Microsofts new DVD format

[now3d]

read somewhere recently that microsoft is to introduce a new media format capable of 4:1 compression of Mpeg2, does anyone know anything more about this. it would be great if true as you could make a high quality SVCD fit on one disk!

[Kdiddy]

Yes there was post on this forum a few days ago, just have to look it up.

[salvius]

It ain't new, nor is it SVCD quality. It looks good, I'll give you that, but generally blockier and blurrier than Divx. Not to mention I expect all kinds of digital authorization needed for such CDs. This is MS after all.

[mkaylor]

Salvius,

It is new and it isn't even out yet so stop spreading trash about something you know nothing about. Do you work for the development team??? It was only demod a couple week ago.

MS completely rewrote the CODEC. Read the articals! It's good enough to do HDTV and 5.1 Surround Sound for Crist sakes plus it's going to be able to be played in a normal DVD player (upcoming models). Oh by the way, read your histroy of DivX, it came from Microsoft!!!! And I don't even really like MS.

Here is the link to my old post https://www.videohelp.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=70319&forum=8

[salvius]

Yes, you're right, that is a new version. I apologize, I didn't see it. By the way, 4:1 compression ratio lossless is going to be VERY interesting to see. Hmm, that's the same claim that the beta made.

As for Divx, it did not COME from MS. ASF came from MS not Divx. The Divx codec is heavily moded, has supported ac3 sound for an eternity now. Nothing like the old asf crap MS threw out. So, NO! Divx didn't come from MS. That's the silliest thing I ever heard in my life.

[Anonymous65]

Divx is Mpeg-4, which came from MS. Do some reasearch...

[Shabubu]

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On 2001-12-18 11:36:14, salvius wrote:
Yes, you're right, that is a new version. I apologize, I didn't see it. By the way, 4:1 compression ratio lossless is going to be VERY interesting to see. Hmm, that's the same claim that the beta made.

As for Divx, it did not COME from MS. ASF came from MS not Divx. The Divx codec is heavily moded, has supported ac3 sound for an eternity now. Nothing like the old asf crap MS threw out. So, NO! Divx didn't come from MS. That's the silliest thing I ever heard in my life.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Umm according to the author of DivX it did come from MS, the ac3 support is with additional codecs, so by that arguemnt Indeo supports AC3, and DivX 3.11 isn't heavly modded, it's just MPEG4 available to other programs (called divx so the FourCC code didn't clash with other installed codecs). DivX 4.11 is however different.

[JHebert]

Right, the original Divx 3.11 was based on "MS Mpeg-4 v3" or something like that, they just removed the "AVI lock" from the codec so that you could save in AVI format instead of just ASF Windows Media format.
Its not really correct to call either DivX or Windows Media "MPEG-4" as the codec was released before official MPEG-4 was finalized and it was just MS trying to jump the gun and co-opt a standard.
Divx 4.11 is supposed to be based on a new different codebase and is no longer just a rip of MS code.
Also, MPEG-4 is a lot more than just a codec standard. It is a "container" format that enables storage of various streams, graphics, animation, etc and the file format is actually based on Apple QuickTime.
Personally I hope the MS plan to get Windows Media in DVD players is a miserable failure. They are too big a monopoly already in PC software, now they are trying to take over even more. XBox, UltimateTV, WebTV, PocketPC, soon cellphones too. Now they want to "embrace and extend" open standard VCD/SVCD/DVD with their proprietary expensive buggy virus ridden crap.
However DVD players with open standard MPEG-4 support would be very cool, but then are millions going to run out and replace the players they just got?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: JHebert on 2001-12-18 20:49:58 ]</font>

[alkieman]

The new format is not a DVD format and wont play on any current stand alone DVD players. Just because some manufacturers may produce players in the future which will handle it does not make the new MPEG4 variation DVD compliant at all. Some manufacturers produce DVD players that can also play MP3 files, doesn't make MP3 CDs DVD compliant.

[Khizhiy]

MPEG-4 video compression is a big plus being embedded in the future DVD players. The standard will give more perfected picture for the same amount of data written. Microsoft has its implementation of the standard, but there will be others. I will only be glad to see MPEG-4 capable players available.

[Dano]

Say what you want about Microsoft. But, the fact of the matter is, who does not want the ability to 'record the entire Godfather series on a single CD'? Let's be honest. Most of us will be burning rubber to buy these new players. For the rest of you, Good Luck. I see this as a Godsend.
All of our time and energy spent for tweaking and trying to perfect quality and compression will finally be alleviated.
If nothing else, this would be a great way to finally transfer all those old VHS tapes onto CD!

_________________
=Dano=

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dano on 2001-12-20 07:34:53 ]</font>

[JHebert]

"Record the entire Godfather series on a single CD"
HaHaHa if you believe that one, I've got a bridge in NY that I'll sell to you. Try doing the bitrate math on that claim and see how it holds up. Its a typical MS exaggerated claim to get headlines and get users all excited.

"Microsoft has its implementation of the standard"
Windows Media is not an implementation of MPEG-4. It is a proprietary format intended to lock you into M$ software. By comparison, you can create MPEG-1 or MPEG-2 files in any number of different encoders, and play them in a wide variety of player software and devices. True MPEG-4 if/when it comes to market should have the same interoperability. That I agree would be a great feature in future DVD players.

[Dano]

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On 2001-12-20 08:36:49, JHebert wrote:
"Record the entire Godfather series on a single CD"
HaHaHa if you believe that one, I've got a bridge in NY that I'll sell to you. Try doing the bitrate math on that claim and see how it holds up. Its a typical MS exaggerated claim to get headlines and get users all excited.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

You must have not heard of MPEG4?- This is going to be even better-

I wonder if you have read the articles? Here is one of the excerpts:

"A new video codec will boost performance 20 percent over current-generation video codecs, and will enable the playback of high-definition 720 x 1,280 progressive scan video at 24 frames per second, said Will Poole, vice president of the Windows Digital Media Division of Microsoft. Using Windows Media's 4-to-1 compression ratio advantage over MPEG-2, "studios could put all the Godfather movies or an entire musician's discography on a single CD," said Poole."

You're comparing Apples to Oranges here. Let's see what happens. You may want to look for some good wine to go with that crow you'll be eating.

[JHebert]

Yes, I have heard of MPEG-4. I also read the articles.
However, as I said, no version of Windows Media is MPEG-4.
THe MPEG-4 standard includes both file format and codec specifications. Windows Media, DivX, Real, etc may have codecs similar to and/or inspired by MPEG-4 technology, but that does not make them MPEG-4 compliant. The closest relative to true MPEG-4 is QuickTime because it was used as the basis for the MPEG-4 file format. However, QuickTime does not currently have a compliant MPEG-4 format either.

Microsoft claims of 4:1 compression advantage over MPEG-2 are probably true. I don't doubt that it has more efficient compression than MPEG-2. However, you can fit about 15-20 minutes of DVD quality MPEG-2 on a single CD. At 4:1 advantage, that would give you 60-80 minutes of DVD quality Windows Media on a single CD. As I recall, the entire Godfather series is probably over 7 or 8 hours. Get out the bitrate calc and do the math. Enter 450 minutes of video, 700MB cd-r, maybe 64Kbs for the audio. What do you get, about 150Kbs for the video? Do you really believe you can get DVD quality at that bitrate, or even VCD quality, let alone HDTV quality? Maybe they meant a single DVD not CD.

If you like Windows Media, and are comfortable with the idea of a single company dictating and controlling industry standards, then by all means go for it. I would rather use tools and standards that are widely supported and promote competition rather than monopoly.

[Dano]

I can see your point. It's possible they meant a DVD. But no one knows what the hardware is capable of. So... Let's wait and see.

[skeetervh]

Compression sucks! And at the same time, it doesn't. Some where, in some way, there is always quality loss - like my stupid directv using quarter or half color resolution! I HATE THAT!!! I have a love-hate relationship with it. I'd rather someone invent media that could hold a couple terabytes, then we could have one disc with a totally uncompressed godfather series in HD and 5.1.

Anyway, I don't think it's something to make a big stink about. Most of us didn't spend too much money on our current DVD players. Getting a new one that supports this proprietary format could be worth it...I'm sure it will be once the wonderful hacking community figures out new and unplanned uses for this new technology. Remember when they said it would be years for DVD encryption to be hacked? Remember when we complained about XP's activation? It sucks in principal, but guess who's running a cracked version of XP Professional, Plus pack, and office on all his home computers? All new technology has ended up benefiting us, although sometimes that's because of illegal actions. But so what? Unless this country goes commie, M$ will never control ALL of us. And if they do have all those AOL-logging on, Gateway-buying, attachments-from-an-unknown-source-opening, "What's a browser?" nimrods on a leash...so what? Maybe they're better off that way. But they'll never get to us!

[mkaylor]

JHerbert,

You left out a word "PRESENTLY"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You have no idea what the new format, is now do you??? It may be 100% fully DivX format. No one knows till it hits the street! I hate when people talk about the past formats like they are what is coming out!!! If you don't know for sure, then don't type. It misleads people!!!!!!!!!

I think everyone should get down on a knee and praise MS for getting DVD players to support a better format than VCD or SVCD. If it is even close to DivX I will be tickled to death as 90% of the people out there will be too. YES we will all be burning rubber to get one!!

Sure MS is a big monopoly. So why is Windows the OS on your computer???? You could run BEOS or Linux or even buy a MAC but most of you that bitch DO NOT!! HHHHmmmmm must be the best OS out there for people? I don't know, I run Red Hat. hehehe I'm sure glad Bill Gates came along. Othewise we would be running Commodore 4000's, and Atari 6000's right now.

So go home and take Windows off your PC or shutup about MS and praise them for the good work they do and not the bugs that happen to come from it. Sure they may force standards and try to make their own, but if it wasn't for them, you probably wouldn't have a PC right now. Yes here we go again with possibly another MS standard in the video arena but once again at least, hopefully it'll be better than VCD for recording movies.

[lindy1170]

Just to throw a spanner in the cd vs dvd discussion.
Heard about FMD? Will use up to 100 layers and will hold between 25 - 100Gb. I'm sure that would hold the entire godfather series one one disc!!!
check out http://www.c-3d.net/product_frameset.html

[KoalaBear]

Let's get real about this:

The three Godfather movies have a combined runtime of 537 minutes (8:57). MPEG can hold about one hour of video on a CD. If Windows Media is four times as efficient as MPEG it can fit about four hours on the same CD. That's not good enough by at least 60%.

And 16:9 HDTV at streaming media bitrates? Please. You'd need a codec several hundred times as efficient as MPEG to pull that one off, and no such technology is even on the horizon let alone available for embedding in the next generation of decoder chips.

This inspired me to try and find out who this Will Poole person actually is. Turns out he's a Microsoft exec with a BS degree in computer science who plays with digital video as a hobby.

In other words, he's a businessman and not a scientist. I sincerely doubt he actually understands what he's talking about or he'd never have made these ridiculous claims to begin with.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: KoalaBear on 2001-12-20 11:33:50 ]</font>

[kinneera]

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I'd rather someone invent media that could hold a couple terabytes, then we could have one disc with a totally uncompressed godfather series in HD and 5.1.
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I would definitely have to agree with this. Now I'm sure to get flamed for this, but I think even Divx is largely crap. These are all lossy codecs were talking about, and anything that can fit twice as much video in the same space as MPEG2 is throwing out twice as much information. Every Divx I've every seen had visible blocks almost all of the time, very poor color, and was blurry.

Furthermore, even at 8Mbps MPEG2 is considered to be at the borderline of transparency (the point at which the artifacts introduced at invisible to the naked eye). For the majority of the consumer market, more compression will never be acceptible, and movie studios/marketers know it. The only market for the future with any real possibility of wide acceptance is better media, and less loss of data, not more. The only reason crap like Divx and even more heavily compressed formats are popular is because of the fact that they are free. People put up with a lot more reduction in quality when they aren't paying anything for it. But you better believe that people will not pay $20 for a Divx movie, whether or not it plays in their standalone device, which is what this "new" technology is all about. I sure as hell wouldn't.

Its seems to me that the movie studios are really just trying to find a way to make money off of the popularity of Divx, which is currently used almost exclusively for piracy.

I would be much more thrilled to see an announcement that FMD players are being made that will have media that can hold an entire movie in a lossless AVI format, rather than this crap.

[dphirschler]

It said more efficient compression. It doesn't have to mean 'more loss'.


Darryl

[KoalaBear]

Actually, Darryl, beyond a certain point you have to start throwing data away in order to make a given dataset smaller than it was at the outset. Otherwise you could apply the same lossless algorithm to the dataset until it was as small as you wanted it to be, could you not?

Due to a few chinks in the armor of the universe, this isn't possible. After a certain point the dataset will grow larger rather than smaller with each iteration of compression. The reasons for this are very deep and relate ultimately to the core of information theory as a branch of mathematics, but considering Mr. Poole has a BS in CS I would expect him to have known this already.

While humans are at the top of the food chain, their perceptual systems are far from perfect. For example, if you show the eye a series of individual pictures rapidly enough, the brain will perceive that as fluid motion. By the same token, you can skirt the laws of thermodynamics by throwing away parts of a motion picture that the human visual system isn't sensitive to, and the brain cannot determine which is "live" and which is "memorex."

That is the principle upon which JPEG, MJPEG and MPEG are based.

These methodologies might not fool an eagle or a hawk, but the human brain is really only capable of understanding the difference on an abstract basis. You might know very well that motion pictures are constructed of a series of still frames shown in rapid succession, for example, but that knowledge does not (and cannot) destroy the illusion of motion itself.

All versions of MPEG exploit human perceptual weakness to throw away data we can't see in order to compress data beyond what entropic compression would physically allow. What this means is that for a video compression algorithm to be more "efficient" than another it must by definition dispose of more data. There is no way to retain such data without imposing an absolute limit on the degree of compression achievable.

What Microsoft is suggesting is that they can condense the collected works of William Shakespeare into eleven easy-to-download bytes. Not only is this impossible without revising information theory and the laws of thermodynamics as we know them, it is highly unlikely that the U.S. government would allow such technology to be transferred outside the country due to its enormous military potential.

Mr. Poole is no doubt well-meaning, but his "WM is four times more efficient than MPEG and therefore can squeeze up to nine hours of video onto a standard CD-ROM" contradicts itself regardless of the algorithm underneath.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: KoalaBear on 2001-12-20 16:50:46 ]</font>

[Greg12]

I"ve heard Xbox isn't bad.

And in this microsoft is competing.

They can't just buy up Sony or Nintendo.

Nor can they buy up or force developers to develop exculsivly for X-box.

To acuse microsoft of monopolizing by only releasing a game on their system is BS cause the other companies do it.

[JHebert]

Mgaylor,

You accuse me of trying to mislead people, but in fact it is M$ that is misleading people with their overhyped claims that do not stand up to skeptical and logical analysis. As I said, do the math and tell me that you think the "entire Godfather series" will fit on one CD-R with DVD quality at 100-150Kbs video bitrate. I don't need to know all the technical specs on this new format to know a bogus claim when I hear one.

Yes, it will have better compression efficiency than mpeg-1, mpeg-2, and current versions of Windows Media. It will probably be comparable to DivX. But I don't buy the "quantum leap" in performance that their claims would necessitate.

As for your opinion that Microsoft and Bill Gates are the best thing to ever happen to the PC industry, and that we would not have computers today without them, well I'm still laughing so hard from that one that I can't even see my monitor to type anymore.

[Chris X]

Microsoft rules, and kicks azz!!!

Yes, the rules of reality and reletivity and time, can, and will b broken, is your mind ready 4 the confusion?


Math, has its errors aswell. Or just unknown knowledge.

I will find and post my example.

[Chris X]

the product: http://www.theproduct.de
farbrausch: http://www.farb-rausch.com
or in german: http://www.farb-rausch.de