SVCD overated??

[bilbogod]

Having ripped Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon on to two Cdr's, I fail to see any overiding reason as to why I should choose SVCD over VCD. My eyesight is perfectly good yet I fail to see any major differences. If anything I have spent most of my day cursing at why despite numerous tinkering, my SVCD efforts on the fast motion sequences look totally "shi@e". I'm referring in particular to the "extras" on the DVD some of which have been very rapidly edited. On both occasions I have used standard settings within TMPGenc (my player not being XVCD compatible) only to find that the SVCD extras stuff is shaking like a leaf when I watch it on my telly.

I realise this is bound to raise more sweat and passion than two skunks getting it on, but keep it to constructive advice and criticsm....

[salvius]

I find SVCDs one circumstance where TMPGEnc fails. Use Cinema Craft's multipass VBR. Looks VERY good. Secondly, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon uses many fast motion scenes, as well as high-detail motion scenes like forests etc. This is usually tough to encode. I'm guessing you're using multipass with your TMPGEnc. What is the average bitrate? I think this movie is probably better suited to three CDs.

[bilbogod]

Well my settings are MPEG2 480x576 25fps CQ65 (Bitrate 2520). Motion search precision set to normal. This is constant quality not variable bitrate. The strange thing is the whole movie came out fine. The problem lies in the behind the scenes extras and trailers. Looks like these have been edited very, very quickly and are perhaps whats causing the problems. When I play these back (they are on a third cdr), the picture shakes. It's possible, I admit I haven't checked that the cdr is a duff one. I could try burning again.. I also have DVD2SVCD that has that cinemacraft encoder - but I've never tried using it.

[rcbax]

Change the bitrate to 1800 Constant.
The templatge is variable bitrate
This is what I had to do for my Philipps.
SVCD is noticably better for me.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-12-20 11:08:29, bilbogod wrote:
Having ripped Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon on to two Cdr's, I fail to see any overiding reason as to why I should choose SVCD over VCD. My eyesight is perfectly good yet I fail to see any major differences. If anything I have spent most of my day cursing at why despite numerous tinkering, my SVCD efforts on the fast motion sequences look totally "shi@e". I'm referring in particular to the "extras" on the DVD some of which have been very rapidly edited. On both occasions I have used standard settings within TMPGenc (my player not being XVCD compatible) only to find that the SVCD extras stuff is shaking like a leaf when I watch it on my telly.

I realise this is bound to raise more sweat and passion than two skunks getting it on, but keep it to constructive advice and criticsm....
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

[bilbogod]

Will that work on an SVCD player yeah? I don't have XVCD capabilities...

[Xesdeeni]

I've noticed that lots of extra scenes are actually encoded at only 240 lines. I assume they are using 352x240 instead of 720x480, which is a valid DVD format. If you take a 352x240 and scale it up to 480x480, you are essentially duplicating 240 lines. That might account for the "shaking" you say you are seeing.

If that's not the case, you might also want to be sure the fields are not reversed.

Xesdeeni

[bilbogod]

You might be on to something here. Whats the easiest way to check the resolution?? Also whilst this is encoding in TMPGenc, I can see horizontal lines appear as soon as the fight scenes occur...

[bilbogod]

Hmm just checked the stream (info file) says its 720 x 576...

[bilbogod]

I'm trying to encode again with TMPGenc but keep getting the following error message "Write error occured at address 004028a9 of module TMPGENC.EXE with 00882E3C"
Anyone heard of this??

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: bilbogod on 2001-12-20 12:47:11 ]</font>

[JJamez]

I don't rip a lot of movies, but I've found the 'Extras' are almost always interlaced whereas movies rarely are (unless its a 'full screen' version or similar).

Improperly converting an interlaced source is the only time I've encountered the shakiness you mention.

[sommersby]

this has been discussed many times here before, what it boils down to is this, any bitrate lower than 2000 will yeild poorer results than vcd, the reason being is you are capturing twice the size with fewer bits per. Put it this way, your bitrate represent a certain number of marbles, put them on a plate, now double the size of the plate, which is going to have more holes, unless you add alot more marbles. That is why svcd shows alot of blockiness unless the bit rate is high enough to cover it, at a higher bitrate it is great, but don't think you are going to put a 2 hour movie on 2 cd's and get a better pisture than vcd 2.0. on three, maybe.

[bilbogod]

My bitrate is higher than 2000. I'm using the Pal SVCD template in TMPGenc which is set at 2520k/bit per second. I'll try changing the source to interlace.
As for differences in visual quality (forget XVCD here) I'd bet money on it my friends couldn't tell the difference unless I told them first. I have a 19inch t.v. set 4:3

[nfl2k2]

If you use dvd2svcd, it will do all the work for you in about 10-15 hours with a 3/4 pass vbr. You can barely tell the difference betwean the dvd and the burned svcd on my 120$ 19' tv.

[salvius]

I agree that the problem here could be interlacing if it is just the extras. Usually, these too should work fine (just not on the computer), but improper deinterlacing or similar stuff might explain your problem.

[JHebert]

Bilbogod, you said you are using CQ 65 with maximum 2520, this is a form of vbr encoding and your average bitrate is probably less than 2000, so what sommersby said about bitrate vs resolution may be part of your quality problem. If your player supports it, you could try 352x576 instead of 480x576 at the same bitrate. The slight decrease in resolution detail will be offset by better motion quality because of more bits/pixel.
However, the fact that you are seeing more of a problem in the 'extras' could definitely be a deinterlacing or field order problem since these sections are often interlaced video.

[Nelson37]

If you have DVD2SVCD and CCe, USE IT! The output will blow away your best VCD. I have tried the sample VCDs and home made, both were watchable but not good enough. SVCD can look crappy, too, but a four-pass VBR with CCE at AVG 1800-2400 will rival DVD. Sure it takes more disk space, and is less compatible, and a little more difficult to make. Whaddya want, egg in your beer?
the "lines" problem gotta be interlacing, maybe some wierd TeleCine for TV, who knows?

[homerpez]

I used to make VCD's. Then XVCD's. SeVCD's (known as CVCD's lately, though you can get murdered for saying things like that), ... then I discovered CCE, and multipass encoding.

I discovered, miraculously, I could do WHOLE 90-min movies, 128k audio, use full SVCD resolution (480x480), and it looked at least twice as good as a comparable VCD!

Whe whole difference is CCE. TMPGEnc, try as is might, doesn't even come close, most visibly noticable on MPEG-2 encoding.

CCE is known for not producing "blocks", rather making the picture "dirty" instead. When you playback an SVCD on an analog TV (like most of us without stock portfolios and trust funds) , "dirty" is invisible, while TMPGEnc's blocks stick out like a sore thumb.

I guarantee you if you encode an "SeVCD" with TMPGEnc, and an SVCD from the same source using CCE, you'll drop dead and if revived, go with CCE.

If DVD2SVCD includes CCE, well then it seems a no-brainer to me.

Your SVCD will be sharper than your VCD, even with a lower bitrate.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: homerpez on 2001-12-20 22:07:12 ]</font>

[sommersby]

dvd2svcd is a great program and produces better than vcd output, my problem is getting it to work all the time, about half the time I get up in the morning and find it stopped somewhere, usually in cce, a very touchy program. The other reason I don't use it all the time is player compatability, I have 1 player, a pioneer, which works great on everything, my apex will handle most svcd's, my other two players and my parents player, who borrow alot of movies won't play svcd, something to keep in mind if you loan out or take your movies somewhere else in the house or on the road to watch.

[sommersby]

Just another quick point, I have followed kailes dvd guide since I first started doing this, over a year ago, and have always been very happy with the results, most people when they walk into my main viewing room with a 60" big screen playing a vcd from a dvd rip think it's a dvd, true, after you sit down and watch a liitle bit you can see the difference, but I think it would take alot of carefull observation to tell the difference between an svcd and vcd from a dvd rip. The biggest advantage of svcd is the addition of surround sound.

[Manny_j]

i have a phillips dvd703 and encode svcds they look better then when i encode vcds i use cbr of usually 2496 and high quality but some cds have a glitch in them like when i playback the movie it will pause for 1 second then resume again it happens a few times in every movie
anyone know how to correct this glitch?
is it because the quality is to high?
and will a 3d card (tnt2 32mb) speed the encoding time up?

[bilbogod]

O.k Thanks for all the replies folks. I'm gonna give this DVD2SVCD a run for its money.. Anyone got a link for a newbie guide to it (he he) - these things always look kind of scary when you've never used them before....
One final point, I never did get to burn further SVCD efforts out on to CDR beyond the first one. due to the error message I peviously mentioned. When switching back to vcd, this went away... Strange world..

[bilbogod]

One more thing... How does the author of DVD2SVCD get away with incorporating CCE ($3000+ software) for free...?? He asks for donations as well; so is this to pay for his bail money ?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: bilbogod on 2001-12-21 05:17:15 ]</font>

[ngnr]

Hmm. I don't think he does. His site specifically says it is not included.

[JJamez]

I have to agree with Sommersby about CCE - I tried it and never could get it to work correctly on my system. It would work a couple times, then not work, etc.

Waking up to a frozen CCE and failed encode, and then having to do it all over again just led me back to TMPG... If TMPG is one thing, it's stable - at least on my box.

[nidoran]

the best way to not let it freeze is to have a good input stream.
sounds "duh", but is true. if you use TMPGEnc first to encode it to HUFFYUV AVI, you lose zero quality, and at the same time you create a fully compatible stream.

only problem with it is, it makes HUGE files. so if you aint got no NTFS partition on a big drive, never mind it. A space-like cheaper solution is to encode with divx4 100% pic quality instead; usually it makes the movie 4 gigs. only you get a few artifacts in trade.

last solution i can give you for that is to save a TMPGEnc Project, and use the VFAPI to create the AVI file. with this you can also use the de-noise filter in tmpgenc and such. have fun with it.

(to stick to the question: i got a big TV so i kinda need 480/576 lines)

[salvius]

CCE does blow away TMPGEnc with quality. Usually works fine. And, no, CCE is not incorporated into dvd2svcd.

[poopyhead]

SVCD has higher resolution than VCD, which is very important. Also, keep in mind tmpgenc and SVCD requires higher bitrate to work. Don't complain about SVCD and tmpgenc quality when u try to use low, crappy bitrates. Also, you should always use VBR, not CBR. If you decide to use CQ_VBR, don't bother setting the CQ any higher than 75 because higher CQ will basically mean you making your rip a CBR at the max bitrate you set your CQ_VBR to.

---> Also, motion search accuracy to HIGH QUALITY (SLOW) is a must. If you set it lower than that, don't complain about the quality during high action scenes.

[bilbogod]

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Why does mine have CCE 2.5 inside it then??

[salvius]

Included is probably a demo version which will create a watermark on bottom right of the screen.

[bilbogod]

O.k. I haven't tried it yet so I don't know, but I do remember there being an uproar over a previous post that alledged that this was a cracked copy. No one ever clarified this except to say that it is integral to the software. I'll let you know as soon as I've worked out how to use DVD2SVCD properly. On the subject of CCE has does one get the free demo version to convert mpeg2 vobs to SVCD/VCD. From what I've read at the moment, it only seems to handle AVI's and Quicktime..