront. That way, you don't have to eat anything. You just send them DVD-R unless otherwise instructed. I've sent out thousands of DVD's and have only had 1 client that didn't read the disclosure and got stuck with DVD-R discs when he couldn't play them. He just went out and bought a compatible player, but the point is, I haven't had anyone else get stuck with the wrong disks using this method. Saves a lot of hassle and money.

[hech54]

Like I should have said....you'll get dozens of "-R Fanboys" to chime in
on how +R has ruined their lives by:

Wow, I love how you can jump to conclusions in a single bound. You're just so magical like that.

I use +R media you dingbat. I just wanted to point out that one of the pitfalls of using +R is not all dvd players will play them. Since you have NEVER had a problem, I thought I would point out that I had a problem with +R not working. Something open minded people might want to know.

You may return to your ivory tower.

Opinions are like.....bellybuttons(bet you thought I was going to say ******** huh?)....everybody has one.

During my study of rewritable DVD formats it seemed very clear to me that DVD-R(W) standard was not as well designed as DVD+R(W) (or even DVD-RAM). And although some serious efforts have been put in the latest revisions of the - format to fix some of the original problems (at the cost of a much increased complexity), it still remains technically inferior to +, due to some intrinsic weaknesses (e.g. pre-pits). This is not very surprising, as Sony and Philips have a much longer experience at defining standards than Pioneer (and several key patents), and they also had the advantage to publish their standards after their competitors.

Although the arguments presented in this document might look like technical details to most readers, disc format is what defines the limits of what drives can do with a given medium, both in terms of performances and features. Therefore, the technical advantages of the DVD+R(W) format will with time turn into faster, more powerful and more reliable drives for end users. This is already the case today, and the gap will continue to increase as DVD+R(W) drives will exploit more and more of the advantages of the + format. However, as history showed, the best ideas are not guaranteed to win on technology markets, and only time will tell which format becomes the new standard.

Written by some guy named Michael.
http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/113

DVD-Video information recorded onto a DVD-R General tends to have a playback compatibility of about 90 to 95 percent with all players that exist. This is the highest compatibility among all burned DVD formats.

DVD-Video information recorded onto a DVD+R tends to have a playback compatibility of about 85 to 90 percent with all players that exist. This is the second-highest compatibility among all burned DVD formats.

Written by....some other guy.

I respect BOTH of these guys and BOTH of their opinions....however they are opinions.

The drive that I own that is capable of bitsetting isn't very reliable(BenQ1620Pro)....so my +R's are usually NOT bitset. I can usually squeeze out the occasional bitset +R is I burn them slow....but have rarely had the need. Whichever cakebox is closest gets "the nod" when I burn stuff for others...both + and -....zero complaints. Except my ex-girlfriend's old Sony....it wont play anything "recordable"....not even a CD-R.
As a matter of fact my BenQ almost refuses to burn my TY -R 8x discs anymore....that must mean that TY -R 8x discs are garbage....along with all other -R media....

[upshot]

on the ordering page and anywhere else you see fit, explicitly say that you will be sending DVD-R discs and that the client's player must support DVD-R. If they need DVD+R, they must specifically request it upfront.

Very good point! Had considered that, but I suppose in reality it's a 'must do'.

[slacker]

To be even more anal, some knowledgeable person on this web site posted somewhere that ...

TY +R discs are better than Verbatim +R discs and...

Verbatim -R discs are better than TY -R discs

Go figure!

If anyone can find any reference to those statements, I'd be grateful.

For the record I've never had any problem burning either. However, several of the 8x Verbatims I burned EXACTLY one year ago this month have become unreadable.

I continue to archive / backup critical video to tape!

[RLT69]

Let's Recap.

upshot wrote:

I'm just wondering if I should send out the orders as +R or -R?? what format will have the widest compatibility?

Then hech54 wrote:

I use both formats and have had ZERO complaints about anything I have sent out to people all over the world. To me there is absolutely NO difference.

To which I and other's replied:

I would stick with DVD-R disks. They have been around longer than the + versions, so many more DVD players can handle them.

What part of compatibility don't you understand? There are dvd players out there in the world that DO NOT SUPPORT +R. That's a fact. Read the specs. My friend has a Toshiba unit that does not support +R. I need to use -R media. The unit is not faulty. It just doesn't support +R. Period.

Thus when upshot asked about COMPATIBILITY, I and others said yes there is a problem with +R.

And for the record I use +R. Why? Because that's what I started using. But I know that some dvd players will not play +R so I need to use -R because their specs do not support +R. It's becoming a rarity with the newer models but it's a fact with some of the older models.

[byteguy]

Opinions are like.....bellybuttons(bet you thought I was going to say ******** huh?)....everybody has one.

Uh... actually, my wife doesn't have a bellybutton. Not anymore (long story). She had one when I married her though (I checked).

(oops, better get back on-topic) She also doesn't have an opinion on -R vs. +R. I'm sure of that.