Making 2hr.+ DVDs

[Mercutio]

I like to record several weeks of my favorite TV programs off my PVR, to store on DVD. And I've been doing that for a while.

Generally, I use Ulead DVD Moviefactory. I have versions 2 and 3. I also have DVD Workshop 2, from the same company.

The Ulead tools that I generally like very well, seem to barf on DVDs over two hours in length. I can set the bit rate of my captured video to something low enough that I should mathematically be able to get four and a half hours of TV onto one 4.7GB disc, and tell the Ulead tools not to alter complaint MPEGs - my MPEGs are compliant, or at least the Ulead programs don't try to convert shorter ones, but MovieFactory will tell me I don't have enough disc space (working with blank Verbatim DVD+Rs and, on some machines with nearly a terabyte of free space on my scratch arrays). Workshop works for a while and then tells me that the process has been aborted (I didn't abort them!), but only on discs longer than two hours.

I've played with the various DVD templates that are built into the Ulead tools, made my own that should exactly fit the bitrate and audio properties I was using, tried telling these programs not to alter my compliant MPEGs, tried working from captured AVIs that the program would have to convert... and I've still got nothing.

I've had this problem for, oh, three years or more, and I've pretty much just treated this two hour limit as a limitation of the software, but I'm wondering if anyone else out there has run into the same thing, or has a workaround for it.

For the record, I can reproduce this problem on at least a dozen computers. Maybe it's just me, but if it is, it's happening on just about ever kind of computer I have access to.

--

And while I'm posting...

What I'd really like to have, if Ulead is a sub-optimal tool, is a program that allows:
1. Support for encoding non-MPEG (e.g. AVI or DV) video to MPEG - TMPEGenc DVD Author fails here
2. Longer-than-two-hour movies - Ulead's products seem to fail here
3. 16:9 support - which is why I bought DVD Workshop
4. The ability to work in a single program - free tools are nice and everything, but I'd rather do my work in just one program than spread it over five or six different tools

Does such a beast exist?[/i]

[harley2ride]

Try creating the video files on your HD, and use DVDSHRINK to shrink it down for you.

[mats.hogberg]

...or use some real encoder that lets you specify what bitrate to use, enabling you to fit how much (or little) you want on a disc. What's the problem with using multiple tools? Would you build a house with a Swiss Army Knife?

/Mats

[Mercutio]

What's the problem with using multiple tools? Would you build a house with a Swiss Army Knife?

/Mats

Honestly, the multiple tools thing doesn't fit very well with the way I use my computers. I have 16 machines, and as I do different things I move around between them. I've found that when I'm doing non-scripted work with multiple tools I get a little confused about where I am with whichever project I'm working on.

harley2ride, the Ulead programs don't ever get so far as actually making a 2 hour+ video, ever. One would have to actually finish encoding something before I could shrink it.

WinDVD creator is another tool that I have used. I've found it to be exceptionally buggy and poorly documented. It doesn't work with 16:9 video, and it crashes a lot. All of which is unfortunate, because it will make longer videos.

[snafu099]

I use Ulead MovieFactory 2.5 with mpg files from either a ADS IDVD-2 or Compro VideoMate Live and have no problem putting 4 hrs on dvd

My capture settings for each file are the same and such that the combined clips will fit on dvd without re-encode

I think Ulead can require up to 3 times the hard disk free space for working temp files as what your project is. There are settings within Ulead to change the working drive/folder

[slacker]

And while I'm posting...

What I'd really like to have, if Ulead is a sub-optimal tool, is a program that allows:
1. Support for encoding non-MPEG (e.g. AVI or DV) video to MPEG - TMPEGenc DVD Author fails here
2. Longer-than-two-hour movies - Ulead's products seem to fail here
3. 16:9 support - which is why I bought DVD Workshop
4. The ability to work in a single program - free tools are nice and everything, but I'd rather do my work in just one program than spread it over five or six different tools

Does such a beast exist?

Mercutio,

Try Sony Vegas+DVD Movie Studio Platinum ($130). It does all the things you want your software to do AND it does it all EXTREMELY well. If you know anything about computers and software on a developer's level, you will appreciate the package.

Or you could try Vegas+DVD Architect ($650) which is the prosumer version. It works EXACTLY like the package above but with more features.

Good luck!

[Mercutio]

I know plenty about computers.

As I recall from work with DVD MovieStudio, it only output in MPEG2 format, rather than something handy like a VIDEO_TS folder or an ISO image; to author a disc required additional software. Has that changed in some newer version?

snafu, most of the machines I work on have somewhere around 1TB of free space on the array I use as working space for video editing. I don't think free space is a problem.

[FulciLives]

snafu, most of the machines I work on have somewhere around 1TB of free space on the array I use as working space for video editing. I don't think free space is a problem.

Just a thought but I think ulead always puts the TEMP space on the main "C:" drive. Maybe you have 1TB of free space but is it on the main "C:" drive?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[slacker]

Mercutio,

The new version (6) of Vegas Movie Studio Platinum renders in several formats, i.e. MPEG-1, MPEG-2, Quicktime (.mov), RealMedia (.rm), Video For Windows (.avi), Windows Media Video (.wmv).

The package comes with DVD Architect which authors out to a dvd, video file folders, or an iso image, and comes with a "Fit to Disc" option for re-compression if necessary.

I recommend downloading the trial. I don't know what more you could want for $130.

[Mercutio]

Just a thought but I think ulead always puts the TEMP space on the main "C:" drive. Maybe you have 1TB of free space but is it on the main "C:" drive?

As a habit, I move all of \Documents and Settings off of the partition where Windows is installed using a Microsoft tool called linkd, in case I need to blow away my Windows install for whatever reason. Since your %TEMP% environment variable (which is what I assume it uses) is normally set to Docs&Settings\username\local settings\temp, it's safe to say that I do in fact that amount of free space.

snafu,
Ulead DVD Moviefactory 3 captures directly to MPEG2 by default and still doesn't let me make 120 minute+ DVDs, even when I manually set the MPEG bitrate with their (kinda lame) capture tool to something painfully low like 1500kbps/128k MP3 audio (which ought to give me something like four hours of video on a DVD).

Anyway, I'm downloading Vegas as I'm typing this. I'll give that a try.

[p_l]

I routinely make 3 or 4-hour DVD's with DVD Workshop 2. But first I encode with TMPGEnc Xpress.

[lordsmurf]

Honestly, the multiple tools thing doesn't fit very well with the way I use my computers.

Then you're using your computers incorrectly. What this says to me is "I cannot be bothered with doing real work, I need something that will just do everything for me". Well, too bad. If you want to not have problems, then you need to use proper methods. An "all in one" tool is NOT a proper method.

Your MPEG files need to be ready in advance, and compliant, prior to the authoring software. Do not use DVD Shrink ever. Make your files the correct size the first time through.

I routintely make discs anywhere from 1-4 hours long, using DVDWS2. The software is fine, if you treat it as an authoriong application, and not some sort of magic "do everything" software. That just doesn't work. Not with any software (unless you are satisfied with low quality results).

If this is too much work, invest in a DVD recorder. Just hit the record button like you would on a VCR.

[Mercutio]

Then you're using your computers incorrectly. What this says to me is "I cannot be bothered with doing real work, I need something that will just do everything for me".

Bullshit. It's 2005. These tools should be mature by now. Ever seen iMovie? iMovie does everything I'd want to do in one handy, dandy application. Too bad it's an Apple program.
I'm not particularly interested in changing my workflow from "Start a long process on a computer, walk away for a couple hours, come back, start another long process" to "start a shorter process, have my PCs sit idle because the task only took 15 minutes, come back in a couple hours, start another 15 minute process". That's not improving my work flow, and that's not how I want to use the machines that I have access to.

[lordsmurf]

Bullshit. It's 2005.

It may be 2005, but this year is still bound by the laws of reality, not fiction. What you want is a fairy tale tool. The code required for one piece of software to "do everything" always results in buggy software that outputs low quality.

The magic tool you are imagining would require a massive piece of software that clogs GB's of RAM, clogs the CPU, is hundreds of MB in size, and costs thousands of dollars. Right now, those sort of resources (CPU, RAM, etc) simply do not exist in that capacity.

I'm all for software that caters to my laziness, but video is one topic where that just isn't going to happen if I expect to get quality results. You are seeing the limitation of that "all in one" method. So you have to either adapt (use better methods) or just live with it (deal with low quality or constrained options).

[Mercutio]

What, exactly, is so hard about making an application that can cap, trim, encode and author? There are a number of programs that do that now, and there have been programs that can do that for years... just not as well as I would like. iMovie is the best example since it actually works as advertised, but Ulead Moviefactory has been around since at least 2002, so by now one might hope it or some similar PC-based tool would have reached maturity.

When I started copying videos to CDs (usually to watch MPEG1 movies or later divx AVIs on my laptop) way back in 1997 or, I could accept needing to use three or four different processing steps to go from capture to a useful final package. Now I'm less willing to tolerate such a thing. I have a great deal more money than time to screw around. You can't tell me I'm the only person in the world who wants to make the occasional two hour and one minute DVD, as simply as possible.

Why not a set top? First of all, disc compatibility tends to be lousy. Second, I haven't seen one that'll handle 16x9. Third, I do want some editing capability; as far as I know there aren't any DVD recorders that can do more than trim video.

The Demo version of Vegas/MovieStudio is pretty neat as an editor and renderer, particularly since I could in theory set up a little network rendering farm. Anyone know why it can't just invoke DVD architect and write to a DVD?

[lordsmurf]

iMovie is a piece of crap with limited options and limited encoder settings. You're asking for a powerful program but using a piece of mediocre junk as the example. The PC equivalent to iMovie is probably something like neoDVD or Sonic MyDVD.

If you truly have more money than time, pay somebody else to do all this if it's such an inconvenience (like a family member). Or wait until the tv shows are released on DVD.

Discs from DVD recorders are DVD-Video compliant, assuming you don't make a mistake and use VR mode (which is only semi compliant). And then a number of recorders support 16:9 if fed 16:9 source. Of course, almost all of your sources are going to be 4:3 anyway.

[slacker]

Mercutio,

Vegas can cap, trim, encode and author and, lo and behold, the engine of this BEAST is on par with the best of them (Adobe, Ulead). Vegas is a great piece of code. Relatively speaking, it is new which means it is NOT carrying around any legacy code from ten years ago. That is what makes Intervideo and Ulead and Pinnacle products so damn slow and cumbersome. They WON'T re-write their code. It reminds me of the legacy code running on mainframes prior to y2k.

You can write a macro (remember that word?) using VB Script or whatever to auto-invoke DVD Architect to do the burning for you. It should be able to do an ISO burn for you in single movie mode. If you can't or don't have the time, I will give it a try. I could use that feature myself. Sounds interesting! I want Sidekick back!

[the * dude]

umm ya, tmpeg dvd authour is only a authoring prog... u need to create mpgs using tmpeg enc, this will create from avi's etc & encode in 16:9, also get 4++ hrs & authour with dvd author for simple menus!!! 8)

[FulciLives]

I found this thread a bit "late" ... in other words not much I can add at this point other than to say ... I totally agree with the comments made by LordSmurf

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[slacker]

Mercutio,

You may also want to take a look at the new Adobe Elements 2.0. It looks like the improvements are considerable, and it handles the entire production stream as well.

[Mercutio]

I found this thread a bit "late" ... in other words not much I can add at this point other than to say ... I totally agree with the comments made by LordSmurf

And I think that the comments that you and LordSmurf have been extremely unhelpful and counter productive. You've made assumptions about what I might actually know or what I have asked for, rather than simply answering my question. I did not ask for your editorial comments.

Thank you, slacker, for pointing me to Vegas, which I was not aware of and which I have purchased. I'm really more of a Unix guy for programming, so if I can't figure out a decent way to programmatically invoke DVD Architect, I'll probably actually just pass my output on to dvdauthor on a Linux machine, which looks easy enough. I'll lose the ability to do menus but at least I'll have a good editor and an encoder that does what it's supposed to do.

[lordsmurf]

It need be mentioned that DVD Architect software has a number of bugs and has several severe limitations (the most obvious one being SINGLE VTS only authoring).

Vegas is an NLE. It's not meant for capturing (although it can do it), and in fact it can be heavy on resources much like Adobe Premiere, resulting in massive dropped frames. CPU and RAM requirements to BOTH load a large program like this AND capture does not really exist.

Plus Vegas and Architect are two separate pieces of software, not one. So it still involves a few steps.

[slacker]

First let me say there is a HUGE difference between an all-in-one program and an all-in-one set of tools. Mercutio, I think what you are asking for is an all-in-one set of tools, NOT an all-in-one program. Having said that…

It need be mentioned that DVD Architect software has a number of bugs and has several severe limitations (the most obvious one being SINGLE VTS only authoring).

All software has bugs! What are the ones you have found in DVD Architect 3? Undoubtedly I've missed some! SINGLE VTS authoring can be a limitation to the pro who relies on Multi VTS when designing their DVDs. Something which one day I would like to try! However, Multi VTS is NOT a requirement for producing outstanding DVDs generally. For Multi VTS, DVD Lab Pro or DVD Workshop anyone?

Vegas is an NLE. It's not meant for capturing (although it can do it), and in fact it can be heavy on resources much like Adobe Premiere, resulting in massive dropped frames. CPU and RAM requirements to BOTH load a large program like this AND capture does not really exist.

Capturing in Vegas is actually done by a standalone program which is called up and executed through the Vegas program interface. It is really not a part of Vegas (the program), but field tested and tightly integrated into the Vegas product by the Vegas team. The capture app takes about 14MB of RAM. BTW, I have experienced no dropped frames to date using the Vegas capture program and have experienced comparatively low resource usage. (It goes without saying that I would never capture and edit at the same time for obvious reasons.) Vegas is a very well-written multi-threaded app. (I do like and use WinDV for capture on occasion, WinDV being more forgiving during analog / digital pass thru.)

Plus Vegas and Architect are two separate pieces of software, not one. So it still involves a few steps.

Vegas+DVD consists of 3 separate applications with 30 separate linked application libraries from ONE company, tightly integrated with one another which, by the way, can be an asset rather than a liability. Standardized shared code, common interfaces, and rigorous cross-application testing can help PREVENT minor to huge headaches down the road, and make the entire process more productive and enjoyable. If I need to “go there”, you have never been a member of a large scale IT development team.

Mercutio, it ALWAYS seems to come down to how much money you have to burn, which interface you are MOST comfortable with, what level of functionality you require, and what is MOST compatible with your current configuration (or existing investments).

All capture software is mated with editing software is mated with authoring software. This fact is sometimes clearly spelled out by the company or single developer, and sometimes it is only implied. Then there is the UTILITY software which exists to fill holes in others’ products (such as my use of WinDV). Someone should really do a features matrix across all products. I don’t believe it exists at this time. Anyone?

I know some Unix guys (which I am NOT). I’ll inquire with them as to how they would automate or “script” this in their environments. I’m only a VB guy!

Happy hunting!

[lordsmurf]

All software has bugs!

With that statement, you're preaching to the choir.

But I meant that DVD-A has a number of "deal breaker" sort of bugs, ones that lose projects or refuse to let your project author. Worthless error messages, sometime the software just shuts down and gives no error messages whatsoever.

Lots of complaints here:
https://www.videohelp.com/tools?toolsearch=architect&s=&orderby=Name&hits=50&convert=&d...res=&listuser=

I'm not saying "don't get it" but I am saying "be prepared" as this is software known to have it's issues that can make it completely unworkable.

Ulead, Pinnacle, Sonic Solutions, Sony Pictures, and Adobe all have "solutions' packages for video, but as far as I'm concerned, none of them are great from front to back. They all have major holes, usually in the authoring or capturing departments. Burning and editing is usually not an issue.

People buy hardware and software the same. Some go in and say "I want a computer" and they buy the Dell or eMachine or whatever. Sure, it works, but it's not a performance system. Others go in and either built their own or submit a custom work order, wanting this hard drive, that card, etc, piece by piece. A piecemeal approach to BOTH hardware and software will almost always yield a better result (superior performance!) than the pre-made "packages" that people can buy. This is why I own Ulead DVDWS2, Adobe Premiere, Sony SoundForge, Canopus Procoder, etc. I picked the pieces that did the best job, not a half-assed "package" sold by any one company.

In other words, if you buy the "package" you cannot expect much. If you refuse to take a step-by-step approach, you're likely going to end up with a lesser result than you'd truly like to have.

[slacker]

But I meant that DVD-A has a number of "deal breaker" sort of bugs, ones that lose projects or refuse to let your project author. Worthless error messages, sometime the software just shuts down and gives no error messages whatsoever.

Lots of complaints here:
https://www.videohelp.com/tools?toolsear ... ;listuser=

I'm not saying "don't get it" but I am saying "be prepared" as this is software known to have it's issues that can make it completely unworkable.

I’ll have to give that a look! I haven't experienced any of those issues the thread is referring to with my system. Many cited program errors I chalk up more to "messy" environments or user error than the software issues. So it's tough to analyze. I’m sure you consider the same. I know you use DVD Workshop which I have read bad stories (and good stories) about on other sites and I bet on your system DVD Workshop works just fine!

Ulead, Pinnacle, Sonic Solutions, Sony Pictures, and Adobe all have "solutions' packages for video, but as far as I'm concerned, none of them are great from front to back. They all have major holes, usually in the authoring or capturing departments. Burning and editing is usually not an issue.

I understand what you’re saying EXCEPT I would never use the phrase “major holes” in a discussion until I understood the requirements of the user / member / customer I was communicating with or talking to. As you have said elsewhere, there is no one right answer! For example, for me, today, Sony works phenomenal, i.e. interface, learning curve, functionality, system load, end results! I don’t need multiple VTS now. But I may tomorrow!

People buy hardware and software the same. Some go in and say "I want a computer" and they buy the Dell or eMachine or whatever. Sure, it works, but it's not a performance system. Others go in and either built their own or submit a custom work order, wanting this hard drive, that card, etc, piece by piece. A piecemeal approach to BOTH hardware and software will almost always yield a better result (superior performance!) than the pre-made "packages" that people can buy. This is why I own Ulead DVDWS2, Adobe Premiere, Sony SoundForge, Canopus Procoder, etc. I picked the pieces that did the best job, not a half-assed "package" sold by any one company.

Again, I understand what you’re saying EXCEPT your idea of “superior performance” is subjective. You have to know your user / member / customer you’re trying to help. I just purchased a $295 Dell laptop for an 85 year old woman I know casually from the local dog park (I own two pugs) so she can browse the web. That’s all she needs! To me, it’s a piece of SHIT! I could use it as a doorstop. But to her, it’s PERFECT. My daughter uses an “off the shelf” $1000 HP laptop for college. Does it meet her needs and work for her? Absolutely! On the other hand, it can’t run ONE lousy piece of software I have on my system without hiccupping. So the real question is… What does “better result” mean? Is it narrowly defined or does it take into account the bigger picture?

In other words, if you buy the "package" you cannot expect much. If you refuse to take a step-by-step approach, you're likely going to end up with a lesser result than you'd truly like to have.

I definitely get the sense you know what YOUR expectations are. But everyone dives into video for different reasons. I think the real trick is figuring out what the other user / member /customer expectations are and meeting those without going over or under, and gently SUGGEST other possibilities that maybe they haven’t thought about before and see if anything sticks. That is how you run a business, or help a friend stay productive or save some money on both counts!

For Mercutio I read Sony Movie Studio Platinum v6.0. I could be wrong! That’s still my read, for now!

Take care…