Rendering from Vegas 6 to AVI

[nzo]

This is a Vegas related question.

Is it true that rendering a multi-track Vegas project to *.avi is a lossless process?

Thanks.

[guns1inger]

maybe. although I'm not entirely sure where you are going with this. avi is just a container format into which you pour video and/or audio data. the way the data is stored is determined by the codec used. if you use a lossless codec, or uncompressed, then it is lossless. Similarly with audio. MP3 is lossy. LPCM is uncompressed.

Perhaps you can give us more detail as to what has inspired this question, so we can give you a more tailored answer.

[nzo]

Thanks for your explanation guns1inger. I hadn't looked at it that way before.

I was just wondering if, in the process of collapsing a multi-track Vegas project (which references the *.avi and *.wav files originally loaded into Vegas) into one more easily managed *.avi with all the effects, transitions etc applied, involved any form of compression.

Could I, in theory, render the rendered *.avi file again and again without quality loss, provided I stick to *.avi?

My machine is not particularly powerful and whatever way I can reduce the load on my PC is good, otherwise things can grind to a halt.

[BJ_M]

depends what avi codec you are using .... if you use a lossless codec .. yes ...

a lossy codec - no ..

[BJ_M]

there are some 50 different types of avi codecs ..

[nzo]

Ok - I hadn't realized there were such things as lossy *.avi codecs. I thought it was all the others that were lossy. Thanks.

So when Vegas renders to *.avi, as specified in the render choice dropdown menu, how can I tell if the codec Vegas defaults to is lossless or not?

[guns1inger]

There are very few lossless codecs, and lossy codec compress much better, albeit at the cost of quality. Huffyyuv is a good place to start looking. Most of the better known ones will be in the codec list in the tools section.

As for 'more easily managed', it depends what you are doing. Once you render the timeline out to an avi, you can't then load up that avi and make changes to the transitions etc. That's what the vegas project file is for.

If you are finding that your timelines are becoming confused and too busy, Vegas 6 does allow you to nest timelines. Effectively it is a project within a project.

Another thing to consider about lossless codecs is that they tend to take up a lot more HDD space, and can be pretty CPU/HDD intensive to playback because there is a lot of data. If you only need to do this for small clips, it is a feasible approach. If you need to do it for longer clips, and you only need to do it perhaps once for the first pass, then one more time for a second pass - say text overlays or similar - then DV might be a good compromise. I say this only because while DV isn't lossless, the Sony DV codec is very good, and can withstand 2- 3 reencdoes before it starts to degrade noticably.

I would consider nesting projects before heading down this path if you can though. If you set your preview window to the right settings, your PC should be able to handle a reasonable edit session.

[jtoolman2000]

A ten second NTSC 720x480 project rendered using the Video for Windows Avi setting will be 36.4 megabytes. You can extrapolate from that as to joust how big a file you will have with a different length video project file.

However, I am not sure whether that choice of codec creates a lossy or non lossy result.

[nzo]

Thanks gunsl1inger and jtoolman.

So...when Vegas renders to AVI, I'm assuming Vegas uses the Video for Windows Avi codec that is already resident on an XP system? IOW, Vegas does not bring its own AVI codec to the party.

So why would I use AVI to AVI rendering in Vegas at all? Keeping in mind that I'm a mere newbie, one use would be to apply a processor-intensive task such as a Magic Bullet film effect to a longish clip.

Bring me back down to earth if my thinking is wrong

[jtoolman2000]

Well actually, most of the time I render directly to DVD NTSC MPG2 720x480
which gets imported into DVD Architect to author my DVD project.

One word of caution. The Main Concept MPG codec that comes with Vegas and works wwith both programs has to be registered before it will work.

It is done via the internet and the process will be triggered when you attemp to render to MPG.

[hiptune]

there are some 50 different types of avi codecs ..

The one in Vegas for AVI says "windows video". Is this one of the better ones?

And if Huffy is the real deal, does it work with Vegas and Procoder both flawlessly? These are the two major programs I use for my commercial products.

I try to save my vegas projects whole, and insert new elements, and then render new fresh AVIs, rather than edit old renders, and insert things into them.

So I re-render fewest times possible. It sounds like you are saying AVIs drop in quality each time an edit is made and re-rendered to completed AVI.

[crazy14muzic]

I use the dv codec just for space purposes. I've tried the huffyuv codec a few times with sad results. And uncompressed uses sooooooo much harddrive space you better have the bucket space for it. But I like to save to dv format simply so that I can output through my advc-100 back to tv to see what it looks like on a bigger screen. I'm currently working on a laserdisc collection of cartoons 5 discs clv 2 sides worth at about 9 1/2 hours (120gigs) worth of material being converted to dvd.

I know vegas 6 (not sure about earlier versions) comes with a sony yuv codec. I it think is equivilent to the huffyuv when checked with gspot, it just uses more space than the huffyuv codec. I've tried it a couple of times also but again with sad results.

[BJ_M]

huffyuv works flawlessly with procoder and vegas ...

the sony YUV codec is not the same as huffyuv at all .



as an aside -- you say you are doing commercial products - but yet you seem to be at a very basic level of knowledge -- you may want to consider taking some classes or along those lines to bone up on some skills

[hiptune]

huffyuv works flawlessly with procoder and vegas ...

the sony YUV codec is not the same as huffyuv at all .



as an aside -- you say you are doing commercial products - but yet you seem to be at a very basic level of knowledge -- you may want to consider taking some classes or along those lines to bone up on some skills

Yes, one can do commercial projects if you understand editing, encoding, and authoring very well. Of course you need to have three main things (besides talent) going for you. They are location, location, and location. I have all four!

I spent my summer vacation on film editing and photoshop classes at UCLA and Moviola (AVID). There was no time left for codec classes. And being that some of (all analog ones) my captures are done with the ADVC 500, I am not sure huffyuv would make much difference since Canopus outputs in a codec preset, and my Sony DVCAM deck outputs through 1394. So I would guess I would need to get a new capture card, and output strickly from a hi-def source to really benefit.

Basically, since my clients love the cool sharp look of the product, I have not bothered to try huffy (client is king). In my mind, I invision using more advanced capture, edit, and encoding methods when I feel that I need to offer HD or blue ray discs of my work. I do hate to convert digibeta to DV, and would like to work in strickly high def, but the clients are not asking for high def yet. High Def is where I am in my mind, not huffyuv, so I suffer. If I begin to work strictly in high def, do I need to think about huffyuv?

But there is time later to attend codec/encoding classes, thanks!

Looks to me like you are replying to two separate and different comments using no quotes, as an aside -- you might want to consider writing separate replies using quotes, just for the sake of clarity.