I looked at HDTV sets today and I'm not happy.

[EAO]

Like many other's I have been caught up in the HDTV wave. I don't own one - yet. And my desire to get one is not as strong as it was before this experience.

Tonight I went to a local HHGregg. I had seen the 50" Sony SXRD HDTV there before. It has an incredible picture. This time I brought some DVD's that I had backed up at varying compressions, because I had seen it attached to a progressive scan DVD player. (Don't recall the model - but that feature was clearly marked on the label.) However this DVD player was not upconverting according to the salesman.

I was disappointed at the DVD reproduction quality on anything less than 100%. . For the most part I use DVD Shrink as a last step after stripping out most all menus and features with vobbanker - but even at 90% compression, the picture quality suffered horribly on HDTV.

So... all my retail DVD's are OK (i.e. tolerable) but their backup's are pretty much useless unless upconverting players really make a huge difference.

Which got me to thinking about why I would want an HDTV now anyway....

(How many real interesting HDTV channels are there right now?)

1. I'm under the impression that reg channels on an HDTV cable/sat reciever are broadcast at the same quality as on std recievers.

I know how bad they look on a std set - after seeing my slightly compressed DVD's - I would guess that std channels pretty much suck on an HDTV set. Y or N ?

2. Any TV capture that I make on my std sat reciever is also going to look like crap if I watch them on to HDTV set. Y or N?

3. I also don't see any advantage to increasing my capture bitrate because I'm only capping the lousy (and lossy) signal their sending - correct?

So I guess I'm well over capturng from std TV at this point unless I either do it from a true HDTV source or intend to avoid HDTV sets for a decade...regardless my future backup's will have to be with no compression so at least they can be of some use in the distant future.

[ebenton]

The local channels around here broadcast two signals, the regular analog signal and a digital signal. When the networks have a HD program, they broadcast it in HD and the HDTV will receive it, assuming you are tuned to the correct channel. If you leave your TV tuned to the old channel numbers, you will still get the old signal.
I have noticed that sometimes compressed DVDs don't look too good. These are usually the ones that DVD Shrink compressed at 56% or some other low amount. However, I don't have any issues with commercial DVDs, or less-compressed copies.
I have a Sony 42" Vega LCD-projection HDTV tht I bought back in December 2004. I also have digital cable. Perhaps if I were receiving local channels over theair, I would have more complaints, but I doubt it.

[edDV]

1. I'm under the impression that reg channels on an HDTV cable/sat reciever are broadcast at the same quality as on std recievers.

I know how bad they look on a std set - after seeing my slightly compressed DVD's - I would guess that std channels pretty much suck on an HDTV set. Y or N ?

N. There are two broadcast systems, old NTSC and DTV. DTV can have many broadcast resolutions (google: "ATSC DTV"). The lowest ATSC DTV standard is approximately equal to a DVD (interlaced or progressive) in theory.

HDTV capable sets usually handle the HD and progressive SD channels very well but may or may not perform well with interlaced SD DTV or older NTSC inputs. This depends on how the set treats "legacy" formats.

Not sure what you mean when talking about compressed DVD.

2. Any TV capture that I make on my std sat reciever is also going to look like crap if I watch them on to HDTV set. Y or N?

Maybe, it depends on the HDTV. Dish I hear is only 480x480. DirecTV may be as good as 524x480. The newest cable non-HD digital channels are 524x480. HD is either 1280x720p or 1920x1080i. HD looks very good. Low resolution inputs on an HDTV may look marginal.

The most critical area to look at when buying an HDTV is how it handles VHS, analog cable, sat, and other non-HD inputs. That is what you will be watching 75% of the time.

3. I also don't see any advantage to increasing my capture bitrate because I'm only capping the lousy (and lossy) signal their sending - correct?

N. It will look worse if your bitrate is too low. In theory, you would benefit from more bitrate on a noisy signal.

So I guess I'm well over capturng from std TV at this point unless I either do it from a true HDTV source or intend to avoid HDTV sets for a decade...regardless my future backup's will have to be with no compression so at least they can be of some use in the distant future.

I don't agree. NTSC is NTSC. DTV/DVD SD is SD and HD is HD. I capture at various quality levels depending on what it is. HD is a pain to capture and preserve so I do it seldom.

I think you should buy a "HD-Ready" CRT 26-34 inches. Those do the best job with old captures plus interlaced or progressive SD/HD sources.

They make a great transition TV.

[EAO]

Compressed DVD = DVD Shrink (as an example). Compressing from say...6 gig to a single layer DVD.

"Low resolution inputs on an HDTV may look marginal. " I can't say what the bitrate Dish is using in ATL over a std reciever but I can see artifacting and banding on every channel. I have had 5 different Dish Tech visits and they all say that's normal. I cannot imaging how bad this must look on High def equipment.

Given the quality of signal they are using to broadcast std broadcasts on... I see no value in capturing say episodes of Lost - even at mpeg bitrates of 8000 cbr and watching these broadcasts later on an HDTV. I currently cap using a vbr of 5800 to 8000 on a Winpvr-250.

As to VHS... I don't even want to go there. Are you telling me that retail VHS should look as clear on an HDTV set as it does on say... a 36" old crt tube? If so, then I'll accept it your word for it... since I haven't had the opportunity.

[whitejremiah]

im not really THAT familiar with all the whole HDTV things...but i can tell you that upscaling does DEFINATELY make a differance.....another thing to note, is this.....earlier today i was at the local mass merchant...they had HDTV's wired up to the dvd players with RCA CABLING.........if anything can screw up the picture quality its the cabling...i saw a LOT of analog artifacts and such...im not sure if this may be what happened where you were too......but this thing had component AND HDMI and they were using the lousy RCA cables that came with the dvd player..........just some possible food for thought?

[fritzi93]

I think you should buy a "HD-Ready" CRT 28-34 inches. Those do the best job with old captures plus interlaced or progressive SD/HD sources.

They make a great transition TV.

I took the above advice, and haven't regretted it. Got a 32" CRT ( it's over 200 pds, oof!). NTSC cable actually looks better on it than on either of the SD 27" sets we have. I also have some half D-1 conversions, which look pretty good too. And if you have a player capable of progressive-scan output, it's worth the extra trouble to make the necessary connections.

Good luck.

[edDV]

"Low resolution inputs on an HDTV may look marginal. " I can't say what the bitrate Dish is using in ATL over a std reciever but I can see artifacting and banding on every channel. I have had 5 different Dish Tech visits and they all say that's normal. I cannot imaging how bad this must look on High def equipment.

Given the quality of signal they are using to broadcast std broadcasts on... I see no value in capturing say episodes of Lost - even at mpeg bitrates of 8000 cbr and watching these broadcasts later on an HDTV. I currently cap using a vbr of 5800 to 8000 on a Winpvr-250.

It's the nature of the beast. Are you saying you don't want a HDTV because it will look worse with NTSC or Dish SD inputs? Maybe true but you do get a better DVD playback (progressive 720x480) picture, and HD of course for the few available programs. If you get an over the air DTV tuner, you will get much higher quality local channels. There just isn't an option currently to get better SD cable or sat. At least the Dish HD tuner will output SD channels either as 480i or 480p to the HDTV.

SD cable quality differs locally but changing location is a bit extreme. My local Comcast system went from one of the worst to fiber fed to the last mile this past year @524x480 and bitrates from 3 to 15 Mb/s for SD and 20-25 Mb/s for HD. Digital SD quality is quite good from the HD cable box.

As to VHS... I don't even want to go there. Are you telling me that retail VHS should look as clear on an HDTV set as it does on say... a 36" old crt tube? If so, then I'll accept it your word for it... since I haven't had the opportunity.

VHS would look about the same on a similar size CRT HDTV. CRT and DLP can display interlace sources. It would look worse on a LCD or plasma since they must deinterlace and the "cinema" IVTC doesn't work as well for noisy VHS.

So you can decide to stay with an old TV or buy one of the HD technologies.

[NiteLite]

Nice read edDV.
EAO,
Check out the new Feb. issue of "Home Theater" mag. They do a test of 6 HDTV's. Forget the ratings. But read the reviews and check out what they have to say and settle with in quality terms. Horrible.
The reviewers "try" to paint a rosy picture but the negatives are there in mass amounts.
They all have serious problems to me. I'm not impressed either.
I know HD is where we are heading and I really look forward to it. I just think the hardware has a long way to go to justify costs.
NL

[rhegedus]

HDTV is currently surplus to requirements:

1) Very little that is broadcast is HD.
2) You can't capture what is broadcast as HD since there are no HD hard-drive/DVD recorders.
3) I've yet to find a HD DVD player or any HD authored film.
4) I bought a 42" plasma which though not HD, has a res of 852x480. Even this shows up the slightest inadequacies of current broadcasts and DVD media.

I'd wait until all the fuss dies down, together with the price premium that HD currently attracts, until HD broadcast and DVD media is available wide-scale. There was talk about HD and Blueray on this forum two years ago and no one here is any closer to buying a unit now.

[edDV]

Nice read edDV.
EAO,
Check out the new Feb. issue of "Home Theater" mag. They do a test of 6 HDTV's. Forget the ratings. But read the reviews and check out what they have to say and settle with in quality terms. Horrible.
The reviewers "try" to paint a rosy picture but the negatives are there in mass amounts.
They all have serious problems to me. I'm not impressed either.
I know HD is where we are heading and I really look forward to it. I just think the hardware has a long way to go to justify costs.
NL

Many pro-con to sort through but I don't regret my HD CRT's (Sony and Philips). Great for monitoring DV format edits, looks good for VHS, analog up through 1080i (dotpitch displayed ~800x600), complements the HD cable box, does a good job with progressive DVD and a fair job as a second computer monitor (for viewing MPegs).

Screen size isn't an issue for me. I sit about 5 feet from a 32" screen.

Someday I'll do a HD theater upgrade in the living room area but I'm in no hurry so long as the others remain happy with the large SD TV.

[guns1inger]

I bought a 42" plasma which though not HD, has a res of 852x480. Even this shows up the slightest inadequacies of current broadcasts and DVD media.

Every plasma I have seen has only shown up the inadequacies of the plasma technology - poor colour grading and banding, no clean edges, ghosting and pixel shifting.

I have yet to see any HDTV that impresses me, including HD CRT. Plasma won't get much better, and LCD is still one - two years away from being really ready.

[FulciLives]

I just bought a Hitachi 51" 16x9 HDTV CRT RP and I am happy with the image quality I get from commercial DVD Videos.

I admit that VHS and some cable TV channels don't look so hot but it's not horrible either. In fact my biggest complaint is not VHS or analog cable but "digital" cable channels (SD not HDTV) as these channels tend to have massive MPEG artifacts.

HDTV looks awesome of course and my cable box has a DVR built-in that does record HDTV as HDTV for future playback (ala time shifting).

While researching HDTV sets I must say that I was impressed (and nearly did buy) the Sony 34" 16x9 HDTV CRT Tube ... excellent picture quality and since the screen is not as big as my 51" 16x9 the image should look even better since it is not getting blown up so big.

In my case I went with the Hitachi as it was on sale and in the end only cost a hair's breath more than the aforementioned SONY would have cost after buying a stand for the SONY (the Hitachi doesn't need a stand as it is "built in" if you will). So the SONY + a TV stand = same as the Hitachi (more-or-less).

My only regret?

Yes some cable TV stuff looks like shit on such a large screen but most of it looks good enough and in truth it is my fault as my room is small and I shoud be sitting about 2 feet further away than I am to be at the optimal sitting distance ... those 2 feet back would probably help mask some of the image errors I see now.

But I love the quality of the image overall (especially with DVD and HDTV) and I get a kick out of the TV being so large ... very theatrical like it is!

But a word of caution ... when doing HDTV consider the screen size and your sitting position as optimal sitting distance can make a difference especially when viewing "low" quality source material like those damn MPEG infested cable TV channels!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[EAO]

Thanks for all the input. It has helped.

Pretty much confirms my experience.

I had not thought to look at the cables / inputs being used. To be frank - I was stunned by how bad it was and lost all objective thought. I really want to hope that this is what the issue was.

I'd also like to see what an upconverting DVD player can accomplish.

My main TV is a 36" crt (non HDTV). I would describe the picture as decent/acceptable. It will probably last another 5 years at minimum, but after that it will be time to replace it. I think the timing may be to my advantage.

I am curious if an EDTV might be a better compromise to make lower res archives look good. I wonder if a half D1 cap looks better on an EDtv than on an HDtv?

It was a sobering experience.

I have learned:

1. Do not capture anything for archiving off of a std reciever and expect it to be decent on your plasma or digital TV.

2. You can cap HDTV OTA but your channel selection is so limited as to be essentially useless when contrasted against the appealing selection that std channel broadcast's give you.

3. And even when cab / sat HDTV channels increase, there is the issue of encryption that hangs like a pendulum over your ability to view and store for later viewing.

4. From an earlier thread I am under the impression that while the Dish or Direct HD tuner claims it output's SD channels either as 480i or 480p (Is that perhaps the case on the digital output like HDMI?) the reality is something significantly less. Hopefully the mpeg4 boxes will be better.

Thanks for the education and clarification.

[edDV]

I'd also like to see what an upconverting DVD player can accomplish.

Don't expect any magic here and it may make the DVD picture worse depending on the HDTV technology. Every HDTV has a scaler built in. The issue comes down to external scaling in the player vs internal scaling in the HDTV. In many cases you will find the DVD upscaler is only useful at 720p or 1080i. The HDTV is going to take those inputs a rescale to the native resolution of the HDTV. In most cases, that will mean the HDTV will be downscaling a 1080i input.

My main TV is a 36" crt (non HDTV). I would describe the picture as decent/acceptable. It will probably last another 5 years at minimum, but after that it will be time to replace it. I think the timing may be to my advantage.

I am curious if an EDTV might be a better compromise to make lower res archives look good. I wonder if a half D1 cap looks better on an EDtv than on an HDtv?

EDTV (720x480/576) sets have exactly the same issues for display of "legacy" video as HDTV. The only difference is native display resolution is fixed to ~720x480 rather than a higher HD native resolution (typ. 1366x768, 1440x1080 or 1920x1080). In the case of EDTV, 720p or 1080i inputs are downscaled to 480i or 480p.

I have learned:

1. Do not capture anything for archiving off of a std reciever and expect it to be decent on your plasma or digital TV.

I don't necessarily agree. You should capture with future HD in mind if that is your goal. And you should choose a HDTV later that is best for displaying your SD archives.

Some considerations:
- avoid VCD/SVCD resolutions and extra low MPeg2/MPeg4 bitrates. The consumer TV industry has settled on the HQ(1hr),SP(2hr),LP(3hr) etc. classifications for interlaced MPeg2.

Lite-On specs it this way for single side DVDR. The grouping is mine.

Mode Time Bit Rate Encode NTSC PAL/SECAM --------------------------------------------------------------------------
HQ 1hr 9.5Mbps MPEG2 720X480 720X576
SP 2hrs 5.1Mbps MPEG2 720X480 720X576
LP 3hrs 3.3Mbps MPEG2 352X480 352X576
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
EP 4hrs 2.5Mbps MPEG2 352X480 352X576
SLP 6hrs 1.7Mbps MPEG1 352X240 352X288
SVCD 34mins 2.5Mbps MPEG2 352X480 352X576
VCD 68mins 1.15Mbps MPEG1 352X240 352X288

I'd say stick to the top group if your goal is future large screen display. If the source material is film, you can get 20% more recording time (NTSC only) by doing the IVTC. If you record in progressive MPeg4, test playback on a large display.

As just an example, I currently capture SD and HD to DVDR as follows

HDTV sources
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
HDV 25Mbps MPEG2 1440x1080i (~20 min)
MPeg2TS 20Mbps MPEG2 1920X1080i, 1280x720p (~30 min)
Low HD 7.0Mbps MPEG2 720X480 HD to SD Archives (~85 min)
(Low HD recorded from cable box SD S-Video letterboxed analog output to ADVC-100)

SD sources
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
DV SD 8.2Mbps MPEG2 720X480 DV Archives (~60 min with PCM audio)
High SD 7.0Mbps MPEG2 720X480 SD Archives (~85 min)
Med SD 5.0Mbps MPEG2 720X480 VHS and cable archive
Low SD 2.5Mbps MPEG2 352X480 low quality TV-VHS dubbing
VCD 1.15Mbps MPEG1 352X240 utility news, disposable

Others may have better settings.

2. You can cap HDTV OTA but your channel selection is so limited as to be essentially useless when contrasted against the appealing selection that std channel broadcast's give you.

You can also get the HD cable or sat channels.

3. And even when cab / sat HDTV channels increase, there is the issue of encryption that hangs like a pendulum over your ability to view and store for later viewing.

True but you can always analog record them at 720x480 or use the cable/sat HD DVR.

4. From an earlier thread I am under the impression that while the Dish or Direct HD tuner claims it output's SD channels either as 480i or 480p (Is that perhaps the case on the digital output like HDMI?) the reality is something significantly less. Hopefully the mpeg4 boxes will be better.

As far as I know, Dish uses MPeg2 480x480 at ~2-4Mb/s, DirecTV uses MPeg2 524x480 at ~2-4Mb/s and cable MPeg2 ~524x480 at ~2-15Mb/s.

Depending on your tuner, these are output as RF, NTSC or S-Video. HD tuners add YPbPr, DVI or HDMI interlaced or progressive.

Over the air DTV SD resolutions are MPeg2 720x480 usually 4:3 interlaced but can be 16:9 progressive.

[HiDefDon]

HDTV is currently surplus to requirements:

1) Very little that is broadcast is HD.
2) You can't capture what is broadcast as HD since there are no HD hard-drive/DVD recorders.

You say "very little is broadcast in HD". Do you know that almost all of the network prime time programs are broadcast in High Definition now? That includes NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX, WB, and some PBS and UPN shows. NFL football, much of college football (all the BCS games this year) and baseball playoff games and World Series were all in HD this year. Even shows such as Good Morning America, Jay Leno, David Letterman, Rose Parade, Macy's Parade, Dick Clark's New Years Eve are broadcast in High Definition.

You say there are no HD hard-drive recorders. I have two PCs with digital TV tuner cards and have been using them for three years with excellent results! I am using the HiDTV and MyHD tuner cards in the two PCs. I live in East Plano, Texas and have a VHF and UHF antenna in my attic. This is not a very good location for broadcast TV reception because my attic antennas need to point directly toward the heating/AC unit and the chimney in the attic. Also, the line of sight to the transmitter towers in Cedar Hill, TX goes directly through the tall buildings in downtown Dallas. Even with these obstacles, I get EXCELLENT reception of the DFW digital TV stations at a distance of approximately 30 miles.

I use both PCs to record HDTV programs off the air. Each PC has a removable hard disk which allows me to record on one PC and play the recording back on the multimedia PC which is connected to my 52" Pioneer HDTV. It is also possible to set up a network to share the recorded programs between PC's but I do not want to deal with network security issues on my multimedia PC in the TV room. I also have software (free) which is used to edit commercials from the recording before the recordings are viewed. This software is extremely easy to use and it takes me about 5 minutes to scan through a one hour recording and mark the commercial start and end points. Then the computer needs about 6 minutes to generated the edited file. A typical one hour program runs 42 minutes without commercials.

With this setup and by planning ahead to schedule the recordings, my wife and I have more than enough High Definition commercial-free material to watch! This is free, off-the-air, with no cable or satellite monthly charges. We enjoy all the high definition programs such as movies (Harry Potter, Finding Nemo, and Lord of the Rings are wonderful in high-def), NFL/NCAA football, 24, Lost, Smallville, NCIS, CSI, Everwood, Prison Break, PBS specials, and the IMAX programs on channel 21 in Dallas. Receiving/recording HDTV off-the-air is working so well, that we are planning to get a 55" plasma HDTV for the bedroom with another PC and tuner card.

DonP
Plano, TX

[rhegedus]

HDTV is currently surplus to requirements:

1) Very little that is broadcast is HD.
2) You can't capture what is broadcast as HD since there are no HD hard-drive/DVD recorders.

You say "very little is broadcast in HD". Do you know that almost all of the network prime time programs are broadcast in High Definition now? That includes NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX, WB, and some PBS and UPN shows. NFL football, much of college football (all the BCS games this year) and baseball playoff games and World Series were all in HD this year. Even shows such as Good Morning America, Jay Leno, David Letterman, Rose Parade, Macy's Parade, Dick Clark's New Years Eve are broadcast in High Definition.

I live in the UK where the situation is completely different....

If you're not a sportsfan, very little of the above is either worth watching or has anything to gain by being broadcast in HD. HD just makes Leno's chin look bigger!

You say there are no HD hard-drive recorders. I have two PCs with digital TV tuner cards and have been using them for three years with excellent results! I am using the HiDTV and MyHD tuner cards in the two PCs. I live in East Plano, Texas and have a VHF and UHF antenna in my attic. This is not a very good location for broadcast TV reception because my attic antennas need to point directly toward the heating/AC unit and the chimney in the attic. Also, the line of sight to the transmitter towers in Cedar Hill, TX goes directly through the tall buildings in downtown Dallas. Even with these obstacles, I get EXCELLENT reception of the DFW digital TV stations at a distance of approximately 30 miles.

I use both PCs to record HDTV programs off the air. Each PC has a removable hard disk which allows me to record on one PC and play the recording back on the multimedia PC which is connected to my 52" Pioneer HDTV. It is also possible to set up a network to share the recorded programs between PC's but I do not want to deal with network security issues on my multimedia PC in the TV room. I also have software (free) which is used to edit commercials from the recording before the recordings are viewed. This software is extremely easy to use and it takes me about 5 minutes to scan through a one hour recording and mark the commercial start and end points. Then the computer needs about 6 minutes to generated the edited file. A typical one hour program runs 42 minutes without commercials.

With this setup and by planning ahead to schedule the recordings, my wife and I have more than enough High Definition commercial-free material to watch! This is free, off-the-air, with no cable or satellite monthly charges. We enjoy all the high definition programs such as movies (Harry Potter, Finding Nemo, and Lord of the Rings are wonderful in high-def), NFL/NCAA football, 24, Lost, Smallville, NCIS, CSI, Everwood, Prison Break, PBS specials, and the IMAX programs on channel 21 in Dallas. Receiving/recording HDTV off-the-air is working so well, that we are planning to get a 55" plasma HDTV for the bedroom with another PC and tuner card.

Hardly a typical or off the shelf example - a PC can be configured to do just about anything. Average Joe buying a plasma TV will not have two HD capture cards, two PCs with removable hard disk. The fact remains that there are no HD hard drive or DVDR recorders at present.

Out of curiosity, what res and data rates are you capturing at? I thought RF could only support the most basic of signals, hence RF being the last choice to connect home equipment.

[FulciLives]

What about recording HDTV to a JVC D-VHS VCR?

I'm talking about something like this model here ---> CLICK HERE

The link is for a JVC HM-DH5U which is a D-VHS VCR (or Digital VHS VCR) that is capable of recording HDTV including 1080i, 720p, 480p and 480i formats.

Don't know much about this and not sure exactly how it works. For instance this model does not have a built-in HDTV tuner (a more expensive model does but at nearly double the MSRP the built-in tuner appears to be the only difference). So how you connect this I don't know because with my cable box you can only output HDTV through component cables yet this JVC offers no component video input. It does have 2 FireWire inputs but the JVC website is confusing since in one spot it says, "Digital Set-top box ready with Digital-to-Digital connection via i.Link (IEEE 1394) terminal" which suggest you connect your cable box to the JVC using FireWire but then in another spot it says, "2 x I.Link Terminal (IEEE 1394), DV input only for camcorders" which suggest NO you can't connect a set-up cable/satellite box. I suppose you would have to split the cable comming into the house and have a raw cable feed go directly into the JVC and thus get the non-encrypted HDTV channels? I don't know. I do assume though that the unit will only record non-encrypted channels?

My cable box has a built-in DVR that will save any channel in HDTV as HDTV but the only way of saving it would be to connect the S-Video to my stand alone DVD recorder and via S-Video it outputs 480i 4:3 WS.

But at least with the cable box DVR I can record HDTV if I am not home and watch it later in HDTV even if it is an encrypted channel.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
The MSRP of this JVC D-VHS is $799.95 but using PRICEGRABBER.COM resulted in many on-line stores selling it for just under $500.00 which makes it a bit expensive compared to an HDTV computer capture card (assuming you don't count the cost of an existing computer) but then again the JVC would be more convienent for those that don't have their PC near their HDTV set.

[Steve Stepoway]

tReceiving/recording HDTV off-the-air is working so well, that we are planning to get a 55" plasma HDTV for the bedroom with another PC and tuner card.

Do you know of the recent study that shows that a TV in the bedroom = less sex?

As for a 55" HDTV and PC in the bedroom, well ...

Steve

[Topher5000]

I've got a Hitachi PJ-TX100 front projector with a 121" diagonal screen (actually a wall painted light grey).
DVDs played over component with a progressive player look great. AVIs encoded with AutoGK at a 75 quality setting & played with XBMC at 720p look great also.
DirecTV looks fine with the movie channels (HBO etc.) & PPV looks fine. Sports & Sci-Fi look like garbage. They must really compress the signal to fit in more channels. Bummer, cause I really like Battlestar Galactica.
I think if broadcast TV looks so bad on an HDTV that it's unwatchable, it's the fault of the broadcaster & you should complain. If enough people do it, perhaps they'll improve the pq when they're able to.

[handyguy]

Dvds are only 480i.... won't look a lot better on a set like that. Wait for some hd dvds.

[edDV]

Dvds are only 480i.... won't look a lot better on a set like that. Wait for some hd dvds.

NTSC DVD can be 720x480i/29.97 or 720x480p/23.976 displayed as 59.94 fps

16:9 Progressive 720x480p (aka EDTV) is a significant step up for most people and is quite acceptable for a large room TV that will be viewed from >10 feet. Many PAL countries are trying to pass off 720x576 as a high definition solution. I wouldn't go that far but 480p/576p make a good transition point.

Next step up is 1280x720p, then ~1440x1080 to 1920x1080

I like the concept of an intermediate step to mid size EDTV or 720p with a set that does a good job with normal cable/sat SD. You then have several levels of quality that are watchable.

If you go too large in screen size, only HDTV will be acceptable.

[jagabo]

Do you know of the recent study that shows that a TV in the bedroom = less sex?

But do they know which is the cause and which is the effect? LOL

[ktnwin]

It's quite strange. I have played my backup DVD discs on at least two HDTV (65" rear projection and 55" LCD wide screen), the picture look perfect. Sound like it has to do with the DVD player itself.

[EAO]

... Sci-Fi look like garbage. They must really compress the signal to fit in more channels. Bummer, cause I really like Battlestar Galactica.
I think if broadcast TV looks so bad on an HDTV that it's unwatchable, it's the fault of the broadcaster & you should complain. If enough people do it, perhaps they'll improve the pq when they're able to.

Yup. Exactly my problem.

Tried 4-5-6 times with tech visits and phone calls to get it resolved. Bottom line = Dish Network does not give a The majority of their viewing subscribers would not know pixalization and compression when looking right at it. Dish knows this, so why would they not keep cramming networks onto their strained bandwidth. Anyway... this is somewhat off topic - even if it is one of the major reasons I will avoid HDTV until the new equipment comes out.

edDV :

Makes me feel better that someone understands what I was trying to say about EDtv. Very curious to see if it handles color better than the true HDTV plasma's and LCD projections.

The HHgregg I was at also had a WS 42" HDTV Hitachi lcd projection at the front of the store playing the WS Spider-Man 2 DVD. There was no artifacting (like with my compressed backup's) but the color management was awful. Until tech changes I am really torn between wanting something at least as big as a 50" screen vs an HDTV tube - which seems to handle color much (significantly) better.

[edDV]

edDV :

Makes me feel better that someone understands what I was trying to say about EDtv. Very curious to see if it handles color better than the true HDTV plasma's and LCD projections.

The HHgregg I was at also had a WS 42" HDTV Hitachi lcd projection at the front of the store playing the WS Spider-Man 2 DVD. There was no artifacting (like with my compressed backup's) but the color management was awful. Until tech changes I am really torn between wanting something at least as big as a 50" screen vs an HDTV tube - which seems to handle color much (significantly) better.

As I said above, EDTV is no different than HDTV in the display of NTSC and MPeg2 (e.g. cable digital, dbs , DVD) other than native screen resolution. The display technology determines how colors (contrast, brightness, saturation ond hue) are displayed. The comb filter, deinterlacing and scaling circuits will determine how various input signals are handled and the level of artifacts.

A normal interlace NTSC TV will maginify color separation errors and MPeg artifacts as the screen size goes up from say 19" to 36". You normally compensate for this by moving farther back from the screen for the larger screens.

If you view a large interlace TV in a small room you will see magnified scan lines, dot crawl-color banding and noise from normal NTSC. Delux models remedy this with fancy comb filters and noise reduction circuits. (see http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/vidcomb.htm for NTSC/PAL decoding issues ).

If you get your TV from cable or dbs, then MPeg decoding errors become more visible as screen size goes up. Generally, MPeg will look better as bitrate is improved. For dbs this is set nationwide by the satellite company who will tradeoff bitrate for #channels on a given transponder. They may give more bitrate to a sports or premium movie channel (e.g. ESPN, HBO) vs. a talking head channel (e.g. CNBC).

Cable companies usually distribute to the local cable "head end" with high bitrate MPeg2. Delivery to the home will vary by the bandwidth and sophistication of the local network. Older 550 MHz systems (~90 analog channels) often cram 8 "digital channels" into one analog channel space to get the channel count up, but the result is a poor quality MPeg decode especially when viewed on a large TV. Newer 750 MHz to 1GHz systems allow higher bitrates per channel, more channels (including HDTV, Pay Per View), cable internet, and other services. This is all determined at the local neighborhood level so signal quality can vary for cable.

Everything above applies to a normal interlace NTSC TV. When you add a progressive TV display technology to the mix (e.g. Plasma or LCD), every normal broadcast, cable or satellite signal must be deinterlaced and upscaled to the resolution of the progressive display. Normal cable/sat tuner boxes deliver only interlaced NTSC conversions of the ~500x480 MPeg2. A progressive TV needs to decode and deinterlace every analog input and then upscale the result to the EDTV or HDTV resolution of the display. As you may expect, the result can look quite awful epecially on larger screens.

Enter Digital SD/HD broadcasting and "HD" cable/dbs tuners. Over the air DTV tuners and premium "HD" cable/dbs tuners provide a much higher quality signal to the progressive scan TV over the component analog YPbPr and digital DVI or HDMI outputs. The signal never touches NTSC or PAL and allows component video from the source to the TV. Add to this the SD or HD MPeg2 signals can be delivered in progressive scan mode eliminating the need to locally deinterlace. Likewise, the advanced tuner can provide upscaling to 720x480p, 1280x720p or 1920x1080i. The progressive TV will take one of those inputs and convert it to the display resolution.

DVD players follow a similar model offereing lower quality NTSC/PAL over composite or S-Video connections or with 480i components over YPbPr with the option for progressive 480p at 59.94 frames per second.

So, when upgrading to a new TV, all of the above issues must be optimized to get the best quality signal to the TV. Different TV technologies will perform differently with the various input technologies and should be analyzed for each revevant to your local situation. In most cases, the tuner box features and performance are as important or more important to picture quality than the Progressive TV itself.

Analog NTSC or PAL (composite or S-Video)
SD/HD MPeg2 converted to NTSC or PAL (composite or S-Video)
SD/HD MPeg2 delivered in analog components (interlaced or progressive)
SD/HD MPeg2 delivered as 480i or 480p SD digital components
SD/HD MPeg2 delivered as 720p or 1080i HD digital components