standalone dvd recorder or tv tuner, which one to get?

[stainedbeautie]

I've thought long and hard about this and haven't decided which one would be more convient for me to use or not. They have standalone dvd recorders now that are around $100, but I'm still skeptical about this. I also thought how it would be more convient for me to use a tv tuner, because editing (without waste of blank dvds burnt from the standalone recorder) would be much easier. I'm pretty sure I know I would need more memory since I am only running 256mb. Would an 80gb hard drive be okay, I'm getting another one, so it will actually come to 160gb. I'm looking for some suggestions from anyone who has experience with either.

Relating to a tv tuner:

How much hard drive space would I need?
How much memory can a tv tuner work on?
Would a tv tuner cause damage to my computer after awhile?

thanks in advance.

[lumis]

i'd go with a standalone dvd recorder..

i have the pioneer dvr-225 (same as the 220), and it works like a champ.. as for your concern with wasting dvd's.. i always record to dvd-rw's.. extract to mpeg on the PC, edit, author & burn to dvd-r...

i have a tv tuner card too, but the results from it are shaky at best.. it's okay for viewing tv, but not for recording..

newegg has the pioneer dvd recorder for $160 shipped.. great deal..

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16882117013

[stainedbeautie]

i'd go with a standalone dvd recorder..

i have the pioneer dvr-225 (same as the 220), and it works like a champ.. as for your concern with wasting dvd's.. i always record to dvd-rw's.. extract to mpeg on the PC, edit, author & burn to dvd-r...

i have a tv tuner card too, but the results from it are shaky at best.. it's okay for viewing tv, but not for recording..

newegg has the pioneer dvd recorder for $160 shipped.. great deal..

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16882117013

my limit is $100 or a little more. Don't think I can afford the $160, plus I think dvd-rw are a little pricey as well, or no? I don't buy them, sooo I'll take a look at it though

EDIT: just noticed it only records for -R, I either want +R only or both formats . I know -R is more compatible though with standalone dvd players, but I'm setting up my computer burner to burn both, so the -R wouldn't be a necessary on a standalone. Thinking about getting a Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-150 (1045) tv tuner, but will have to see if a standalone is better or not.

[trhouse]

I still have an Adaptec AVC-2200 which connects to a computer via USB. Before recorders, I was able to capture to a laptop with 64K of RAM and only a 6 GB hard drive. Your system is luxurious by comparison. That said, the recorder is far more convenient to use.

The recorder is a dedicated computer where someone else has selected the software, burner, capture device, and made sure they all play together properly. The card route means you are in charge of bringing it all together and there are no guarantees that what you have in your computer will not create conflicts with what you want to add. Cards except for Firewire devices which normally do not require much in the way of processor resources can tie up the computer so it cannot be used for other purposes during a capture. To this day I still do not know why a certain tape would suddenly lose its audio after 3 hours and 10 minutes or why a capture of the same tape will sometimes have an audio sync problem and the next day the same tape captures without a glitch. I have never had to revisit issues like these in over 500 burns with a recorder. Recorders tend to be more than a capture device added to a computer, they usually have some form of input processing to help with problem tapes.

The recorders weakness is the post capture and commercial tape. The menus are not as nice, chapters cannot be added just where you want them ( unless you use dvd-ram, VR mode which is not very compatible with players, or have a hard drive ), and they will not copy commercial, copyrighted material without some help. Many capture cards can.

[mats.hogberg]

If you want to replace your VCR - go for a DVD recorder (with HDD).
If you want to edit, cut commercials, add menus and stuff - a DVD recorder is only a roundabout way of achieving what's a much more streamlined process using a capture card and your computer.
In the latter case, I'd consider a DVD recorder a serious alternative, if there was some way to transfer captured mpg to the computer without writing it to a DVD-R(W) first - maybe using the network or FireWire.

/Mats

[FulciLives]

Cough up the money for the Pioneer DVD recorder.

That is an amazing price for such a nice DVD recorder.

The Hauppauge WinTV PVR 150 is GARBAGE.

I tried one and it has a lot of issues that affect quality. Definately not worth buying. The Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250 is the model to get if this is what you want but for the money I would get the Pioneer DVD recorder.

BTW the whole idea of using DVD-RW is that you only need a few of them because once you record something you either watch it (then delete it) or you copy it to the computer so you can re-author it to a DVD-R or DVD+R at which point you erase the DVD-RW again.

I bought a 5 pack of DVD-RW discs that cost me $7.77 at WALMART and I've been using the same 5 over and over again for the past couple of months now.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lumis]

exactly what fuci said..

the way i do it is..

record to dvd-rw (either from live transmission or DVR)
extract mpeg from dvd-rw
edit out commercials with womble
author to dvd (with fancy menu's and such if needed)
burn to either dvd-r or dvd+r

erase dvd-rw, rinse & repeat..

i do a football game every week, so what i usually do is set it to the lowest quality setting (6 hours) and record the live transmission while recording it to my DVR.. then i extract the dvd-rw to mpeg, edit out the commercials & determine the extact time.. then i set the record quality to that & re-record the game so i use as much of the dvd-r (or dvd+r) at the end and have the highest quality.

the pioneer is such a good machine, and at that price its unbeatable.

[pepegot1]

Get a Pioneer or JVC DVD Recorder. It improves image quality too.
Edit with VideoRedo.

[trhouse]

If your budget is $100, there are no new $100 recorders that are easy to recommend, but there many capture cards below that price that can do a good job. Go to your left and click on the Capture Cards tab and look for a highly rated unit to fit your budget. There is a steep learning curve to cards. You will need to understand a lot more about the process of capture and need to learn more than the average person knows about the computer too.

I kept my AVC-2200 because it was tested on the thread below and performed as well in the resolution test as many of the better recorders and it is less than $100.

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=279460&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlig...20test&start=0

[Epicurus8a]

lumis and FulciLives are offering great advice. Get the Pioneer and you won't regret it (one with a HDD if possible). I personally know people who have bought 'Brand X' machines and then punched themselves in the face for wasting money on cheap junk that only broke down.

[stainedbeautie]

I appreciate the advice from everyone. Is there a Pioneer recorder out that can burn both +R and -R? I'm partial to +R myself, but can adjust to something new, like -R. I saw a Lite-On dvd recorder for around $140 that can burn both formats, are they any good, because I was seriously considering that one. Keep the suggestions coming .

EDIT: Just realized that it wouldn't matter if I'm using RW and editing afterwards

Suggestions on either of these:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16882101308
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16882101305

if those aren't good, I'll save my pennies for the Pioneer, since that's seems to the winning verdict

[trhouse]

Here are a few comments from Gshelley61 about the Lite-On's.

"Lots has been posted about Lite-On and ilo machines, but primarily concerning the fact they are easily hacked region-free and MV-free.

There are a couple of concerns with them. The front panel analog A/V inputs on some units seem to pick up interference. Their built-in TV tuners are mono, and kind of crappy. They apparently use a form of CBR to encode, rather than hybrid VBR. You can only set the recording quality by the hour... that is, 1 hour, 2 hour, 3 hour, etc. Nothing in between.

However, used strictly as a MPEG2 capturing device... there's no doubt the image quality is competitive with more expensive "name brand" machines."

The Lite-On's do have a good capture quality. A Lite-On 5007 outperformed all the major brands in resolution tests done in the thread I listed previously. The Pioneer 225 recommended by Lumis does not have these issues but I just looked at his link and it is out of stock for the $149.99.

[stainedbeautie]

Their built-in TV tuners are mono, and kind of crappy.

ewww, Mono, lol

You can only set the recording quality by the hour... that is, 1 hour, 2 hour, 3 hour, etc. Nothing in between.

Not really an issue for me. I could deal with that :P

The Pioneer 225 recommended by Lumis does not have these issues but I just looked at his link and it is out of stock for the $149.99.

Maybe it's listed somewhere else, but I'm not sure for that price.

EDIT: I did a search at the normal stores (walmart, best buy, etc.), found nothing. Don't know where else they would carry it The last time I went on "auto notify" for newegg, it took the product almost 1-2 months to come back. Okay, say if, newegg doesn't bring that back anytime soon, is there any other names/brands you would suggest by any chance

[FulciLives]

Using PRICEGRABBER.COM I found the Pioneer 220 for $170 + shipping and the Pioneer 225 for $184 + shipping.

Those two models are pretty much the same.

Stay away from the 233 model.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[trhouse]

I would consider this brand new one on eBay for a buy it now price of $124.95. As "FulciLives" mentioned the 220 and 225 are essentially the same.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneer-DVR-220-S-Slim-DVD-recorder-Player-Chase-Play_W0QQitemZ583...QQcmdZViewItem

[DereX888]

Buy tv tuner only if you'll have a dedicated computer just for entertainment (kind of "media center" with all the toys in it - like capture card etc). Otherwise get standalone recorder with MPEG-4 capabilities, or better yet - a networked standalone recorder.
Example cases:
My parents don't watch anything but what is on their favorite tv channels, and sometimes a DVDs. Dedicated computer was not only useless for them, but too complicated to use, and I quickly got them a standalone recorder. To minimize "disc clutter" around the entertainment center, I replaced their old Pana without HDD for the E95 model with 160gb hdd build-in. No more DVD-RAMs clutter around
My bro watch lot of crap from discs in various formats, record tv shows like Battlestar Galactica etc, and love to watch on tv any crap from web as well. He had networked standalone recorder which proved inadequate due to inability to play some media formats and display subtitles, and I had to build him simple "PVR" - dedicated computer with tv-out, remote, capture card, dvdr-drive and connected to web.

Personally I use my dedicated computer way more often than standalone recorder, but I don't record tv shows for my own collection anymore, so your case might be different.

[pchan]

I tried a dedicated PC with TV card for almost a year. It worked pretty well in the beginning and I was able to do scheduled recording. With an X10 remote, it was as good as DVD recorder. Then, it started to fail on the schedule recording... I was really pissed for missing my shows.

DVD recorder now is cheap and with scheduled recording, you will never miss a show. My advice, get one with a hard disk. Worth every penny.

[spiritgumm]

Do ALL the Pioneers have that Flex recording mode(ie Panasonic) up to 160 min., assuming that's what the "32 step, 5 minute interval" means? What is the reason to stay away from model 233? Is the picture dropout problem when dubbing from vcr related to a specific model?
I see the digital-to-analog conversion spec is 10-bit/54 MHz - is this is for both playback and recording? If so, does it compare adequately with Panny 12-bit DAC?

[DereX888]

I tried a dedicated PC with TV card for almost a year. It worked pretty well in the beginning and I was able to do scheduled recording. With an X10 remote, it was as good as DVD recorder. Then, it started to fail on the schedule recording... I was really pissed for missing my shows.

DVD recorder now is cheap and with scheduled recording, you will never miss a show. My advice, get one with a hard disk. Worth every penny.

Not entirely true.
I used to record plenty of shows for myself and entire family back when standalone recorders and computers were more expensive, and I can testify that at least once a month, if not often, something was missed or lost due to schedule changes. If you wanna record something from tv, specially from non-prime or reruns scheduling, better do it manually if you dont want to miss a thing.

I dont know what could "started to fail" if you really had everything well set. My current PVR'puter is running since 2001 for months at the time, being interrupted only by power failures or my semiannual "maintenances" when I apply all current windows patches and updates (they always need reboot).
And for the compatibility with any past, existing, and future formats - Im sorry, but no standalone machine will ever be even close to a dedicated computer.

But it all boils down to what is its purpose, as I've gave the examples of my Family. Different people have different needs.

[trhouse]

For information about the Pioneer's and other recorders, try Don Pedro's manuals link below,

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=193270

The Pioneer's manual MN modes ( 1-32 ) are not all five minute intervals. They are for between 65 and 110 minutes record time. The intervals get as long as two hours. For example, MN3 is 600 minutes, MN2 is 720 minutes.

The 233 is the only unit without MN modes that I know of and it does not have any of the input adjustment controls that all the other models have.

Tests done at this link on a large number of brands including Pioneers ( new and old ) and Panasonics with the 12 A/D seem to indicate that A/D size is not always the main determinant of resolution. Other items like input filtering can have a greater effect.

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=279460

P.S. I happen to agree that recorders do not always work properly on the timer either. My Pioneer 531 has several times failed to start recording on the timer even though it is set to record at the same time almost every day.

[FulciLives]

The only time I had a failure with a time recording on my Pioneer DVR-531H-s was when I used the TV guide EPG thing. For some reason it started the recording exactly 1 hour late.

Never have had a problem with manual timer setting.

As for the Pioneer A/D issue I would not worry about it. Pioneer DVD players always look better than Panasonic DVD players.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[trhouse]

I am only doing manual recording but a little differently. I record off the L1 input and while the EPG is on, the 531 does not have any antenna or cable feed. It is set up to record weekly at the same time each day but about once each month it will not start.

[edit] Now that I think about it, it is scheduled to record twice every day, once in the morning and once in the afternoon. I do not recall it ever failing to record in the afternoon only in the morning.

[spiritgumm]

You gotta create an account with Pioneer before you can download their manuals - kind of annoying - so I appreciate you explaining the deficiencies on model 233, and the MN recording mode.
I had previously checked the post comparing different recorders. I couldn't see much difference between all the video stills. For me, differences are more noticeable in motion. From what posters said, it sounded like the newer Pioneers with HDD produced a softer picture.

[DereX888]

I am only doing manual recording but a little differently. I record off the L1 input and while the EPG is on, the 531 does not have any antenna or cable feed. It is set up to record weekly at the same time each day but about once each month it will not start.

[edit] Now that I think about it, it is scheduled to record twice every day, once in the morning and once in the afternoon. I do not recall it ever failing to record in the afternoon only in the morning.

its OT, but quite interesting (my apologies to OP!)
Ive never heard of such problem, can you shed some light, more detils?

[trhouse]

I prefer not to go off topic either. Suffice it say, I am not entirely sure this is a recorder problem so I have the 531 running off an uninterruptible power supply to test if line power might be behind this.

[TBoneit]

FWIW although I have a decent setup, canopus advc-100, 3 ghz cpu, 100's of gigs a disk space, I am still doing all my VHS to DVD with a Pioneer 531h since it has good control over the input settings.

My current setup is nice JVC VCR to TBC to Pioneer 531h, set up for best resultsfrom the tape. adjust brightness, dark level, sharpness, color,color intensity, noise reduction etc. as needed and record, title the show on the hard drive, edit, make chapters, burn.

pretty quick and decent results. I did one tape where the people looked more like martians. Uing the Pioneers's settings I adjusted the flesh tones to look natural, sharpenedthe picture spiffed up the brightness a little and voila nice DVD.

cheers

[FulciLives]

No doubt that a stand alone DVD recorder with a built-in HDD is nice, such as the 531/533 Pioneer models (which are exactly the same but the 531 has no FIREWIRE input whereas the 533 does have a FIREWIRE input).

However let's not get too carried away! We have a "budget" of $100.00 and we are already pushing that to $150 if not beyond!

Anyways the Pioneer 233 is the newest version of the Pioneer DVD recorder with no HDD. The previous 220/225 were both pretty much identical to each other with the model difference being due to the fact that they were sold at different stores that didn't want to price match each other so Pioneer simply made the same machine but with 2 different model numbers.

As has been mentioned the 220/225 feature multiple recording modes and have input adjustments for things like sharpness and color saturation and noise reduction etc. whereas the 233 has fixed recording modes (I believe 1, 2, 4 then 6 and/or 8 hours with nothing in-between those) which is very limited plus it does not have all the input adjustments. I think it is also lacking an input but still has 2 inputs (whereas the 220/225 I think have 3 sets of inputs each).

Although the 220/225 models are "old" they can still be found for good prices which are often less than the "new" 233 so now you know which to get for sure!

If you decide to go with the computer solution then I suggest the WinTV PVR 250 which can be found at newegg for $135.00 and to find it search for the "Hauppauge 980". I thought of buying this myself once not-to-long ago and newegg has the best price ... plus they always seem to have it in stock which is good as it is hard-to-find these days since the WinTV PVR 150 is the "replacement" model (but it sucks).

Another option that works well is the ADS Instant TV Deluxe USB (model USBAV705) which is a USB 2.0 external capture device that, like the Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250, is a MPEG hardware encoder. NewEgg has this for $149.00 but if you use PRICEGRABBER.COM you can find it as cheap as $100.

The only really "big" issue with the Hauppauge and ADS is that they capture to MP2 audio so you should convert that to AC-3 before burning to a DVD recordable. This is an "added" step that can take some time. The DVD recorders all use either PCM audio (for 1 hour or less recordings) or AC-3 audio (for recordings over 1 hour) and PCM/AC-3 is much better than MP2 audio both in terms of quality and in terms of DVD player compatibility. However if you use 384kbps MP2 and then convert it to PCM/AC-3 you should get pretty decent sounding audio.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
Another thing I should make a note of ... the stand alone DVD recorders all recognize copy protection. Thus some commercial store bought VHS videos cannot be copied. The Hauppauge and ADS units both ignore copy protection but the Hauppauge doesn't like a lot of VHS sources if they aren't of good quality (very stable picture with no drop outs etc.) whereas the ADS seems to work really well with VHS as a source. However the ADS does have some "heat" issues but this can be fixed "easily" by lifting the USB box up off the table it is on (with make shift "legs") and putting a (very small) fan on it. I had mine about 4 inches off of the table with a 4" or 6" fan on it and it worked wonders with no heat issues.

[stainedbeautie]

No doubt that a stand alone DVD recorder with a built-in HDD is nice, such as the 531/533 Pioneer models (which are exactly the same but the 531 has no FIREWIRE input whereas the 533 does have a FIREWIRE input).

However let's not get too carried away! We have a "budget" of $100.00 and we are already pushing that to $150 if not beyond!

Anyways the Pioneer 233 is the newest version of the Pioneer DVD recorder with no HDD. The previous 220/225 were both pretty much identical to each other with the model difference being due to the fact that they were sold at different stores that didn't want to price match each other so Pioneer simply made the same machine but with 2 different model numbers.

As has been mentioned the 220/225 feature multiple recording modes and have input adjustments for things like sharpness and color saturation and noise reduction etc. whereas the 233 has fixed recording modes (I believe 1, 2, 4 then 6 and/or 8 hours with nothing in-between those) which is very limited plus it does not have all the input adjustments. I think it is also lacking an input but still has 2 inputs (whereas the 220/225 I think have 3 sets of inputs each).

Although the 220/225 models are "old" they can still be found for good prices which are often less than the "new" 233 so now you know which to get for sure!

If you decide to go with the computer solution then I suggest the WinTV PVR 250 which can be found at newegg for $135.00 and to find it search for the "Hauppauge 980". I thought of buying this myself once not-to-long ago and newegg has the best price ... plus they always seem to have it in stock which is good as it is hard-to-find these days since the WinTV PVR 150 is the "replacement" model (but it sucks).

Another option that works well is the ADS Instant TV Deluxe USB (model USBAV705) which is a USB 2.0 external capture device that, like the Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250, is a MPEG hardware encoder. NewEgg has this for $149.00 but if you use PRICEGRABBER.COM you can find it as cheap as $100.

The only really "big" issue with the Hauppauge and ADS is that they capture to MP2 audio so you should convert that to AC-3 before burning to a DVD recordable. This is an "added" step that can take some time. The DVD recorders all use either PCM audio (for 1 hour or less recordings) or AC-3 audio (for recordings over 1 hour) and PCM/AC-3 is much better than MP2 audio both in terms of quality and in terms of DVD player compatibility. However if you use 384kbps MP2 and then convert it to PCM/AC-3 you should get pretty decent sounding audio.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
Another thing I should make a note of ... the stand alone DVD recorders all recognize copy protection. Thus some commercial store bought VHS videos cannot be copied. The Hauppauge and ADS units both ignore copy protection but the Hauppauge doesn't like a lot of VHS sources if they aren't of good quality (very stable picture with no drop outs etc.) whereas the ADS seems to work really well with VHS as a source. However the ADS does have some "heat" issues but this can be fixed "easily" by lifting the USB box up off the table it is on (with make shift "legs") and putting a (very small) fan on it. I had mine about 4 inches off of the table with a 4" or 6" fan on it and it worked wonders with no heat issues.

thanks for all that information. I decided on getting the standalone first, and maybe after awhile I'll see how the tv tuner works out. Maybe I'll get it just to be familiar with it, in case I need it for something, who knows. Yeah, and my budget is tight, but I would love a HDD one, maybe in the future. It's better to test the waters first anyways. I'm also looking for a larger hard drive and more memory, so I have to split things up and only get what I can manage to right now . Also, I won't be copying any copyrighted vhs anyways, most of the stuff I have is from tv itself. The vhs I have as been released to dvd anyways

[FulciLives]

What model stand alone DVD recorder did you or do you plan on getting?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[stainedbeautie]

What model stand alone DVD recorder did you or do you plan on getting?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

the one that was first mentioned if I can (the Pioneer 225). I'll see how long it takes for newegg to get it back though. I don't need it exactally this minute, so I can wait a little while :P .