.m2t or .ts to iMovie possible?

[Ti-maniac]

I am having a tough time importing .m2t and .ts files into iMovie HD. These HD files, typically 1920 x 1088 or 1280 x 1088 are not visible to iMovie HD's import formats.

The only way that I have found that others do it is to use MPEG streamclip to generate a .mov or mpeg2 file, and then import these into iMovie. Both steps take hours for very short clips thus yielding the process impractical.

The new 0.0.9s appears to have new conversion opportunities such as h264, but this encoding appears slow as well.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

[dylanpank@msn.com]

iMovieHD is designed to work with the HDV camera format only, which is MPEG2, 19Mbs (1280*720p pixel aspect 1:1) or 25Mbs (1440*1080i, pixel aspect 1.33) long GOP (12 frames for 50Hz, 15 frames for 59.98Hz) with 384Kbs MP2 audio.

As far as I know, only the Sony and JVC HDV cams create files that match this spec. DVHS is a close match but not spot on. If your clips have AC3 audio this may be another problem. Also iMovieHD is only designed to capture HDV from the camera, not import from the desktop, though some people have managed to do this.

If your clips do not meet the specs then iMovieHD will reject them. What are the sources of the clips you're trying to import and what are theeir other specs, rather than just frame size?

iMovie converts the clips to the AppleIntermediateCodec so, even if you have exactly the right specs on your HDV files, there is still a conversion process (which is only realtime on dual 2.5Ghz G5s).

[csdesigns]

Not that I'm challenging you Dylan, but where does it state that the HDV MPEG-2 is converted to AppleIntermediateCodec? I've been trying to find out more info on this, as I initially suspected it was the case, but haven't seen any official Apple documentation to verify this.

[dylanpank@msn.com]

It's fairly common knowledge on the 'Net, (check out www.HDVinfo.net, www.hdforindies.com or www.2-pop.com), and while admittedly that isn't official Apple word, they are fairly authoritative (somewhere up the scale than "a guy in a bar" in the credibility stakes).

At the London VideoForum last week I spoke with representatives from Apple demoing iMovie HD and FCE HD. We talked extensively about the AIC. Its datarate is about 4 times HDV, and it requires a dual 2.5Ghz G5 to capture in realtime and there's a render stage before returning to the camera.

Should FCP5 also work with HDV (I guess it will after NAB 2005 in April) it will undoubtedly use the same approach.

[csdesigns]

Ouch. That's a real blow then. Apple's MPEG-2 encoder is a worst of breed IMHO. I have done A LOT of testing using pretty much every mac software encoder out there for MPEG-2, and Apple always comes in last. I don't even recommend it to cheapskates, instead referring them to ffmpegX. The difference between Apple's encoder and those from BitVice, MainConcept, and Compression Master are light years ahead of what Apple is producing. This includes doing encodes from Uncompressed HD, film, and DVCPRO HD, where admittedly, Apple's encoder is passable, but no where near the best.

[csdesigns]

After reading a workflow solution for HDV and FCP w/ iMovie, is it true in my understanding that when you print back to tape, the video is encoded back from AIC to HDV in realtime? It sounds like that is software based, or is it hardware ecoded by the camera through Firewire?

[dylanpank@msn.com]

HDV cameras require a pretty specific transport stream, and encoding to HDV from AIC is MUCH slower than the other way, so I'm afraid it's edit, export the whole timeline (in nothing anywhere close to realtime) then print to tape.

You could output the movie in AIC (from FCP or FCE) and take that to FFmpegX (it should take it with Decode with Quicktime enabled) to make HDV compatible streams, and then send it to the camera with Virtual DVHS rather than iMovie.

Maybe I'll email Major and suggest an HDV for print to camera preset for the next release of FFmpegX.

[csdesigns]

OK. I think I got it now. Thanks for the links. I knew it would be a challenge to do native HDV editing with QT, but I was really hoping for a real native MPEG-2 solution. I currently have to convert my 720p HDV to BlackMagic 10bit anyway, and this (iMovie HD and FCE HD) does give a better solution to printing back to tape, but the thought of using Apple's encoder for anything professional makes me shiver.

[dylanpank@msn.com]

Actually you CAN import demuxed HDV streams into FCP (if you have the Quicktime MPEG2 component), you just can't EDIT them as there isn't even realtime playback in FCP.

Try looking at http://www.lumierehd.com./workflow.php . Their solution involves editing in an offline/online procedure, so it's rather time (and HD space) consuming - but it WOULD offer the best quality, as an uncompressed master with effects could be made direct from the native .m2v streams.

There are freeware tools that can do what Lumiere does (FFmpegX could demux and transcode to DV for example, but not .mov), but there would be no automated functions or XML import and they may well not be as reliable.

[csdesigns]

Yes, I understand that you can import .m2v tracks into FCP and render them to other formats. What I was hoping for was native .m2t or .ts editing in FCP. The Lumiere option is no different than my current solution of demuxing HDV and converting it into BlackMagic 10bit (I use MPEG StreamClip). This allows for good integration with my Beta SP and DVCPRO footage as well. The XML functions of Lumiere are admirable, and really the only thing I think I miss, but I had a hard time justifying the cost when StreamClip works quite well and I knew Apple was coming soon to the market with their own solution.

[dylanpank@msn.com]

Well, apparently Avid have chosen to implement native MPEG editing in their next release of Avid Xpress Pro and I guess the soon to be renamed Xpress DV.

My guess is (and it is just a guess) that at NAB, Apple and Blackmagic decklink will announce full realtime support for HDV via AIC with FCP5 and decklink hardware.

This wouldn't be possible with native MPEG2.

Dylan

[csdesigns]

What do you mean by full realtime support with Blackmagic and HDV via AIC? I fail to see how this is any better than the current Firewire solution. Isn't AIC supposed to be capable of some realtime stuff in FCE with the appropriate hardware?... Unless you are implying that Blackmagic will release a realtime HDV encoder card or box to print back to tape or camera. The guys at DeckLink are awesome, but considering that they don't currently have a product that even does SD MPEG-2 encoding, I think that may be a long shot. Now, I could see maybe some vendor like OptiBase stepping up to the plate though.

[dylanpank@msn.com]

Sorry, my mistake, I meant realtime output using the SDI or component outs on decklink HDcards, I guess I was thinking of something different, like realtime monitoring on a video monitor, etc. What I meant was that AIC would be supported in decklink, not native HDV, but I didn;t make that clear.

It would improve the current situation as the Apple HDV products will only encode to AIC while capturing, (hopefully FCP will add timecode capability to this too). With other systems (MPEG streamclip, LumiereHD) you must capture first, then demux, then transcode, then import into FCP. If decklink supported AIC, then capture to computer with realtime 3rd party monitoring would be a one stage process, and if you were recording via SDI to a HD deck (be it DVCproHD or HDCAM) again it would save a lot of time too. What remains to be seen is how much quality iof any is lost when going from HDV to AIC, and then via SDI to HDCAM or DVCproHD.

Currently you can only monitor HDV offline in DV res via firewire and a DV bridge, or in DVCproHD via the decklink cards. For the desktop video crowd (like me) the benefits wouldn't be that great, unless someone started bringing out sub $1000 HD monitors with SDI in.

[csdesigns]

Ok. That makes more sense. Yeah, direct AIC output would be nifty. That's the main reason why I convert my HDV to BlackMagic 10bit currently, for previewing with my DeckLink HD. Timecode with FCP would be highly welcomed as well as you mentioned.

BTW, with MPEG StreamClip, you can go straight from HDV source to transcode, no need to demux first. But, a straight encode to AIC while capturing would be more ideal. Now this Apple solution is starting to show some merit. Its not exactly what I was hoping for, but it seems to be pretty decent.

As far as quality of AIC conversion, with iMovie (very brief testing) I didn't think the images were as true as they were when transcoding to BlackMagic. I noticed some slight banding in the background of some of my images that wasn't there on the HDV source. And I didn't get around to trying the encoder to HDV yet.

And last but not least: LOL! Ha! A sub $1000 HD mon w/ SDI? I wish it were true, but I wouldn't be surprised if I never see that in my life time.

[Ti-maniac]

I guess I can conclude that converting from .m2t to iMovie is not realistically possible.

[csdesigns]

I really haven't spent too much time with iMovie HD yet (<5 minutes) to say. If I can find the time, I will try some extensive testing this weekend, but I expect to be pretty busy. The workflow for capturing and migtrating the captures to FCP that has been posted on the web seems pretty viable for the time being, if the quality remains in tact. We'll see. But, I don't think iMovie is going to be a good tool for converting previously captured .m2t's, no.

[MacProducers]

You can convert m2t and MPEG program streams using DropDV. It will create DV streams and create an iMovie project for you.

http://www.dropdv.com

[csdesigns]

That's not the point. The point is to edit in as high a resolution format as possible. Ideally it would be native HDV. Apple obviously isn't doing that though. The conversion of HDV to DV would loose way too much information, especially if you had to print back to tape. 1080i, for instance, is 6 times the resolution of DV.

[Ti-maniac]

You can convert m2t and MPEG program streams using DropDV. It will create DV streams and create an iMovie project for you.

http://www.dropdv.com

Dropdv apparently will not save DV files generated from .m2t streams. Several attempts failed although it went through the process.

[dylanpank@msn.com]

If you just want to edit at SD resolution, FFmpegX will do that, though FFmpegX at this point can't properly scale fields. To do that you'll need MPEG streamclip, though I think you'll need the Quicktime MPEG 2 component as well.

[Ti-maniac]

What I was hoping to do was find an easy way to edit commercials out of HD .m2t or .ts files, such as recorded football games and not convert to SD. I have tried MPEG streamclip. Although you can edit commercials with it, it is difficult to do so with large files like football games. I was hoping that import into iMovie HD would make this easier.