Recent Linux Experience - rant

[Garibaldi]

Took a leap and uninstalled Knoppix and installed Kanotix.

VERY NICE...

I even got captive-ntfs working which is cool (but scary).

Firefox and Thunderbird installed as default rather than Mozilla Suite.

Anti-aliased fonts ON as default which is nice. Default fonts ? seems to look better than Knoppix (and much better than Mandrake).

Got printing working over Samba on my Windows shared printer (which failed to do on Knoppix).

Only issue: my sound card isn't working properly...

Will need to investigate.

Regards.

I can help with the sounds issue hopefully. Try running (as root, su) either alsaconfig or alsaconf, and see if you can get alsa (the linux sound app) to recognize your card. Before you do that though just hit alt-f2 in KDE and type kmix. It will pop up in your system tray, open it up and make sure all the volume controls are up, sometimes they are muted by default. It could be that simple. Glad to see you found a distro that you like though! What windowmanager are you using?

[vitualis]

Volume is working. The problem is that when sound plays, about a quarter second sample is repeated over and over again...

Thanks again for the tips!

Perhaps I'm a Linux newbie but I actually quite like KDE and always have since my first version of Red Hat... I'll probably give some of the lighter WM a spin once I get things settled.

Regards.

[Garibaldi]

Volume is working. The problem is that when sound plays, about a quarter second sample is repeated over and over again...

Thanks again for the tips!

Perhaps I'm a Linux newbie but I actually quite like KDE and always have since my first version of Red Hat... I'll probably give some of the lighter WM a spin once I get things settled.

Regards.

Hm... that definitely sounds like an error. I would try the alsa config I mentioned earlier.

I have always liked KDE from the beginning as well. I've tried other windowmanagers including fluxbox, gnome, and xfce. I liked fluxbox and XFCE but I like KDE better, even if it isn't as fast. I don't really know why, I just do so why try and change to a different one if I like the one I have already.

[vitualis]

I think I've mostly fixed it...

MP3 work with XMMS.

However, same problem with Xine with a DivX file...

Regards.

[Garibaldi]

I think I've mostly fixed it...

MP3 work with XMMS.

However, same problem with Xine with a DivX file...

Regards.

Personally I like amarok for mp3s. http://amarok.sf.net. JuK and Rhythmbox are also good.

As far as video I would give mplayer a try and see if you can get that to work, see www.mplayer.hu

[vitualis]

Actually, XMMS is the ONLY app where sound works...

Sound doesn't seem to work within KDE itself (the repeating loop thing) but for some reason, sound works perfectly through XMMS...

Obviously, the sound system works differently on Linux compared to Windows but I'm just confused as to how to fix this.

Sound worked perfectly on Knoppix... Hints anyone?

Regards.

[disturbed1]

It's going to depend on what sound card your using, and wether the interface is with OSS, ALSA, or ESD.

Some cards don't have drivers available for all interfaces. While XMMS may use ALSA, XINE could be trying to use OSS.

Check the sound settings in XMMS, since it works, and change all other apps to that interface.

[vitualis]

The annoying thing is XMMS works whether I set it to OSS or ALSA and KDE (and Xine) is working with neither...

Arghh...

And I thought hardware detection was mostly sorted out in Linux by now...

Still, I like Kanotix so I'll probably stick with it but this is rather annoying!

Regards.

[Garibaldi]

The annoying thing is XMMS works whether I set it to OSS or ALSA and KDE (and Xine) is working with neither...

Arghh...

And I thought hardware detection was mostly sorted out in Linux by now...

Still, I like Kanotix so I'll probably stick with it but this is rather annoying!

Regards.

The way the sound system works is KDE can "capture" your sound device and then release it after a given amount of time. Maybe KDE can't properly capture it or something and that's why your sound doesn't work normally but XMMS does work. I would try that alsaconf if you haven't already. Maybe you can figure out what engine XMMS is using (maybe Gstreamer or Xine) and configure KDE to use that one. That is very strange though, but I would guess it has something to do with how KDE is interacting with the engine and capturing your card.

[vitualis]

I've done alsaconf...

I agree, it is KDE not being able to "capture" my sound device. However, I can't work out how to make it do so (I've tried just about every setting).

XMMS works I presume because it uses its own direct sound driver.

I had a look at Knoppix to see why it worked for sound but I couldn't work it out either. It looks like knoppix is only using alsa drivers and does not load oss ones (while I think that Kanotix is doing both). However, I don't understand the module system well enough to edit that...

Regards.

[Garibaldi]

I've done alsaconf...

I agree, it is KDE not being able to "capture" my sound device. However, I can't work out how to make it do so (I've tried just about every setting).

XMMS works I presume because it uses its own direct sound driver.

I had a look at Knoppix to see why it worked for sound but I couldn't work it out either. It looks like knoppix is only using alsa drivers and does not load oss ones (while I think that Kanotix is doing both). However, I don't understand the module system well enough to edit that...

Regards.

Well a sure-fire way to get only the alsa module is to recompile your kernel, maybe update to 2.6.xx. There are alot of great guides to doing this, I personally haven't done one yet though. What you could do before you try compiling it though is use partimage (www.partimage.com) to make a backup of your system to restore to incase it doesn't work. I would look at www.linuxquestions.org/questions/ for a guide for a debian-based distro.

[vitualis]

Kantoix already uses 2.6.xx kernel...

Reading around, it looks like flaky sound support is a relatively common problem with KDE and 2.6.xx kernel and onboard soundcards/laptop sound.

There may possibly be a sound config problem with Kanotix as well (though this is an n= 2 experience). I took my Kanotix live CD to try on my workstation at work and the sound module didn't initialise properly either. Knoppix worked properly with both machines.

Regards.

[Garibaldi]

Kantoix already uses 2.6.xx kernel...

Reading around, it looks like flaky sound support is a relatively common problem with KDE and 2.6.xx kernel and onboard soundcards/laptop sound.

There may possibly be a sound config problem with Kanotix as well (though this is an n= 2 experience). I took my Kanotix live CD to try on my workstation at work and the sound module didn't initialise properly either. Knoppix worked properly with both machines.

Regards.

Try using your Knoppix live-cd with the command "knoppix26" at the boot prompt. This will boot up the 2.6.xx kernel, and see if your sound will work in Knoppix after that. If it doesn't you know its the 2.6 kernel wtih Kantoix and you could compile a 2.4.

[vitualis]

I got sick of Kanotix not working with my sound so I've gone back to Knoppix.

Since using Kanotix, I've worked out a number of (relatively simple) configuration problems and was able to apply them to Knoppix so now everything (mostly) works.

Looking back over my experience, desktop Linux still has a long way to go. It took A LOT of effort to get things mostly working as I want. For example, Knoppix 2.6 refused to automount my USB key (though Knoppix 2.4 and Kanotix which also uses 2.6 kernel) has not problems. After working on the problem for about an hour, I've gotten it working.

Sound was obviously an issue with Kanotix (which I still can't work out).

And there is something funky with the configuration of the network printer. If you go through the KDE "Control Centre" in Knoppix, the printer daemon page doesn't work (though if you go directly through another link to Printer Manager, it does).

Captive-NTFS doesn't work with Knoppix but works with Kanotix (and I'm pretty sure it isn't "user error" since I know exactly how it should work now).

In a desktop version of Linux, any one of these issues can have new users scratching their heads wondering what is going wrong. In terms of hardware support (and consistency of support), Windows is still way ahead.

Regards.

[Garibaldi]

I got sick of Kanotix not working with my sound so I've gone back to Knoppix.

Since using Kanotix, I've worked out a number of (relatively simple) configuration problems and was able to apply them to Knoppix so now everything (mostly) works.

Looking back over my experience, desktop Linux still has a long way to go. It took A LOT of effort to get things mostly working as I want. For example, Knoppix 2.6 refused to automount my USB key (though Knoppix 2.4 and Kanotix which also uses 2.6 kernel) has not problems. After working on the problem for about an hour, I've gotten it working.

Sound was obviously an issue with Kanotix (which I still can't work out).

And there is something funky with the configuration of the network printer. If you go through the KDE "Control Centre" in Knoppix, the printer daemon page doesn't work (though if you go directly through another link to Printer Manager, it does).

Captive-NTFS doesn't work with Knoppix but works with Kanotix (and I'm pretty sure it isn't "user error" since I know exactly how it should work now).

In a desktop version of Linux, any one of these issues can have new users scratching their heads wondering what is going wrong. In terms of hardware support (and consistency of support), Windows is still way ahead.

Regards.

I'm happy to see that you got most everything working. As you can see it takes a little learning to figure out a few things but then your pretty well off. One reason you probably experienced most of those problems is you're using specialized distros. Knoppix is intended to be a distro that you walk up to any computer, pop in the cd, and have linux up and running. Therefore its not very tailored to any specific hardware specifications, it has to be very general. You might have better luck with a more customized distro, something that would offer more support for your specific needs and hardware.

[vitualis]

Perhaps, but there are still some fundamental weaknesses as far as I can see. I love using Knoppix/Debian but it would be impossible (e.g.) for my parents to use it while they can use Windows just fine.

John Dvorak recently published an inflammatory article on how MS could "kill" Linux and it was demolished in Slashdot by Linux fanboys. A "riposte" was recently published to that article. What it states is really quite telling of some of the mentality of Linux users, and frankly, unless these attitudes change, Linux will never be able to truly compete with Windows or MacOS.

From: Linuxworld

By A. Linux Kernel
Page 1 of 1

Oh boy. After a hard day swapping, caching, and scheduling, I settle down to check out the RSS feeds. And what's this? A pundit describing how Microsoft could destroy Linux. Not that that's much new. After all, I seem to remember that Windows 2000 was going to brush me aside. Or was it XP? Or Server 2003? Not so long ago, wasn't it Unixware's LKP that was going to kill me? Or was it Project Janus? Nah, I must be getting mixed up -- it's Longhorn that will destroy Linux.

If I don't die of old age before it's released.

Or Palladium. Or Shared Source. Say, I need more memory to keep track of all the ways folks think they can kill me off.

But this is, I must admit, a new take on the old story. It seems so simple! Just create a proprietary MS Linux, sit back and watch me die. It's such a simple strategy, I wonder why they haven't done it already. You don't suppose there might be a flaw in this scheme do you? (BTW, guys, you're not very thorough. You haven't even finished killing OS/2 yet.) Here's how the article begins, and you can imagine how my eyes got wide when I read it:

"While chatting over dinner with the executives of a middleware company during the recent RSA conference for encryption and security in San Francisco, I heard about a secret project. It concerned the development of a version of Linux that runs smoothly as a task under Windows. The project was completed and then shelved."

Shelved by MS maybe, but the FOSS world has got this working, and unlike the rumoured secret project, you can get it yourself, and see it working.

See me running as a task on Windows (it's not the only option either - QEMU for example.) And has this killed Linux? Err.. no. Because a chain is only as strong as its weakest link - what's the point of running me on a crash-happy virus magnet? Especially one you have to pay for Let's read on:

"The immediate usefulness of Linux running under Windows is obvious. You can use all the Windows drivers for all the peripherals that don't run under Linux."

Firstly, even if I was running on Windows, it doesn't mean I can see all your hardware. Probably I only see your network connection, keyboard, mouse -- things I don't have driver problems with anyway. Case in point: the other day I spent some time running under VMWare. Nice place, I must admit. Some guy plugged in their USB scanner. Did I see the scanner via the Windows driver? No chance. I just had the raw USB data pumped straight through to me. Good job I had SANE to keep me, well, sane.

"That said, there is no way Linux under Windows would be practical with all the overhead involved."

My goodness! QEMU must have been just an amazing dream, then. And VMWare, and BOCHS. . .

The stupidy of this riposte is should be by now obvious. It is as the author is delighted by his own cleverness in trying to miss the point. It really is quite simple. Windows has vastly superior driver compatibility to any other OS. Running an application layer ON TOP of Windows does give access to all the drivers but you obviously have to program it that way. An unmodified X program will not expect to see or find a Windows printing subsystem so naturally cannot use it. However, given that the vast majority of Linux is open source, Microsoft can cherry pick the applications that want AND modify it to their liking.

As for the "amazing dream" statement, if Linux on Windows only worked through emulation, it will be dead in the water before its even begun. Emulation of any sort is a barely adequate solution to any problem. Inherent compatibility and translation complexity problems not to mention performance loss means that it is obviously the wrong solution to the idea (i.e., "Microsoft Linux").

"The idea here would be to cut the driver layer out of Windows and attach it to Linux directly."

Letting me use Windows binary drivers? Now, there's a thought. In fact, it's more than a thought. ndiswrapper and CaptiveNTFS both do this. There's nothing to stop similar projects for other devices: why don't we see them?

Because most of the time, with mainstream devices, I work out of the box. For the "savvy user" and OEM builder, the Linux driver "problem" isn't the problem it was. The days when my poor user had to sweat blood to get me onto a laptop are long gone. Sure, if I get slung onto some random old machine there are still wrinkles, but from what I see on the Windows support forums, that's hardly unique.

This is unfortunately Linux egotism talking and not grounded in fact. Just about EVERY PC system whether they use mainstream components or not work under Windows XP. All things that don't natively work will have drivers that come with the hardware and oddly enough, they are native Windows drivers. Installing drivers under Windows XP is generally a very simple process.

Windows is not just targeted at OEMs or "savvy users". It is targeted at the profitable general consumer market.

But sure, you could go ahead and write ndiswrapper-like code for every sort of device out there -- sounds like a lot of work though. Shouldn't they be fixing bugs in IE instead? And don't most of these funny peripherals only do anything useful in conjunction with a Windows program anyway? Hey, perhaps Microsoft want to help with the Wine project! Hmm, doesn't seem likely somehow. Besides, wouldn't all this driver glue code have to be. . .

The point of grafting the driver subsystem (i.e., making a "native" version of MS Linux rather than through emulation) is that you won't need to use wrapper code for every driver but over the subsystem as a whole. As for "funny" devices, what a silly thing to say. A device is a device and the general consumer expects to be able to buy something and for it to work. You can do this with Windows. You can't with Linux.

"Microsoft would be unable to produce such a product without allowing the other vendors access to the driver code as part of the open-source Linux license arrangement (GPL)."

You read my mind, John!

This is incorrect. If Microsoft writes their own Linux code in the driver subsystem, they don't need to share it. Presumable if they are using the Windows driver database, then the driver binaries themselves are "Windows native" and hence no code needs to be shared either.

Presumably, if MS does commit to a new architecture of OS, they will release "native" core device drivers and luckily for them, they don't even need to slog it on their own as there is plenty of open source out there. If they make their driver subsystem innately incompatible with the exisitng Linux driver systems, then even if the source code needs to be released as OSS, then it may not be automatically translatable to other versions of Linux. Of benefit to THEM, core drivers that are OSS means that there will be benevolent geeks out there that help bugfix and improve them.

Microsoft OSes have always been about maintaing compatibility and then moving people over to the "new" way. Providing compatibility with the existing driver database would be a very clever ploy. Companies will release "new" drivers for new devices in the new system. (e.g., W2k could use NT4 drivers and WinXP can use W2K drivers).

OSS just means that MS must release their code if it is based on OSS code. MS can use this to their ADVANTAGE by releasing key parts of code (that would benefit from community work) and keeping proprietary code proprietary.

"Open-source law is new and not completely tested."

That's true. Those pesky critters keep running away before we get them into court. Except in Germany. . .

"I'm certain that Microsoft got involved with the SCO versus Linux lawsuit partly to reach a better understanding of how to proceed."

I hardly think MS needed SCO for research -- they can afford their own lawyers, and give them a day off per week from filing dodgy patents to bone up on every FOSS license going. But if they did use SCO for research rather than FUD, they can't be happy with the results. SCO's reply to IBM's Counterclaim 8 amounted to a humiliating acceptance of the GPL's validity. All the tough-talking melted away.

I somewhat agree. MS tried to use SCO to harm Linux not study it. However, that doesn't mean that MS isn't considering using Linux as part of a future strategy as well.

"This concept will benefit only Microsoft and probably result in the death of Linux altogether. Let's call it the lopped-off head approach. Microsoft takes its distribution of Linux and sells it as a lopped-off head. That means tearing away the entire top of Linux from the driver layer -- and that would be MS-Linux."

Tearing off my driver layer? That sounds painful! I may support loadable modules, but it isn't the case that the whole driver layer is a loadable module. You would have to do some major re-rengineering to make my whole driver layer detachable, and it would inevitably cause compatibility problems with existing Linux programs, stability problems, etc. Unstable, incompatible, and pointlessly re-engineered. Well, that's "MS-Linux", I suppose.

" . . . the user could pay for the Windows drivers and attach those to MS-Linux, resulting in an OS that had the PnP benefits of Windows."

Woah, John, I think I'll have to throw an Oops there. Your logic just dereferenced a null pointer. You've taken the whole driver layer out of Linux, and now you're throwing in a Windows driver and expect it to work? That's like attaching wheels to a car with an engine but no transmission.You'll have to write a replacement driver layer that accepts Windows drivers and allows them to work with the Linux kernel, just like ndiswrapper does for the limited case of some wifi cards, in fact.

But John, you don't seriously think this replacement driver layer wouldn't be a derived work of the kernel, do you?

A replacement driver layer MAY WELL NOT be a derived work. After all, there is no reason why MS need to keep an unaltered Linux kernel at all. A MS-Linux kernel may need to be kept as GPL but MS proprietary subsystems interfacing with this kernel can be kept clear of GPL. MS would be clever to keep a certain degree of incompatibility with ordinary Linux while allow compatibility with most Linux applications.

"I see no reason why this could not be kept outside the GPL and actually sold as a licensed product exclusive to Microsoft."

You don't? You must have flunked GPL 101, then. Go sit at the back of PJ's remedial class. I believe registration is still open for her summer school class. And don't talk to that kid Darl -- he's a troublemaker and never pays attention.

"Since plenty of commercial products 'attach' to Linux and seem to be protected from the GPL, I have to assume that the scenario I describe is possible."

You do know the difference between "mere aggregation" and "derived work" don't you, John? Have you been paying attention in GPL class, or just drawing beetles on the back of your exercise book?

As before. The author here seems to not understand GPL.

"Microsoft's MS-Linux would quickly become the dominant Linux and the company would begin to profit from all the open-source development work that would go into Linux."

Don't you mean: "The MS driver layer would have to be GPL'ed, everyone would use it for those troublesome peripherals, one less reason would exist to ever buy Windows, and MS would lose money?"

"Once the developers saw that happen they'd stop working on Linux and it would die."

I think you meant to write: "Once the MS developers realize they can't get round the GPL this way, they will stop working on the 'headless chicken' project and it will die."

Or do you mean that as soon as a FOSS project benefits the Windows platform, no one works on it any more? That's why we've seen the demise of FireFox, OpenOffice, Apache, PHP.... oh, wait... we haven't.

Stupidity and more stupidity.

The crux of the issue is that the free nature of Linux means that MS could well gut it and choose the bits they like and graft on MS proprietary parts. Consider it the MS/Linux version of Mac OS X and BSD.

Will people keep using Linux? Yes. Just like some people continue to use BSD. However, this could be a reasonable strategy that MS uses to stem the inexorable haemorrhage of users from Windows to the constantly improving Linux.

and more rant...

All the arguments against a "MS Linux" can equally be applied to a "Mac BSD". Needless to say, they don't stick. Personally I don't see what is so terrible with MS basing a consumer OS on a Linux kernel.

Regards.

[OverBurn]

I'm still a Linux newbie, but I've tried several distros.

Fedora Core 3, I hated the gnome desktop. I didn't try it with the KDE desktop, didn't want to reinstall at the time. Fedora was the only distro I couldn't get to shared folders on my network, so I got rid of it after a couple of hours of frustration.

Suse 9.2 has the best HD install and setup I've tried. I really liked it's KDE desktop and it was fairly easy to network.

I love all the Knoppix Live CD distros but I've never did a HD install with it. Hands down the best of the live boot CD's though.

Mepis Live CD version was really nice, I still have to mess with it some more.

Linspire is super easy to install, use and network, but IMO It's kinda a b*stard version of Linux that just wants your money for extras IMO. If I gotta pay, I'll stick with WinXP.

I'm going to give Xandros 3.0 a try real soon, it looks promising.

After every Linux distro I try, I appreciate windows so much more.

[vitualis]

I hear you Overburn!

I have to admit, that this is the first time in using Linux (in particular, Knoppix) that I don't feel a sense of relief in going back to Windows.

There are a number of things that I like about Knoppix/Debian that I don't have with Windows. Firstly, I quite like KDE and the way I've setup the desktop does look "nicer" than in Windows. Second is the fantastic apt-get system. Very nice.

Knoppix still has a number of things that I don't like which may or may not break it for me in the long run. Firstly, still some unexpected buggy interface problems. Secondly is hardware compatibility (still trying to get Wi-Fi card to work).

Regards.

[vitualis]

Still sort of using Knoppix but starting to branch out again. I tried the live CD of Ubuntu and it is a nice distribution but I once again confirm that I don't like GNOME.

It seems to me that KDE is more heavily influenced by Windows Explorer/WinXP while GNOME looks like it's trying to emulate MacOS 9. KDE wins for me.

Given that I'm pretty sure that my "ideal" Linux disto would probably be based on KDE + Debian, I have SimplyMEPIS a spin. Of the Knoppix-ish distros I've tried, this one seemed the nicest and had a nice install function. That being said, it seemed a little bit resource heavy but it solves most of the criticisms I have of Knoppix.

The only other distro that I really want to try is Xandros 3 OCE. This is the only version that can truly potentially draw me away from Windows with CrossOver office.

Has anybody any opinions/thoughts/experiences with Xandros 3?

Regards.

[disturbed1]

Xandros kind of looks like Win98 to me.

Instead of the usual rip off of XP that KDE does, Xandros has lowered a little of the polish and kiddie eye candy. You can turn this on through settings.

The OCE versions limits your Desktop experience. The included burner is limited in speed, with no DVD burning support, and Opera (ad supported) as the default browser. The full version with Cross over allows you to install and run most windows programs. The main difference I noticed with the non free Cross Over Office, compared to the free Wine, is that Xandros added a custom menu holder, and nice install/remove scripts.

A few apt-get installs would fix most of this.

Since you seem to want the Windows XP experience inside Linux :P Slackware, Vector Linux 5.0, Suse, Mandrake, and Kubuntu all have highly polished KDE desktops. Slax is a live CD based off Slackware with KDE desktop. Slackware has slapt-get and swaret, which are the closest you'll get to apt-get without running debian. Slackware and Vector aren't newbie friendly, and may require custom config setups and the compiling of a few apps.

If know what you want, Debian + KDE (3.3 or 3.4), take a look at this http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=independence

[vitualis]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I have not ever gotten even one app running under Wine (admittedly, I didn't try very hard).

Does anyone know as to whether ActiveSync (i.e., for Pocket PCs) with Outlook works under CrossOver office? It is one functionality that I cannot live without.

Regards.

[vitualis]

Finally finished downloading Xandros 3.01 OCE (PAINFUL with dialup and Bittorrent)...

I have to say, this is a very very nice KDE + Debian OS. The OCE no longer uses opera but Firefox as the main browser! Thunderbird is the default e-mail program!

Unlike the other Knoppix-based/Knoppix-like OSs, the "menu" system is not chock-full of repetitious crap. The "first run" wizard is nice (though somewhat simplistic).

Xandros Networks is quite good though I wish that during downloads there is a progress bar of some sort (UI is important).

The Xandros File Manager is reasonable though somewhat clunky. Seems to me its caught somewhere in between Windows Explorer of Win98 and Windows 2000 era. The GUI is not as good or functional as konqueror but it is less bloated (and the in-built functionality of connecting to Windows shares is intuiative).

CrossOver Office is good. I managed to install OfficeXP without any real issue and it works too. The only issue I have with it is that the load up time for Windows programs is somewhat slow (though it is quick enough once running). Office is still a real issue for me under Linux. Although I'm fond of OpenOffice, it still has significant format parsing problems (especially once you have logos or watermarks). In essence, my templates for letterheads generally do not turn out "right" under OpenOffice (while they work under basically all versions of MS Office back to MS Office 97).

I was disappointed that ActiveSync does not work properly under CrossOver Office which means no Pocket PC synching with Outlook under Linux.

In general, Xandros 3.01 OCE seems to be a very usuable distro. From what I can tell, most of its "limitations" should be able to be overcome by installing a few additional proggie with apt.

It is currently my favourite distro. If CrossOver Office worked for ActiveSync, I would probably buy it and could ditch Windows.

Regards.

[Garibaldi]

I'm very happy you found a distro that you liked! Like distrubed1 said I too would have recommended Slackware or Vector, just for the simplicity of the distro. But obviously your looking more for a distro with less configuration (I can't blame you!!), and Xandros is one of those distros.