Blu-ray, HD-DVD Manufacturers Announce DVD-Compatible High-D

[beric3236]

Author: ERIK GRUENWEDEL
egruenwedel@advanstar.com
Posted: December 29, 2004
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Japanese electronics manufacturers have announced prototype DVD products compatible with both Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD formats.

Memory-Tech Corp. and Toshiba Corp. unveiled a dual-layer ROM (read-only) disc that features both 4.7GB DVD capacity and 15GB HD-DVD capacity.

The disc would allow consumers to view DVD content on a standard DVD player and, after purchasing an HD-DVD player, view high-definition content from the same disc.

NEC said it had developed a DVD player capable of playing back HD-DVD, DVD and CD with a single optical head.

Toshiba and Memory-Tech, together with Sanyo Corp. and NEC, late last month launched the HD-DVD Promotion Group, designed to counter the Blu-ray Disc Association, whose 70-plus members include Dell, Hewlett-Packard, Hitachi, LG Electronics, Mitsubishi Electric Corp., Panasonic (Matsushita Electric), Pioneer Corp., Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics Co., Sharp Corp., Sony Corp., TDK Corp., JVC and Thomson.

JVC announced a Blu-ray/DVD disc with 33.5GB capacity, including 8.5GB DVD capacity and 25GB Blu-ray capacity.

A JVC spokesperson said retail price and availability were still to be determined. Initial estimates reportedly have the dual-disc format costing up to 30 percent more than current DVD discs.

Can I say "Believe it when I See it"

[Nilfennasion]

JVC announced a Blu-ray/DVD disc with 33.5GB capacity, including 8.5GB DVD capacity and 25GB Blu-ray capacity.

That would be more like it. I feel a disc size of 40GB is more realistic for HD content, but this dual-format size is more like it.

[DJRumpy]

The only reason the consortium sold out for the HD-DVD 15GB format was due to costs associated with retooling existing manufacturing facilities. At least that was the excuse they gave. The only problem is the fact that the consumer market has seen Blue-ray. Why buy a 15 GB technology, when you can get twice that storage, and more with a better technology? There's a good reason Blue-ray has 70+ companies behind it

I am curious about this new player, since it mentions only 4.3 and 15 GB capacities, yet it says it's Blue-ray compatible. Blue-ray uses 27 GB for a single layer, and 23 GB for the re-writable media. Where did the other 8GB go?

[lenti_75]

I"M SO SICK OF THIS......

why just can't be just ONE into this ??? there will be like the recent war - VS + format.

it should be only ONE format, either HD or Blue Ray, not both.

obviously Blue ray will win, just because of more storage space.

i think I'll go back to VHS....... **** high def

[Nilfennasion]

Oh right... like VHS didn't have this format argument in its early days.

Come to think of it, so did DVD (anyone remember proposed formats like MMCD?).

[cyflyer]

All I wonna know is, Will our stock libraries of DVD-R's be playable on these new generation players, or not ?

[Nilfennasion]

They will be if the makers want the format to go to glory instead of fall on its arse.

[DJRumpy]

Definately. You couldn't get the public to buy into it otherwise. All of the new designs are now also talking of incorporating DVD, HD-DVD, and Blue-ray. Will it never end?

[Nilfennasion]

Hopefully, it won't. A bit of progress is good. Although the progression from DVD-Video to HD-DVD is moving a little too fast, the concepts of the 1.33:1 screen and VHS have been obsolete for 50 and 15 years, respectively.

Which is why I would prefer to see HD-DVD being progressive. It's high time we got rid of interlacing.

[DJRumpy]

No, I meant these endless format wars. I could care less about HD-DVD. It's an inferior format, with no future. Even the consortium itself admits it's just a stopgap until they get everyone refitted for Blue-ray. Why waste everyone's time? I do hate to break it to you though. The hi-def formats will still use 1080i. Your still stuck with interlaced video at the highest resolutions. Ditching interlaced would require that they ditch those modes on HDTV. Since that hardware is also new, that's not going to happen until whatever itteration they come out with next. The depressing part is that we've had the current standards for how long? I will say though, that 1080i looks absolutely fantastic on my HDTV

[spiderman2k1]

"Nilfennasion"

Oh right... like VHS didn't have this format argument in its early days. rolleyes.gif

Come to think of it, so did DVD (anyone remember proposed formats like MMCD?).

Hi whats MMCD was it AVI format on CDR or DVD or some thing? Thanks.

[Gillies]

which format is superior to the other doesnt matter, remember the BETA vs VHS format war. Beta was far superior to VHS but JVC promoted it much better and Sony were too greedy with there licencing. hopefully they learned from that, though looking at nearly every product sony comes out with they seem to have their own fromat (ie. ATRAC3). i hope blu-ray wins this war, but i fear sony will stuff it up again and the 2 competing formats will get too ancy and promote the technology too soon and it'll be the next laserdisc.

[Nilfennasion]

Before DVD-Video was an agreed-to standard, there were two other digital video formats proposed by members of the Consortium. I cannot remember which members it was, but there were two proposed formats in addition to DVD-Video. One of them was MMCD (MultiMedia Compact Disc).

One company even had the gall to propose VCD as a sell-through format, and was promptly laughed out of the meeting.

The difference with DVD-Video as opposed to VHS/Betamax or HD-DVD/Blu-ray is that the companies chose to have the format war in private.

[DJRumpy]

A little history in case anyone is interested...

MMCD was introduced in Dec of 1994. It was similar to DVD-Video, in that it used MPEG-2, but many of the technologies involved (and of course, the patents), were owned by Sony and Phillips. A month later, Toshiba, and Warner Bros introduced the SD format, which could hold up to 18 GB. Of course neither side wanted to give up the lucrative money they'd get from the patents they held. The movie studios were the ones who forced both sides to go with DVD-Video.

DVD-Video, is actually almost the same thing as SD, just modified a bit. They just threw in some of the MMCD technology to make sure everyone got a piece of the pie.

Because DVD-Video has it's roots in SD, there are actually four different flavors of dvd, up to 18 GB per disk. DVD-5 (Single Sided Single Layer), DVD-10 (Double-Sided Single Layer), DVD-9 (Single Sided Dual Layer), and DVD-18 (Double-Sided Dual Layer).

DVD-5's, DVD-9's, and DVD-10's are the ones we most often see, with DVD-10's being a bit more rare. These are more common with DVD's offering both Widescreen and Fullscreen versions. I'm sure there are probably a few movies actually burned onto DVD-18, but I certainly don't own any

[adam]

There are more variations then that actually. There is DVD 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 14, and 18.

I own a few DVD-18's, several DVD-14's too.

[Nilfennasion]

It is widely understood that dual sided discs = poor sales in Australia (and I don't doubt many European markets). Ergo, DVD-10s and DVD-18s are very rare in PAL countries. From memory, the only DVD-18 sold commercially in Australia was Ben Hur.

[lenti_75]

Which is why I would prefer to see HD-DVD being progressive. It's high time we got rid of interlacing.

this is something I can't wait for.......hate f...interlacing shit.

[adam]

I'm sure HD-DVDs will be progressively encoded as they are intended to be played on progressive scan devices.

DVDs are already progressive though. You only view them interlaced on standard televisions which don't support progressive video. If you've got a progressive tv and a progressive scan dvd player, you are already getting progressive video.

I agree though, it will be nice when interlaced tvs are phased out altogether. This will also slowly phase out 4:3 tvs which is a very good thing in my opinion, not because 16:9 is necessarily better but just so that we can have one standard so I don't have to worry about getting P&S DVDs for Christmas anymore.

[Nilfennasion]

Actually, I've talked with a number of authoring supervisors who have told me that the DVD-Video spec requires interlaced output. The video on the disc is not interlaced, but outputting it without interlacing apparently requires a circumvention of the specifications, if that makes any sense. The reason why this was adopted in the original specifications, oddly enough, was for compatibility. when those old technologies get entrenched enough, they don't go easily...

[adam]

The specs do not require interlaced output, they just require an interlaced stream (aka a field stream.) This just means that the frames can be split into fields. This is so that the fields can be separated for interlaced playback on devices that require it. If encoded with frame pictures (two fields but decoded at the same time), as most DVDs are, then the video can be played back entirely progressivly (decode/display both fields at same time) through a progressive scan dvd player, on a progressive scan playback device. The player uses line doubling to prevent flicker, basically the same thing that happens in the theatre with film. I can't see how a new format could do any different, the limitation is with the number of frames originally sampled.

[deh707]

maybe in a couple years, the "red-ray" discs will hold 4.38 terrabytes

[adam]

Hmm, red-ray disks are what we use right now

It'd have to be a color with a shorter wavelength then blue.

[MOVIEGEEK]

Hmm, red-ray disks are what we use right now

It'd have to be a color with a shorter wavelength then blue.

UV would work but you would have to use sunblock on the discs.

[Gillies]

oooh... what about magenta?

[Bucky_Katt]

X-rays and microwaves have a very short wavelength

[edDV]

The specs do not require interlaced output, they just require an interlaced stream (aka a field stream.) This just means that the frames can be split into fields. This is so that the fields can be separated for interlaced playback on devices that require it. If encoded with frame pictures (two fields but decoded at the same time), as most DVDs are, then the video can be played back entirely progressivly (decode/display both fields at same time) through a progressive scan dvd player, on a progressive scan playback device. The player uses line doubling to prevent flicker, basically the same thing that happens in the theatre with film. I can't see how a new format could do any different, the limitation is with the number of frames originally sampled.

The reason the DVD-Video is structured for a "interlaced stream (aka a field stream)" was to permit super cheap interlace DVD players to be produced that just played the raw output into a composite encoder with minimal processing.

For frame based material (film and computer animation) the other field was included so that the full frame could be reconstructed. Progressive players took on the frame reconstruction burden since it was assumed they would be providing other features like 3:2 conversion and could be sold at a premium.

There was some reason behind the madness

[doppletwo]

Couldn't they fit even more on one disc if they used a stronger vidoe Compression format like DivX6 (Which can do HD rwsolutions) in conjunction with Blu/HD DVD technology.

Is there any talk among the groups on switching from MPEG2 to something leaner and meaner.

Higher up on the thread people are talking about DVD14 and DVD18. I looked through my collection and found one DVD14 its The Pianist. Side A is dual layer movie content side B is bonus features on a single layer.

Most flippers are DVD10 though.

And I know it takes more processing power to decompress DivX6 than MPEG2 but there are cheap stand alone players that can do up to DivX5.

[dvdguy4]

Anything for a buck, thats what I say. DVD is still a fairly new format to some people and they should be able to get used to it. Most people will still buy the normal dvd

[edDV]

doppletwo

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray includes Mpeg4 based technologies including Microsoft VC1 and various H.264. These will allow many more hours of HDTV per disc.

[dvdguy4]

Whats next DVD on a floppy