Last word on PAL to NTSC?

[IPOLY]

Oh I'm so sick of PAL.

Have a few of them and they won't play in my JVC which I paid good money for. They play on the cheapo Phillips in the bedroom and Polaroid even. I love the JVC quality and I'm worried if I replace it with a Polaroid (new in box) I will lose quality.

But on to conversion.

I had read a ton of articles, posts and tricks. A lot of it. Nothing FIRM. I'd tried the IFOedit trick and it worked on 1 of them. Mostly not on others. After burning the edited IFO and BUP files, even as they say NTSC in them, the JVC spits it out with a PAL sign on the led screen. One of them kills IFO on save. It says File corrupt when I load the VIDEO_TS.IFO and try to save it. Some "file end not matching size" even if I try to save without any editing. Just load and save. It dies. Does save it however, when I say OK. But then, DVDshring chokes on it on load.

I had not tried any of the commercial decoder software as they tend to cost a lot for this one purpose.

Tools I do have: Nero 6 Platinum. Did not find a PAL recode to NTSC in there. I heard a hint there is.

DVDshrink, and the usual stuff like TMPG, DVD2SVCD and so on.

So - last word on this type of conversion please? The easiest way? If I need to, I'll cough up some money but I'd like a solution. And I'd rather use Freeware if possible.

Thanks a bunch for your time!

[lordsmurf]

(1) Quit buying PAL DVDs.
(2) Or buy a player that does PAL and add it to the setup.

Those are the easiest solutions.

Software conversion methods really suck.
I would not even waste time on it.

[guns1inger]

What he said

[FulciLives]

Software conversion methods really suck.

Mr. Smurf ...

You have said this at least twice or so now in this thread and another thread or two.

Perhaps you should clarify that SOFTWARE is REALLY good but ONLY if you KNOW what the HELL you are doing LOL

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
Still waiting on that PM about that thing you asked me about.

[lordsmurf]

Software conversion methods really suck.

Mr. Smurf ...

You have said this at least twice or so now in this thread and another thread or two.

Perhaps you should clarify that SOFTWARE is REALLY good but ONLY if you KNOW what the HELL you are doing LOL

I should probably clarify that for INTERLACED material, when trying to retain the INTERLACE, it sucks.

You can do a decent job with films, easy to take progressive frames and fix. Maybe for IVTC-able sources, too ... maybe.

[Skynet107]

The last word on PAL to NTSC DVD conversions is to re-encode EVERYTHING to NTSC and re-author the DVD. This takes a lot of time, good software, and skill. If the source is interlaced, then it complicates the task even more.

I've done a few and trust me, it is not worth the effort. Get a player that plays everything it is a FAR better solution.

[absinthecarolinas]

Get a player that plays everything it is a FAR better solution.

Amen. You can pick up a Cyberhome for under 30 bucks at Wal-Mart. And better quality doesn't cost much more than that. Definitely a heckuva lot better than converting.

-abs

[IPOLY]

All right already!!



I do have a Polaroid player that is new in box and promises to play it all. It was a $50.00 gift. I think it came with a toaster

The few PAL DVDs I got from Europe I suppose are not worth all the re encoding time. But some of that stuff is just too cool.

But let's say I wanted to try it.

If I were to rip it, and use DVD2Avi and TMPG to encode to NTSC, that should do the job eh?

[FulciLives]

If you want to re-encode on the computer then look at this here thread:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=261056

That's probably the "best" and "easiest" way to do it.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[IPOLY]

Thanks for the info. DGpulldown seems the way to go. I'll work on a couple of those files when I will decide I need more pain. Seems too much work, but in some cases it might be worth it.

One day - there will be a one button conversion. Or the Europeans will come to their senses and start using NTSC (Duck).

[axlish]

This is how I convert PAL to NTSC

ReEncode to Hard Drive w/ DVDShrink, ripping all files as one singular VOB *(If it is separated into episodes, and wont rip as one VOB, I rip the disc, run the files through TMPGEnc, and then re-author w/ DVDShrink creating the singular VOB)

From there I use DivxtoDVD, select force NTSC, and process. It takes around an hour, and produces a ready to burn VIDEO_TS file. It takes away from the quality just a hair, but it looks nearly the same.

[IPOLY]

Guess I had enough.

Took my JVC DVD player and yanked it off the shelf. Broke out the cheapo Polaroid DVP 1000 which my wife wanted to drop kick and give to some friends that did not need it. I'm glad I told her to keep it, we may need it if the "good" one dies

So I fire this thing up. It automatically detects PAL and has settings up the butt. It blanks the subtitles. It resizes the screen on the fly. It has brilliand picture and a ton of settings.

And my JVC I paid well for, oh man. Just pissed at it. I had tried to hold onto it and mess around with all these PAL to NTSC conversions. Wasted a lot of my time. The solution was on the shelf.

(Kicking myself in the butt.)

All was not lost. I did learn some new tricks. But I suggest to others, as it was suggested to me. Forget converting if you got PALs. Get a cheapo DVD player that plays it all.

Boggles the mind how a pricey unit is eaten by a toaster replacement. In features and quality.

[jrisch]

Or the Europeans will come to their senses and start using NTSC (Duck).

You might well say "Duck". Remind me, what does NTSC stand for? "Never Twice the Same Colour"? The reason PAL exists at all is that NTSC was (note the word "was") so bad. That's why most everyone, bar the USA and Japan, uses PAL (apart from the French who have to be different and developed SECAM)

Rant over, pardon the generalisations, and apologies to anyone who feels insulted.

More apologies especially to my Canadian friends for using the term "USA" when I should have said "North America"

[jrisch]

I'm glad IPOLY has his solution, however the problem still exist. The answer isn't to not buy DVDs in the wrong format. This is assuming commercial DVD's.

In my case I am part of a worldwide sports group and am continually hit by our Japanese or North American colleagues produce training stuff on DVD that we in Europe want to distribute, or vice versa, and saying to all our members "buy a new DVD player" isn't acceptable.

We had this problem with video in the past but with DVD there should be a simple solution.

[jimmalenko]

I'm glad IPOLY has his solution, however the problem still exist. The answer isn't to not buy DVDs in the wrong format. This is assuming commercial DVD's.

In my case I am part of a worldwide sports group and am continually hit by our Japanese or North American colleagues produce training stuff on DVD that we in Europe want to distribute, or vice versa, and saying to all our members "buy a new DVD player" isn't acceptable.

We had this problem with video in the past but with DVD there should be a simple solution.

There is ... tell your Japanese or North American colleagues to produce training stuff on DVD in PAL


It's kinda funny though ... almost every PAL DVD player I've seen will play NTSC, but it's nowhere near the same ratio going the other way ...

[MrMoody]

It's kinda funny though ... almost every PAL DVD player I've seen will play NTSC, but it's nowhere near the same ratio going the other way ...

I think the problem is the TVs. Outside NTSC land, most TVs will play either standard natively. So all the players have to do is output either signal. But here in NTSC land, virtually NO TV will accept a PAL signal, so DVD players have to convert to NTSC on the fly to play PAL discs. Few people outside us video geeks have any PAL discs either, so that's why not all players have the ability.

Every player I've seen personally that converts also does a poor job of it, although I understand the newest models are better.

Another consideration is that when you're talking film, PAL is noticeably speeded up. I find it distracting. The converting players don't correct the speed (nor does the DGPulldown method).

[SatStorm]

There are methods like the 2:2 pull down that noone today use for bypass the PAL Speed up method. It is a pain in the ass and noone do it anymore.

SECAM is also used in Russia, few Eastern European countries and some french speaking African countries.

The best PAL => NTSC convertion, is the analogue NTSC capture of a PAL DVD played as NTSC on a cheap DVD Standalone player....

[jrisch]

I think the problem is the TVs. Outside NTSC land, most TVs will play either standard natively.

Most modern TV's may. However, noone in their right mind buys a new TV here in the UK, with the switch to digital and some form of HDTV so close.

I've bought several TVs in the past 5 years but still end up replacing them in the family room with my 12 year old Panasonic with its 3 AV inputs, multiple SCARTS, S-Video, external speaker output etc. The damn thing just won't break, unlike all of its supposed replacements. And my wife complains that it doesn't match the decor!

The point is that, no, most home TVs won't play NTSC as people keep the AV kit longer here. However I really haven't done that much investigation. I've had a few region 1 DVDs that I've run through DVDDecrypter (RIP) and burned with DVDShrink and they play no problem. So my take is that format conversion is a lot easier with DVD than it used to be with VHS.

[RottenFoxBreath]

2..4..6..8..NTSC sucks,PAL's great.!

as for noone in there right mind,what the hell are you talking about,its still a long way off,and hopefully so,driving prices down,and quality higher.
the thing is,hdtv is needed in the states for a better,nay,decent picture,whereas here in the uk,our pictures pretty damn good compared to the rest of the world.
and yes,most tvs that are pretty recent,WILL play ntcs,my 14 year old philips does,all variants of ntsc,my sony does,as does the kids matsui,and toshiba.and not forgetting the 44" rear projector tv in the living room.
if people find there equipment doesnt do something they want,then er...why not take it back and get one that does.jeez!

[jrisch]

PAL is noticeably speeded up.

Ah, the arrogance PAL isn't speeded up, it plays at its designed rate 25fps. If you play it at a different rate, it isn't PAL's problem!

Yes, I know I'm being deliberately provocative. Guess I'm just in a mischevious mood tonight (yes it's 11 p.m., irrespective of what time zone you're in!)

[jrisch]

its still a long way off,and hopefully so,driving prices down,and quality higher.

Actually, already in parts of Wales analogue has been shut off. Alright these are the testbed but the rumours are that it will be earlier for everyone than 2010. Any TV you buy now in the UK should be considered disposable.

[lordsmurf]

PAL is noticeably speeded up.

Ah, the arrogance PAL isn't speeded up, it plays at its designed rate 25fps. If you play it at a different rate, it isn't PAL's problem!

Yes, I know I'm being deliberately provocative. Guess I'm just in a mischevious mood tonight (yes it's 11 p.m., irrespective of what time zone you're in!)

Well, you're wrong. When 23.976 is sped up to 25fps, it's sped up. The running time is often a minute or two different.

But noticing a speed difference? Umm... no.
Your eyes cannot detect that something is 1/30th a second too fast.

[MrMoody]

Just because you can't tell doesn't mean no one can. It's mainly the sound that's noticeable.

[manono]

Hi-

It's 24fps that's speeded up to 25fps (nitpicking, I know). The 2:2 method as mentioned earlier by SatStorm isn't a bad way to do it, as then there's no audio speedup. When you remove the duplicate frame (usually on the DVD as 2 separate fields) every second, you're left with a perfect 24fps. That's fine for AVI, but no good for DVD. It's slowed from 24fps to 23.976fps by setting the Drop Frame flag to conform to NTSC standards.

I could be wrong, but as I understand it, in most cases the audio isn't pittch corrected when speeded up for PAL. It isn't usually the video speedup that people object to, but the audio speedup, which is more noticeable. If you're familiar with how a person's voice is supposed to sound, it can be pretty irritating. For example, I'm a Laurel and Hardy fan, and the NTSC DVDs of their work are pretty bad. The best in the world are the restored German Kinowelts, released in large boxsets in the UK, the Netherlands, and Germany. But Oliver Hardy's beautiful tenor voice sounds to me like he's been inhaling helium. People with perfect pitch sometimes violently object to the music being a semi-tone higher.

Edit: MrMoody said it more succintly.

[lordsmurf]

Just because you can't tell doesn't mean no one can. It's mainly the sound that's noticeable.

Well then, you must be some sort of super human with eagle/cat eyes and dog ears. For the rest of us, not gonna happen.

Most of those people that "claim" to hear or see differences are relying more on imagination more than anything else. Just think of all the people that see UFO's, see Elvis, see bigfoot, and hear werewolves. Pure imagination. They see or hear what they want to see or hear, not because it's actually there.

FYI, good work is supposed to be pitch corrected by about 4% or so. I forget the exact % but it's been said on the forum many times in the past.

I actually have both of the L&H sets, the UK and the USA one. I agree the video is better on the UK one by far. I'll have to pull and compare audio. But the other issue at hand is that the originals used by the USA or UK may have just been degraded, it's not uncommon for old media to degrade. Not to mention those old films, old methods did not have a really "standard" and "secure" method for video and audio speed, either at recording or playback. Just watch a marathon on AMC or TCM sometime, and listen to the same actor have a different pitched voice from film to film.

[Jester700]

That speed change is about 4%; not enough for normal people to discern, but I'd bet someone with perfect pitch could hear this in musical passages.

[IPOLY]

[quote="jimmalenko"]

I'm glad IPOLY has his solution, however the problem still exist. The answer isn't to not buy DVDs in the wrong format. This is assuming commercial DVD's.

I may have found my solution, but that doesn't mean I like it. I had a DVD on the shelf as a gift. A cheapo. But what if I did not? I had a good quality JVC player that is now used for backup, sitting on the shelf. In case the "good one" dies!!

So I agree. There should be a solution. If nothing else, at least a one shot software one. No mumbo Jumbo. newbie food. Easy.

[dvd3500]

The last word on PAL to NTSC DVD conversions is to re-encode EVERYTHING to NTSC

What about Neuron2's Pulldown tool?
http://www.neuron2.net/dgpulldown/dgpulldown.html
Should make it easy and fast...

[MrMoody]

No, DGPulldown is not the magic answer. The only step it eliminates (out of many) is slowing down the audio, which can easily be accomplished in one step in minutes with AC3Machine. It also creates a visible motion stutter (just like hardware conversion does) and won't work on interlaced material. Not to dis Neuron2 in any way: it's still useful at times, and it's nice having a GUI for doing 3:2 pulldown instead of writing a command using pulldown.exe, and his other work (like DGMPGDec) has been invaluable.

[manono]

I hate to disagree with you, MrMoody, because you helped me in another thread recently, but:

1. AC3Machine sucks for converting an original AC3. If you convert the original AC3 to WAV, and the AC3Machine reencoded AC3 to WAV, and compare the waveforms, they aren't at all alike. If you used SoftEncode, on the other hand, then you have something worth keeping. But not everyone has access to that or the other commercial AC3 encoders. Sometimes it's just not worth the trouble of getting rid of the higher pitched PAL audio if the audio is degraded so much.
2. No Pulldown, DGPulldown or any other, works on Interlaced material. For NTSC, it has to be encoded as 29.97fps Interlaced.
3. There are GUIs for Pulldown.exe already, so that, by itself, is no reason to use it.
4. I know you've mentioned this "motion stutter" before, but I've probably used DGPulldown more than anyone, and I have yet to note even one example of it. They play smooth as silk on my setup. This is using DGPulldown on everything from encoded 19.98fps (the minimum possible to use DGPulldown) up to and including 25fps. For me especially, being able to Decimate a silent film DVD back to its original framerate and then run DGPulldown on it afterwards is a huge help. You can imagine the bitrate savings that come from encoding 19.98fps Progressive, as compared to 29.97fps Interlaced. There's no comparison between what DGPulldown can accomplish, and what a hardware standards converter does, if you're referring to the bad PAL to NTSC conversions created by Field Blending. Those things look horrible.