Recent Linux Experience - rant

[vitualis]

Recently, I've decided have another look at Linux. This is the third time I've downloaded/bought one or two distributions to play around with.

My first experience with Linux was with Red Hat Linux on what must be around 7 years ago. Although it seemed to install well enough, at that time, I found Linux rather frustrating to use. Memorably, it took me 1 to 2 hours before I finally worked out how to connect to the internet. This was also the time before Mozilla and OpenOffice so what I consider "vital" software was conspicuously missing (Netspace Communicator no longer cut the grade with IE 4).

After playing with Red Hat for a while, I eventually deleted the partition and went back to Windows... and troublingly enough, I was GLAD to go back to Windows where things just "worked" (another disturbing thought).

My second fling with Linux was with Mandrake 8.x (I think) and it seemed promising enough. However, it seemed to run rather slowly compared to Windows (98SE) again there was the problem with software. I don't know if it is just me, but the standard GUI (KDE) just doesn't seem very stable and I always seemed to be able to get the GUI to freeze / hang / stop working properly.

In the last few days, I've downloaded and tried out Mandrake 10.1 (the free version) and Knoppix.


Mandrake 10.1
I don't know if anybody else here uses Mandrake but I was significantly underwhelmed when I finally installed it. Admittedly the hardware autodetection was pretty good but again the GUI just didn't seem particularly responsive and I always got the sense it was just one step short of freezing on me.

Several annoying things became apparent also. The last time I used Mandrake, most features like Samba and browsing the local (Windows) LAN was mostly (though not totally) flawless. I'm pretty sure that my limited knowledge of Linux has not diminished, but I couldn't seem to get Samba working on Mandrake 10.1. Grrr...

When I plugged in my USB memory key, KDE essentially stopped working... i.e., I couldn't load the file explorer (until I logged out and back in again).

Although we finally have anti-aliased fonts (compared to my last experience of Mandrake), they look like crap compared to WinXP.

There there are a number of other annoying "don't quite work" issues. I like Firefox and Firefox isn't on the install discs. I tried the package manager install software and apart from the install CDs and the update server, it isn't configured to get software from another other source.

After working out how to point the software package manager to the Mandrake Contrib directory (a process that is completely non-intuitive and I'm sure absolutely no PC newbie can do), only the PR version of Firefox was available. I installed that anyway thinking that I could "update" it directly through Firefox... and indeed, it appeared that I could. Except that after Firefox downloaded the updated version of itself, it wouldn't install...

So I then ran Firefox as su and tried again, and the update appeared to install okay... except when I ran it, it didn't work properly! Arghhh!


Knoppix
So at this point in time, I've given up on Mandrake. I've been hearing lots of good things about Knoppix so I'd thought that I would give it a whirl. In many ways, it seemed to share some good features of Lycoris and Xandros (i.e., their all Debian based) except that it was free (correct me if I'm wrong, but the free versions of Lycoris and Xandros are crippled?)

I had always steered clear of Debian in the past because it was supposed to be difficult to install. These newer Debian based OSes seemed quite intriguing.

Firstly, watching Knoppix boot is wonderous. Compared to Mandrake, it does take too much longer to boot on my PIII 1GHz laptop and most things are detected correctly as well.

KDE on Knoppix seems to be MUCH more responsive than in Mandrake. Why?

My USB memory key works flawlessly as well.

Antialiased fonts are not turned on by default but when they are on, they look pretty good (near on par to Windows XP).

Samba works!

And I hear good things about apt-get though I haven't explored it fully yet.

At present, I'm reading on the net for ways of installing Knoppix onto the HDD.


My views on the problems with Linux
I'm not a PC newbie and I have no problems with using a command console (grew up in DOS days), but for quick intutive usage, a good logical GUI goes a long way (ala Mac OS X).

Windows XP (and definitely Mac OS X) still has an advantage over Linux (Mandrake and Knoppix at least) in terms of the easy of use of the GUI. Mandrake particularly seemed to have the "Start Menu" or "Panel Menu" poorly organised. Having system configuation settings buried 3-4 levels down a menu is highly illogical and ineffective.

Both Mandrake and Knoppix still carry over the somewhat schizophrenic duality of both a "Mandrake/Knoppix" menu as well as a "KDE" menu -- with apps/applets that overlap in functionality.

I personally find Windows XP wizards are very useful for some tasks, especially the FIRST time I need to do something. More Wizards in Linux would be helpful.

Although I understand the benefits and security of the file permissions under Linux, it should not interfere with basic tasks like installing software (e.g., my highly aggravating Firefox experience with Mandrake). I don't see any reason why if insufficient priviledges aren't available that the OS shouldn't ASK you for your su password.


Discussion
I'm going to continue to experiment with Knoppix for now. It seems like a pretty good Linux distribution. Does any body else have experiences to share about Linux?

What other modern distributions should I consider having a look at?

Regards.

[Soopafresh]

I set up some "soopa" servers using SUSE 9 and Samba. These boxes are supporting 4TB of disk space and Raid 5. Works great, but Samba was a whole lot of work to set up, and I'm a networking consultant by trade.

As you know, installing Linux is a snap. Configuring and supporting it is more difficult than Windows. Good for us techies, I suppose.

[jackal70058]

I always afraid that Linux can be buggy.

I knew someone who used Knoppix and he really like it, so I always thought of that one. He had it install on his hard disk drive so I sure there a way.

[Cole]

I had a copy of Knoppix which booted and ran from a CD.

Thankfully, it was free as my TFT Monitor couldn't get a signal from this OS so I fell at the first hurdle.

[thecoalman]

I just downloaded knoppix, everthing went fine except I had no mnitor control. It was stuck in 65hz which is just unrealistic. I did some searching around and there are drivers for my nvidia card so I'll give it a try again sometime when i get the chance. I really can't comment on it because I didn't have enough time to explore it, my eyes were bugging out of my head.

[vitualis]

Installed Knoppix on my HDD. In fact, using it now with Firefox... It is really a very good Linux distribution. If there was only an easy way to install it onto the HDD rather than using the somewhat complicated process I found on the web (and not entirely smooth).

Regards.

[disturbed1]

You should check out a nice Gnome distro.

Gnoppix (Knoppix with Gnome ) or Ubuntu. Gnoppix is the Ubuntu live CD. Beatrix is a nice slimmed down distro combining Gnoppix and Ubuntu into a ~190mb CD.

KDE is way overbloated, and too childish/XP-Like for me. Why do I need 5 text editors with cute bouncing icons? It also suffers from another Windows flaw, by integrating the web browser as the file manager, and tying it into the GUI itself. One crashes, they all crash. GNOME follows the KISS philosophy and has strict human interface design guidelines.

The wonders of Debian are in the apt system. Using synaptic, a gui package manager, lets you install and uninstall all software, while solving any dependancies you may have. As most know, dependancies are a huge short coming for Linux. Debian has the largest software base of any Linux distro out there, and, far more educational, math, and science packages.

[vitualis]

To be perfectly honest, I got turned of Gnome way back when I used my first distribution of Red Hat... Maybe I will have to look at it again.

Thanks for the tips.

Regards.

[Cobra]

Thankfully, it was free as my TFT Monitor couldn't get a signal from this OS so I fell at the first hurdle.

I've never seen this - Knoppic LinuxLive boots fine on any PC with any monitor I've seen so far. I did have trouble with Mandrake and a TFT once, and it was because I didn't select a TFT monitor in the setup - I selected a normal monitor type instead. I couldn't get into the GUI at all.

Give it another go, and you might find you are pleasantly surprised.

[disturbed1]

To be perfectly honest, I got turned of Gnome way back when I used my first distribution of Red Hat... Maybe I will have to look at it again.

Thanks for the tips.

Regards.

Gnome was quite nasty before. I started enjoying it around 2.6. The current stable 2.8 is just perfect (IMO of course).

Let us know how your recent experience with knoppix continues, and if you decide to try another distro.

[WeedVender]

The WeedVender Is BACK! Muahahahahahahaha.
Not really but I was feeling a bit nostalgic.

Durring my absence I tried using the Ubuntu distro, based of debian. Although a bit slow durring boot up, it is an excelent distro. It does use Gnome but configuring it for things are a snap. I too had problems connecting to the internet but it was just a matter of finding the Network Settings box. I would highly recomend it for its ease of use and the amount of software that is available with it.

Please note that this was my first Linux distro and I did have some problems with it. For one thing, it did have some bugs. Plus, over time it started to become a bit unstable. But it was sharing a single disk with two other systems and I started fideling with it so that may have been the cause. If you would like to try it, you can get the torrent for the Live CD install.

[Garibaldi]

I started out with the Knoppix 3.4 live-cd, which I thought was great. I then tried out a whole bunch of other live-cds like Slax, xfld, ect ect ect. I finally decided to do a hd install but I didn't want to repartition, so I downloaded and installed topologilinux, which installs directly to an image file on your ntfs partition and then boots into it. Its based heavily off of slackware. I really liked it, didn't really have any problems setting it up, just getting used to linux. Recently I decided to go with an official Slack install so I repartitioned and installed Slackware 10.0. I've always liked KDE for some reason, Gnome just seems to bloated to me. XFCE and fluxbox are good too, but for some reason I like KDE for everyday use. I then updated to 10.1 when it came out with swaret and everything has been going well since.

I would recommend that everyone read this thread:
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?s=&postid=1463673#post1463673

I would recommend trying Slackware (or at least Slax) because its not bloated at all, and is very stable without too many bugs. One thing that is good about it too is that if you use Red Hat you will learn how to use Red Hat, but if you use Slackware you will learn how to use linux because it will teach you all you need to know to use any other distro.

I always afraid that Linux can be buggy.

I would definitely try Debian or Slackware, both of which are very stable and don't have very many bugs. Debian is very careful to not release a version until all the bugs are worked out.

So I then ran Firefox as su and tried again, and the update appeared to install okay... except when I ran it, it didn't work properly! Arghhh!

The reason for this was firefox installs to the default directory in the installer, probably inside the extracted folder you installed from. All you have to do is take the firefox executable from that location and make a symbolic link for it in /usr/local/bin.

I've been working with linux for quite awhile now. I'd be glad to answer any questions anyone has about getting started or problems they have.

[vitualis]

Thanks.

With Firefox (as per Mandrake experience), I was sure there was some way of fixing it. The point of my rant is that I can't see why it should require fixing.

In the Windows version of Firefox, the "update" button works as expected (and damn it, so it should!)

Still using Knoppix and continuing to be impressed.

I really like the apt system of installing/updating software. However, some of my pet gripes about Linux is still in Knoppix. Poorly laid out menus. Configuration apps/settings all over the place. Redundancy in apps.

I was using the KDE package manager for APT initially. Then I read about Synaptic which is heaps better. Why isn't it in the distribution insead of the KDE default?

Regards.

[Garibaldi]

Thanks.

With Firefox (as per Mandrake experience), I was sure there was some way of fixing it. The point of my rant is that I can't see why it should require fixing.

In the Windows version of Firefox, the "update" button works as expected (and damn it, so it should!)

Still using Knoppix and continuing to be impressed.

I really like the apt system of installing/updating software. However, some of my pet gripes about Linux is still in Knoppix. Poorly laid out menus. Configuration apps/settings all over the place. Redundancy in apps.

I was using the KDE package manager for APT initially. Then I read about Synaptic which is heaps better. Why isn't it in the distribution insead of the KDE default?

Regards.

As far as why you should have to do that to firefox, good question. It has nothing to do with linux, its just the way the firefox people packaged it, so you would have to ask them.

As far as your issues with Knoppix have you considered trying something like Debian, the base for Knoppix? You might find less redundancy there. You might also want to check out http://klik.berlios.de (in linux), the program klik allows you to install and use software without actually installing it, and they have tons of precompiled apps at their site, all you have to do is click on them and on any Debian-based system they're ready to go.

[vitualis]

Thanks again. Looks interesting.

Regards.

[Cole]

Thankfully, it was free as my TFT Monitor couldn't get a signal from this OS so I fell at the first hurdle.

I've never seen this - Knoppic LinuxLive boots fine on any PC with any monitor I've seen so far. I did have trouble with Mandrake and a TFT once, and it was because I didn't select a TFT monitor in the setup - I selected a normal monitor type instead. I couldn't get into the GUI at all.

Give it another go, and you might find you are pleasantly surprised.

Cobra - Actually I had forgotten that I had changed my TFT and my PC set ups since trying this, so on your prompt I did have another go.

It worked!

I will be having a play around with this for a bit to have a look, but it is quite interesting to have a different OS to have a go with.

Running from a CD, it is obviously slower than using Windows from a hard drive, but it is still quite quick. Not sure yet how I am going to get myself onto the internet using Knoppix, but a bit of a play around and I should find it. Nice set of games though.

I don't know if it will prompt me into getting a proper Linux installation, but you never know...

[vitualis]

I tested Knoppix on my laptop and normally share my internet connection on my WinXP desktop with ICS. Knoppix was able to automatically connect through the desktop to access the internet without further tinkering (which is as it should be).

Impressively, I was able to explore the shared folders of my LAN with Knoppix as well AND play a small DivX file without any further setup either. Nice.

Regards.

[pbhalerao]

I cannot say anything on Linux on desktops/laptops having very little experience on desktop-linux. But last year I was part of the team that migrated a very large Enterprise Suite of Applications from HP/UX to Linux. The project was for Electronic Arts. So far EA has been very happy with Linux. They are using Linux as the main OS for all their Enterprise Applications and on-line games such as The Sims. By moving from HP to Dell/Intel/Linux, EA saved US$ 3.4m by transitioning to Linux.

http://www.oracle.com/customers/studies/roi/ea.pdf

I will be glad to share with you the details of this story.

[Faustus]

I've heard good things about Ubuntu. I ordered 2 of their free CDs and forgot about them. A few months later I got like 5 of each version Mac,PC,PC64bit in the mail. Haven't installed it yet though.

The biggest problem linux has as an OS is learning how to do something in one part teaches no lesson about how the next thing will work. Its a big missmatch of an OS. By its very nature it will remain so.

Tack onto that the fact that unless it can be installed via something like aptget or emerge you have to manually download, compile, and then figure out why an apps not working and you have a crappy desktop OS. I want to USE my computer, not spend days trying to get a single app installed.

[vitualis]

I somewhat agree...

We can rant and rave about Windows all we want, but it is a rare app where double-clicking on an installer doesn't automatically install the app into a usable state.

Regards.

[Garibaldi]

I've heard good things about Ubuntu. I ordered 2 of their free CDs and forgot about them. A few months later I got like 5 of each version Mac,PC,PC64bit in the mail. Haven't installed it yet though.

The biggest problem linux has as an OS is learning how to do something in one part teaches no lesson about how the next thing will work. Its a big missmatch of an OS. By its very nature it will remain so.

Tack onto that the fact that unless it can be installed via something like aptget or emerge you have to manually download, compile, and then figure out why an apps not working and you have a crappy desktop OS. I want to USE my computer, not spend days trying to get a single app installed.

Its really not that bad. Installing from source even isn't too bad, just ./configure && make && checkinstall will get you all set in most cases. Usually if you get a fair sized distro it comes with all the apps you really need anyway. Plus you've got to remember that linux is a free OS, and has come a long way at that (yes I know red hat and mandrake are commercial but what they are based on is under the GPL).

[vitualis]

Actually, when compared to Windows install, it is bad.

Usual procedure for Windows install:
Double-click on the icon that says "Setup".

Even the simplest Linux installs cannot be clearly written in one line.

Regards.

[Garibaldi]

Actually, when compared to Windows install, it is bad.

Usual procedure for Windows install:
Double-click on the icon that says "Setup".

Even the simplest Linux installs cannot be clearly written in one line.

Regards.

Yeah true but still it isn't too hard imo. Just takes some time to get the initial setup.

[disturbed1]

There is a setup intsaller for linux, it's called Lin-Install. BNR2 uses it. There is a better way to package software also, by using static linked libs. The download is larger, but it includes everything needed in one tar ball, much like windows and it's dll files.

The problem is, each distro is it's own OS that sits on top of the Linux kernel. Everybody does everything different. Suse, Debian, Redhat, Slackware...... they all store certian libs, bins...... in different folders. None of them follow the same quide lines.

It's important to choose software that was made for your distro for the best results. That's why you'll have little to no problems using the distros built in software manager, and software mirrors supported directly from them. Keeping this in mind, you'll want the distro with the largest package data base (Debian).

When you need to find software that the devs don't maintain for your distro, is where you'll run into problems. Linux can be very stable, but includes old apps. Not the way to go for multimedia at all. On the other hand, it can also be bleeding-edge, but with most betas, it will crash and cause problems. You have to find the perfect balance between the two.

[Garibaldi]

There is a setup intsaller for linux, it's called Lin-Install. BNR2 uses it. There is a better way to package software also, by using static linked libs. The download is larger, but it includes everything needed in one tar ball, much like windows and it's dll files.

The problem is, each distro is it's own OS that sits on top of the Linux kernel. Everybody does everything different. Suse, Debian, Redhat, Slackware...... they all store certian libs, bins...... in different folders. None of them follow the same quide lines.

It's important to choose software that was made for your distro for the best results. That's why you'll have little to no problems using the distros built in software manager, and software mirrors supported directly from them. Keeping this in mind, you'll want the distro with the largest package data base (Debian).

When you need to find software that the devs don't maintain for your distro, is where you'll run into problems. Linux can be very stable, but includes old apps. Not the way to go for multimedia at all. On the other hand, it can also be bleeding-edge, but with most betas, it will crash and cause problems. You have to find the perfect balance between the two.

Right, you got .deb for Debian, .tgz for Slackware, rpms for Red Hat and all those rpm distros. You even got .cmg for Debian-based distros now too. But the point being that most mainstream software has a package for your system and can be installed without a hitch, and most source too.

[vitualis]

I've been reading around knoppix and have come across kanotix which looks pretty interesting.

Linspire actually looks pretty good too (though commercial). However, are you still running in root in the current versions?

Regards.

[Garibaldi]

I've been reading around knoppix and have come across kanotix which looks pretty interesting.

Linspire actually looks pretty good too (though commercial). However, are you still running in root in the current versions?

Regards.

You mean for Linspire? I'm not sure but if you are you can easily correct that, just make a new user.

[vitualis]

Yes, but does Linspire stop working properly if you do?

I'm pretty sure that older versions of Linspire/Lindows would make you run it as a root user.

Regards.

[Garibaldi]

Yes, but does Linspire stop working properly if you do?

I'm pretty sure that older versions of Linspire/Lindows would make you run it as a root user.

Regards.

Well that would be a reason to switch to something that gives you total control-> Slackware, Debian, Fedora, Arch, ect.

Those specialized distros are only nice to a point, where it won't let you do something you want to do.

[vitualis]

Took a leap and uninstalled Knoppix and installed Kanotix.

VERY NICE...

I even got captive-ntfs working which is cool (but scary).

Firefox and Thunderbird installed as default rather than Mozilla Suite.

Anti-aliased fonts ON as default which is nice. Default fonts ? seems to look better than Knoppix (and much better than Mandrake).

Got printing working over Samba on my Windows shared printer (which failed to do on Knoppix).

Only issue: my sound card isn't working properly...

Will need to investigate.

Regards.