Capturing Hardware Advise Needed

[anitract]

BACKGROUND
I have approximately 50 VHS and 8mm tapes (home videos) that I am going to be moving to DVDs for my family. Tapes were made from between 1980 and 2004. As such, quality ranges from "iffy" (2nd gens possible) to passable to good. I've been reading the forums, etc for about 3 weeks researching and educating myself. Now I post.

MY GOAL
Like anyone else here my goal is simple: the best possible transfer that I can make for the amount of money I'm willing to spend.

BUDGET
I would LOVE to spend no more than $300 dollars, BUT I am willing to spend upwards of $400 (or more? *sad face*) on all the equipment needed to do this well.

EQUIPMENT
I just built a new computer with a good DVD Burner and excellent hardware, so I am ok there. What I need is a capture card, VHS, and possibly a TBC unit.

WHAT I AM CONSIDERING
I have narrowed it down to the three capture cards: 1. Canopus ADVC-50 - $130 (academic discount); 2. DataVideo DAC-100 - ~$180; 3. Hauppauge PVR-250 ~$130. I am leaning heavily towards the Canopus card, as I THINK I want to transfer my files via digital video, instead of mpeg (am I crazy?).

In terms of VHS players, I have a 3-year-old Sanyo that cost $120 or so at the time. I am looking to upgrade. I understand that S-VHS players are preferred, and JVC is very highly recommended around here; however, the higher-end models (ex: JVC HR-S9911U) are a bit pricey for my budget. The JVC SR-V10U looks nice (although still a bit costly @ $260).

TBC is something I am unsure of. My two considerations are the favorites around here: the DataVideo TBC-1000 (~$280) and the Tvone AVT-8710 (~$200). If I got a higher end VCR I might not even need one, but that is debatable and can only be judged in a tape-by-tape basis.

NOW, TO DECIDE!?
If I get the Canopus card I want, that leaves me $170 - $270 to spend elsewhere. As I see it, I could do the following:
1. Get the JVC SR-V10U and no TBC unit
2. Get a "lower-end" JVC/Brand-X and save my money.
3. Get the Tvone AVT-8710 and use the VCR I currently have.
4. Say "screw the budget" because I will not get "quality" results unless I spend more.

Can anyone give me a bit of advice here? What would you do if you were me, given everything I just laid out? I am open to suggestions not listed, as I am definitly new to this.

[yoda313]

Hello,

3. Hauppauge PVR-250 ~$130

BINGO! The only card you'll need. UNLESS you want to record in AVI. Then get another card.

BUT the 250 is EXCELLENT and I've had mine for more than 2 years and LOVE IT

Plus it automatically removes macrovision from commercial tapes (that you own of course ) without hacks

Kevin

[anitract]

Mainly, what is leading me away from the Hauppauge (mpeg transfers) is the possible video-audio syncing issues, which I suppose one of the stand-alone TBCs would help...

Anyway, the Canopus has some sort of built-in voice matching technology, which would be good if I didn't get a seperate TBC...I think. lol

[yoda313]

Hello,

what is leading me away from the Hauppauge (mpeg transfers) is the possible video-audio syncing issues

Just to let you know I've NEVER had a synch issue from recording. Just editing which isn't the fault of the card but the software used.

In the end it's your choice but don't dismiss the wintv pvr250 prematurely

www.shspvr.com is an excellent source for info on the hauppauge series of capture cards

Kevin
[/quote]

[jameshgross]

I have used the Hauppauge products for many years and I am very pleased with the results. Here is how I transfer tapes to DVD.

Tape player -> Home theater -> Monitor out(big screen TV) -> Hauppauge
card -> WinTV 2000 -> HD -> TMPEGenc DVD Author -> DVD

[racerxnet]

If you are going to edit any of the footage, then you will need to capture as AVI. The Hauppauge will record as a MPEG2 file only.

MAK

[yoda313]

If you are going to edit any of the footage, then you will need to capture as AVI. The Hauppauge will record as a MPEG2 file only.

MAK

Hello,

Yes AVI is nicer to edit with but MPEG is STILL editable FYI

Kevin

[anitract]

Okay, I will not discount the Hauppage card. If I decide to do mpegs rather than avi's, its my card.

I guess I was under the assumption that syncing was more of an issue when dealing with cards capturing to mpegs, than to those going to avis. So is it correct saying that they both have an equal chance of getting out of sync if a TBC is not used?

My main concern right now is the VCR / TBC hardware, as that is what I am most confused about (see original post).

[yoda313]

Hello,

I'll say again I've never had a synch issue with the hauppauge and I DON'T have a tbc. Just an old JVC stereo vcr.

Kevin

[anitract]

Does introducing a TBC into the hardware chain (vcr -> tbc -> capture card) degrade the signal in any way since the signal must pass through 2 sets of cables and the tbc before hitting the capture card (instead of just vcr -> capture card)? Stupid question, maybe, but something I've been curious about.

[lordsmurf]

You really need a high end VCR -and- a full-frame TBC.

You should add ATI All In Wonder cards to the list. DV is not a good capture format, but an uncompressed or "lossless" AVI is excellent. MPEG is a decent capture format on ATI or Hauppauge hardware, though editing is limited on MPEG.

Take a look at this too (what's best):
http://www.digitalfaq.com/newbiesguide.htm

[anitract]

lordsmurf,

What do you mean by "DV is not a good capture format, but an uncompressed or "lossless" AVI is excellent"?

Do you just mean that Digital Video is best captured with a lossless avi codec - i.e. one that uses no compression?

[lordsmurf]

DV is type of compression format. NTSC DV uses 4:1:1 compression (among others) that just does not look good when converting VHS. (Note: PAL is 4:2:0, just like DVD, so PAL DV is fine!) People love to disagree, but the problems are there and well-documented. People with a keen eye for video can often spot a DV transfer right away.

AVI is not a "format". It's a "wrapper" or "container" format. It holds video formats that cannot exist on their own filetype. Hence "codec" to read them.

HuffYUV is one so-called "lossless" codec, as is MJPEG (not MPEG, but Motion JPEG or MJPEG). These have no such compression artifacts as seen in DV.

You may want to check these out:
- http://www.digitalfaq.com/capture/dv.htm
- http://www.digitalfaq.com/capture/avivsmpeg.htm

[xxiangg]

If you need to do any editing, don't go with MPEG. Although MPEG is
editable. For your budget, I do not know if it is enough for any
software which is decent for MPEG. If you just do simple transfer
from tapes to DVDs without any editing, directly capture to MPEG is
fine. It actually saves you a lot of time.

But I still perfer using DV pass. To play arround with MPEG files with
cheap softwares is pain.

[jameshgross]

MPEG are easy to edit with WOMBLE.

[xxiangg]

BTW, there are many experts in this forum offer your many very
good suggestions. But if you ask them how much they have spent
in total on both hardware and software to do their work, it is not
within your budget. It may not even close to your budget.

[wwjd]

I have converted a substantial number of home VHS and home 8mm tape to DVD. The main reason for doing this was to not only preserve the video a bit longer but to make it more convenient to view. Hence, I needed to be able to cut, create chapters, insert transitions, make menus and so on. By far and away it is easier to do this type of cutting and editing using *avi.

Yes there are software apps that are pretty good at cutting up mpegs and inserting chapter points but you should always verify audio sync once you have messed with an mpeg.

I have no experience with the Canopus 50 card but I do have an ADVC-100 that has worked flawlessly for me. The proprietary DV that the ADVC produces looks great to me and it is easy to work with and edit. File sizes are around 13Gb per hr, which is managable. Uncompressed avi will be around 65Gb per hr.

My vote hands down is to go with *.avi if you want maximum flexability in terms of cutting, trimming and editing.

At some point in the process however you will have to go to mpeg so be sure to choose a software that does a good job of encoding. Not all software encoders perform the same.

[anitract]

Wow, so many opinions on this, which I knew just from reading over the past few weeks. It's ok though, I like a challenge. Obviously, looking at the first link lordsmurf posted, the "best" hardware will cost too much money for me...which means I must compromise in some way. hmm...

The "DV capturing FAQ & myth guide" link was interesting. If all the points there are accurate, then I definitely have "learned" several pretty big misconceptions about DV as "fact" just from browsing these forums.

Maybe I will get an mpeg capture card instead of a DV transfer card, afterall.

lordsmurf, can I ask you 2 questions:
1. Why, exactly, do you prefer mpeg over DV?
2. The ATI AIW cards now have me interested. There are so many out there - which one do you use (the ATI AIW RADEON 9600 looks interesting to me LINK)?

[anitract]

Got some pretty strong views from both sides here. lol

wwjd, you seem to like DV the best. Would you say that the "proprietary DV that the ADVC produces" looks better or worse than an mpeg capture? Of course, this is debatable, but I was wondering what your take was. Do you see any of the DV misconceptions pointed out in lordsmurf's links?

[lordsmurf]

ANSWER 1.

Oh, I never said I prefer MPEG over DV.

I use a LOT of HuffYUV, uncompressed and MJPEG AVI too. Mostly for restoration or editing work. It is later converted to MPEG if it is burned to DVD.

MPEG is what I use for conversion. And ALL DVD's are eventually encoded to MPEG. If it's a simple conversion, skip the encode step and go straight for DVD.

DV is a wonderful shooting format. Just not very good at analog conversion.


ANSWER 2.

ATI All In Wonder (AIW) cards have not changed much in the past couple of years. They are hybrid hardware-software encoders. As CPU's have gotten more powerful, so has their software and the features in it. They use ATI Theatre chips.

The ATI AIW 7000 and everything up the ATI AIW 9800 pretty much capture the same. The numbers are ONLY for graphics. If you do not play video games or use CAD-type software, nothing to concern yourself with. I use the ATI AIW 7200 card.

Never waste time using the software CD. Go to www.ati.com and get the latest drivers, and at least ATI MMC 8.7.

These cards can be gotten used off eBay for $50 quite often. Just be sure it comes with the purple wires (plugs for the tv/VCR cables, input sources).

The one things to note about ATI (and just any digital card in general), is it may falsely see anti-copy (like Macrovision, MV) and prevent recording. A TBC (timebase corrector) is what you need. This will probably be required with anything you buy anyway. A TBC will remove signal errors, and is good to have, regardless of MV or false MV detection.

[lordsmurf]

Budget of $400

1 - ATI AIW for $50 from eBay.com
2 - Refurbished JVC 9911 for $250 from ecost.com
3 - TBC from eBay.com for $100

... or up the budget to a bit over $500 and get the AVT-8710 brand new for ~$200 from any number of retailers (check pricegrabber.com)

All done.
Good player, signal quality control, good capture device.

++++++++++++++

One last thing: you need at least a P4 1.5Ghz system (or the AMD equivalent) to get good results.

You have left out this important nuggest: you computer specs.

+++++++++++++++

If this is perfect source, no editing needed, then a DVD recorder is another option to evaluate. JVC, Pioneer, LiteOn recorders are best three in terms of quality, price and features.

[anitract]

lordsmurf, Thanks a lot for the great posts! I can't believe how many threads you respond to on this site. Anyway, looks like I am going to have to carefully consider both sides of the DV/mpeg arguement. I can see merrit in both.

My computer specs:
+1 gig PC3200 Ram
+AMD 2400+ Mobile processor (overclocked to 2 ghz)
+2 80GB SATA drives
+1 80GB IDE (7200RPM) drive
+Abit NF-7S Rev. 2 Motherboard
+NEC DVD Burner (12 or 16x...I forget)
+Tri-boot WinXP, Vectorlinux, & FreeBSD (I'd use XP for the video projects most likely)

Overall, it runs very well.

[lordsmurf]

Your computer is slightly faster than mine.
Nothing to worry about.

And you know Linux?
I can see tech issues won't be a problem.
You'll probably learn this stuff fairly fast.

[wwjd]

anitract,

lordsmurf is far more experienced than I. My opinion about avi is based on my own experience and not on the science. I still have a lot to learn am I very grateful for people like lordsmurf and others for taking the time to share what they know.

I have an AIW7500 and a Hauppauge WinTV PVR 150. The 150 does hardware encoding directly to mpeg. It does a good job and I use it for some things but when I really want to keep something or want it to be as good as it can be I use my Canopus.

I just find avi to be more forgiving when it comes to cutting and trimming. It also seems to put less strain on my compture when I am working with it in my various software apps. So much of this stuff is subjective. I do not have a large network of fellow video geeks, so for the most part I do this stuff in a vacuum. I create what I like. I do not get to see much of the stuff others create.

Be sure to use this site to find software that is good at cutting and trimming mpegs and at ecoding avi to mpeg. Software can make or brake the whole thing.

[lordsmurf]

wwjd,
AVI is easier to edit and requires less CPU for capture.
Your observations are spot-on.

One more thing to note is AVI captures are huge (15-75GB per hour, depends on codec). But given a couple of 80GB drives, that's not likely to be a concern. As always, suggested to use a drive SOLELY for video files.

[vhelp]

Evening peoples.

I love the option of a hardware MPEG device (internal or external)
but the only issue I *do* have is the editing part. That's always
going to the last hitch of the chain of events.
.
You can edit w/ Wombles (I've used the older version) but the problem
I have is, it's just another step (though clumsy IMO) and still requires
some additional hd space because you still need to export out, your
final MPEG file(s) you know.
.
If you didn't have *any* such editing (though very unlikely) then a
DVD Recorder would probably serve your needs perfectly, else one of
those hardware MPEG cards.

Weather you have to do any editing during the MPEG or AVI stage makes no
difference in the long run. However, the best method *is* the AVI route
because of it's greater flexibilities it offers:

* filtering (I don't these any more)
* cuting/joining etc

The only advantage you have (among a few other tips) w/ AVI route is
that you have options of using other software MPEG encoders (should you
not be satisfied later with your hardware one)
.
Some good examples are, Mainconcept; TMPGenc; CCE; Procoder; (in any order)

Hardware MPEG devices ...

There are:

* Hauppagues's PVR-250/350/USB2
* ADS's DVD Xpress (I have, and works great w/ VHS sources)
* DVD Recorder set-top units (JVC / Panasonic brands)

I like the DVD Recorder idea because it sort of simulates the VCR feel,
but w/ DISKs instead of TAPEs. They are getting better (based on what
I read here and there on this forum) but one day, I'll probably sperge
when the cash and price is more in tune to my And, it too, will
be an alternative to my AVI route. I still don't think there will ever
be a better way than w/ AVI to MPEG.
.
But, in your case (as with many here) and lots of VHS (and other types
of *mediums* to transfer to DVD (which is the current trend of today)
there is nothing better (when it's LOTS of them) then an hardware MPEG
or DVD Recorder device/unit in between, and no fuss/edits etc would
every need to come in to play.

On the issue of Quality ...

Qualtiy is always a concirn, but when you come in here, looking the best
shot.. and for a project of magnitue (as in yours) there simply is NOT
enought time for you (and others looking for a quick way to transfer video
to another medium ie, DVD) over night!!
.
Quality should not be taken lightly. It should be embrased w/ desire and
and end goal (honestly and earnistly) So, this endeaver is not worth the
waist of time to detail everything/process. Its much better recommended
to use a Hardware MPEG route in the long run. You can always go back and
apply what *you have* learned over time, here.., later on. But for now,
the hardware mpeg is your best route to take. Research that alternative
for now at least.
.
With hardware MPEG (any device) your next research should be:

* how to cut/joing your MPEGs, and
* Author to DVD

That's about it, so far.

From the video workstation of,
-vhelp

[racerxnet]

Still waiting for the screenshots of DV vs ATI conversion to analog!!!! To much hot air and little proof in this department. If you want to edit in MPEG format, it is best to capture in I frames only. Otherwise AVI is the best. The final output to DVD is 4:2:0. The codec used in DV is what will set apart the good hardware from th rest of the pack. 4:1:1 color space is not as bad as some might suggest. This is where I like to see proof in the pudding!!

There are many choices and comprimises to be made. Good Luck.


MAK

http://www.adamwilt.com/DV.html#EmailListsLink
http://www.adamwilt.com/DVvsMJPEG.html

[vhelp]

I don't get it either, when people say that DV is not a good approach
for video projects.. other than DV itself (home footage from cam)

I've ben using this route almost two years straight (ADVC-100 and TRV22)
devices. Both these have their PROS/CONS.
.
* I learned that the with the ADVC-100 it *does not* filter or taint the source
.. (whish *is* what you really want from this device)
.
* And, I also learned a few things about video and resolution.. that
.. being that as for my TRV22, it does filter the video to some degree,
.. but not to the point of damanaging or even tainting it. I would say
.. that it comes close to "boarder-line" when filtering inside the unit.

But, I won't go into too much details of the specifics here other than
what I just mentioned above w/ DV

-- -- -- --
.. regarding vhs clip .. I edited this off-topic comment.
-- -- -- --
EDITED: ... by vhelp - - (sample clip.. perhaps in another thread)

Later guys,

From the video workstation of,
-vhelp

[anitract]

What a great site. Seriously - thanks a lot for all of the info guys (and gals?). I've been thinking about this since I posted; and honestly, I want to have both an mpeg hardware and dv card. I can't do that right now though, but I foresee this as becoming a fun hobby!

vhelp brought a very valid point to light; and the more I think about it, the more I think its the correct one: I have a ton of tapes filled with hours of video in who knows what condition. If I do the DV route it will take a lot longer to get it all to DVD...if I do the mpeg route, with no edits I could get everything switched over quicker.

After I get good copies of my tapes, I could then purchase the DV card I want sometime later and get more in-depth into the editing / authoring aspects of this. This seems like a clear path to take.

So that leads me here: on avg. how long does it take you (anyone reading this) to make a fairly edited DVD from a 2-hour DV transfer? Please take into account capturing, editing, making menus, and encoding times....everything.

Then on the opposite end, how long does it take to make a DVD from an mpeg hardware capture with little-to-no edits?

If the difference in is significantly in favor of the mpeg route, then I think I am sold (for now).

[wwjd]

For (1) hour of TV video captured straight to mpeg it takes; 1hr to cap + 10mins to cut commercials + 12mins to author + 20mins to burn. A total of approximately 1hr and 45 mins. I author using TDA and burn using TDA or Decrypter.

For the same video in avi add approximately 25minutes to that time, 2hrs and 10mins. I use CCE Basic to edit out the commercials and encode the avi to compliant mpegs. I use TDA to create menus and author. I use either TDA or Decrypter to burn the DVD.

My system is a P4 2.53, 512Mb, 533Mhz front side bus. Your CPU speed will have a large bearing on how fast avi can be encoded to mpeg.

Cinema Craft Encoder (CCE) Basic is a very good mpeg encoding software that is also quite fast.

TDA does not re-encode compliant mpegs therefore it is also quite fast when it comes to authoring.

One word of caution and that is once you have burned the DVD you will need to deal with the .vob files. This is the file structure for DVDs and not all software apps will accept them. TDA does and it is fairly easy to change them back to mpegs but it could get a bit complicated.