Capturing Hardware Advise Needed

[ZAPPER]

DAMB THE BUDGET MAN!!! This is video we are talking about here! You can't put a price on it! Who cares if you have $5000. wrapped up in movies that you could have bought new on DVDs for $1000.. Or that you put in eight hours of PC time for every 2 1/2 hours of movie that you will be sick of by the time that you get it done. Its about the thrill of the hunt, the conquest, man over the elements and the mettel that you are made of. "Budget" you say. "Blah!" I say. You will spend fives times that trying to do it on the cheap. ARRGH! OK my medicine is kicking in. I will be OK, Whew.

The morale of my little fit is to buy the best that you can. I would say that $800 or more with some hard searching will be closer to getting some of the best consumer stuff out there. If you are like me in any way, you will kick yourself for not buying the the best that you can afford or that you know about.

ATI AIW is kind of what I know about, but Matrox(I consider pro) had a killer card and Adobe premeir for the cost of the software alone(makes me drool just thinking about it)
A TBC box aint a bad thing to have, but because of its single function it hurts to spend money on it(but in reality it is probally a neccessary evil)
A SVHS is the way to go also, but again if you have a VCR that puts out pretty good it would be a luxury that I could wait on or at least shop hard for.
Don't forget the cost of soft ware. While there are a lot of free apps, you will wind spending on something.

It looks to me like you are doing your home work before blowing you wad. Do some more research and scrape up some more cash( or just pace the spending to one thing at a time ) and in a year you will be as happy as a clam

[anitract]

lol Budget is a word that I have come to hate in just about everything I do. Like when I was building my current computer. *shudder* If only I was rich...or got paid more and didn't have loans to pay off...

The worst part is holding back when you don't technically HAVE to, but SHOULD in order to save some $$.

EDIT: Off I go to bed. Until tomorrow... Peace.

[Ron B]

Hello-I capture from various analog sources including VHS and Hi8. I use the Tvone AVT-8710 with my ATI AIW 9800Pro using Huffyuv and VirtualDub. You can use one of the less expensive AIW cards with equally good results. If you prefer an external capture device, the Canopus ADVC 100 does a good job and is pretty reasonably priced these days - http://www.canopus.com/US/products/advc-100/pm_advc-100.asp

[MrDazzle]

to encode direct in mpeg = 1 pass in real time = poor quality

COMPARED to

sava as DV and encode it with software (e.g. cce)

i started with hauppauge a time ago ... i am glad that i have left it

just my 2 cents

[nelson133]

I use the Canopus 100 box and have for going on 2 years. I don't see the problems that LS refers to, tho I have looked, you probably won't either. With the Canopus, no TBC is required as the audio/video signal is locked and no synch issues arise. It also removes macrovision without any additional hardware, if you are going to do commercial tapes you will need some kind of macrovision-defeating. Nyah Levi

[briandugas]

lol Budget is a word that I have come to hate in just about everything I do. Like when I was building my current computer. *shudder* If only I was rich...or got paid more and didn't have loans to pay off...

The worst part is holding back when you don't technically HAVE to, but SHOULD in order to save some $$.

EDIT: Off I go to bed. Until tomorrow... Peace.

I hear ya, but you should read the book "Rich Dad, Poor Dad"
You shouldn't be thinking "I can't afford it."
You should be thinking "How can I afford it?"
That's what I did. I started my own little LLC business, and I've paid off all my toys, over $1000 worth. Now, with the extra I'm making, I bought a new computer. Everything is possible. Don't close your mind out. Your boss isn't the problem. Deliver pizzas for a month, like I did back in college. You can easily make $1000 in a month working part time.
I'm not bashing, I'm just looking to inspire the orignal poster. Don't feel constricted by an $400 budget. I started everything with a credit card that had an $800 limit. I have since paid it off and the rest is profit to buy new "investments" for the company. I would be willing to bet that 25% of the active posters here do side work making money doing conversion work.

[edDV]

No time to enter the debate but after a quick read I don't think anyone has suggested a Digital8 or MiniDV camcoder with "analog pass though" capture capability.

These would do the job with high quality in budget and you get a great DV camcorder to use as well. You may still need a better VCR, if so borrow one.

[anitract]

FOLLOW-UP
Hello everyone. I've spent the past couple of days re-thinking and reading up on some more on suggestions made throughout this thread. I haven't made a decision yet, but I have narrowed it down considerably. I am either going to get the Canopus mentioned or one of the AIW cards...I will also likely buy a TBC.

As far as the All In Wonder cards go, I am in need of some guidance. I would of course, like to spend the least amout of money on one. The 2 that I am considering are the 9600 and the 7500. One goes for about $50 used, the other for about $150 new. lordsmurf suggested the 7500, which has the Theater 200 chip in it.

Here is my question though: is the Theater 200 chip the only thing responsible for the capture quality of the card? Or are there other factors / inner-workings to consider?

I ask this because if you go to ati's website and do a product comparison (LINK) there are a lot of technology features (like "Adaptive De-Interlace", "Smartshader", or "Smoothvision" types) that differ between the 2 cards. I'm guessing that most of this probably deals with the graphics display, but I must know for sure...

[racerxnet]

If you go the ATI route you might just as well get the TBC at the same time. It is picky regarding source material quality and will not record with macro encoded tapes. Hence the need for the TBC. The Canopus 100 will bypass the macrovision encoded tapes, and will not need the TBC on poorer quality sources. This does not imply that you will not need a TBC for your needs, if your tapes are in reasonable condition. You can get what ever you prefer, but be fore-warned, as others have tried with little success regarding ATI and no TBC with macrovision or poor tape condition.

Have Fun!!!

MAK

[lordsmurf]

FOLLOW-UP
Hello everyone. I've spent the past couple of days re-thinking and reading up on some more on suggestions made throughout this thread. I haven't made a decision yet, but I have narrowed it down considerably. I am either going to get the Canopus mentioned or one of the AIW cards...I will also likely buy a TBC.

TBC is always good choice. Always pay attention to the "VIDEO" part of digital video. Not just the "digital". Canopus devices are not replacements for a true TBC. Regardless of what you get, a TBC is a smart move.

As far as the All In Wonder cards go, I am in need of some guidance. I would of course, like to spend the least amout of money on one. The 2 that I am considering are the 9600 and the 7500. One goes for about $50 used, the other for about $150 new. lordsmurf suggested the 7500, which has the Theater 200 chip in it.

Capture chips are the same here, you'd be paying for graphics.

Here is my question though: is the Theater 200 chip the only thing responsible for the capture quality of the card? Or are there other factors / inner-workings to consider?

Use ATI MultiMedia Center aka ATI MMC (free capture software). It was designed for these ATI Theatre cards. Follow the guides on digitalFAQ.com for capturing (simple to do), do not use default settings (very badly setup).

I ask this because if you go to ati's website and do a product comparison (LINK) there are a lot of technology features (like "Adaptive De-Interlace", "Smartshader", or "Smoothvision" types) that differ between the 2 cards. I'm guessing that most of this probably deals with the graphics display, but I must know for sure...

Yes, graphics words. Not the video part.

[anitract]

Awesome.

So that solves my main AIW issue. Now, I have one last thing that I've been curious about...lordsmurf, good sir, when capturing things to DV (with the Canopus for example) from NTSC (like my video tapes), why is the ratio "conversion" that the card does considered "not as good" in your eyes, than an mpeg capture?

I'm just curious because a lot of people with the card say nothing about their transfers looking strange/weird/lesser...everyone couldn't possibly be using PAL source...is it just that to the untrained eye it looks good, when in fact there are obvious issues?

[racerxnet]

anitract
PostPosted: Jan 04, 2005 17:21
Awesome.

So that solves my main AIW issue. Now, I have one last thing that I've been curious about...lordsmurf, good sir, when capturing things to DV (with the Canopus for example) from NTSC (like my video tapes), why is the ratio "conversion" that the card does considered "not as good" in your eyes, than an mpeg capture?

I'm just curious because a lot of people with the card say nothing about their transfers looking strange/weird/lesser...everyone couldn't possibly be using PAL source...is it just that to the untrained eye it looks good, when in fact there are obvious issues?

If you read the links I posted on the first page, it will give you some insight to the and answers to the questions you pose. The main thing to consider when converting to DV and encoding to MPEG2 is the codecs used for each process. How much CPU power do you have? How much HD space do you have? How well is you PC set-up for video processing? Do you want to edit any footage?

You need to look into the future and see what you want down the road. This will answer 99% of your purchasing questions regarding equiptment. Ebay is a great place to start once those questions have been answered. You can go to the Professional level with the hardware/software combination from Canopus, or Matrox as I have done. Each have advantages and disadvantages regarding use.

I am certain you can purchase these pro products under $600.00 ea. if you keep a sharp eye out. Software usually comes with the products sold in the pro catagory. The learning curve is not that steep with all the info on the various web sites.

The DV to MPEG conversion is a moot point to me, and I have yet to see the concrete degredation some people claim regarding the Canopus or Matrox products. 4:1:1 color space vs 4:2:2 to 4:2:0 MPEG2 is a useless arguement with the final product. My internal testing with the Tektronix scope and visual A/B comparisons have served quite well. Best of all, and most important, is that all the customers love the final product using the Matrox and Canopus products.

If anyone cares to show the degredation in DV compared to the ATI capture without any Hardware between the source, I welcome it. Kind of hard to do without the TBC though!!


MAK

[lordsmurf]

is it just that to the untrained eye it looks good, when in fact there are obvious issues?

Yes. That's my assertion, as well as many others I've encountered in the years (and I'm talking about people that have a LOT of my respect here too, not just somebody I casually met one day).

There are issues with 4:1:1 DV format. It is compressed, and the compression scheme was made for SHOOTING new video, not converting analog. It's as simple as that. It does things to colors and contrast that is not normal. This is a direct result of colorspace compression/conversion. None of this is very evident on super-high-quality sources, but a slight source quality degradation, and it starts to become more evident. Also 4:2:2 to 4:1:1 to 4:2:0 is a nasty trip to make. Three conversions to get to DVD from a VHS tape using DV. Yuck. One is bad enough. The first two numbers (x: x: x) are most important. That's why "0" is not so bad.

A lot of what racerxnet says it equally true, however. A lot of this DOES depends on the codecs, both the internal hardware (most important!) and the software. Better codecs will diminish the effects. But you WILL pay for this. The codecs I have seen to date are Canopus, Matrox, and then all those consumer ones. Matrox is the only one that looks good. A good friend has a Matrox DV card, and some others I've met in the past used them. Those cards are out of my price range at $1000+ to get one.

Pretty much everything I just said in regards to colorspace and compression was also mentioned in those articles racerxnet linked to on the first page. I'm just not going to be nice and dance around like the article does. I'll say it frankly so there's no confusion: for converting analog, NTSC 4:1:1 DV is inferior to other widely-available methods.

[anitract]

Thanks racerxnet / lordsmurf. All the DV and mpeg "activists" in this thread have made a lot of valid points. I think I have enough info to make an informed decision now...I'll let you guys know what I decide for sure when I get there.

[SHS]

anitract I have a q for you are your VHS tape recorder in standred mode which are not in longer play mode like LP or EP?.
You may or may not have any problem with one that are recorder in LP, EP hopely you have good luck with your tape and not need a TBC.

I capture min VHS, C-VHS, S-VHS, Digital8 and MiniDV tape with my WinTV-PVR 250 and only had 2 plain in neck tape which I couldn't get a capture from becuase the tape where in EP mode and had bad spot in the tape.
All I have ever use was Womble Multimedia MPEG-VCR for my main editor have been doing this for 4+yrs where all the other editor fail but good news is VideoReDo and PEGASYS TMPGEnc MPEG Editor ever bit as good as MPEG-VCR but I still found MPEG-VCR to be faster to work with no matter how hard I try to work with other they lack a speed switch and few other odd in things which I like.

I think the ADVC-100 is good device if have plain in neck tape or bad spot in the tape.

Something you should know anitract ATI "Adaptive De-Interlace is base software decoding features thing only it not for capture it self and as for "Smartshader" and "Smoothvision" this most for 3D games.

If the ATI AIW capture card there so good then why ATI going though all touble of final building a REAL Hardware MPEG2 Encoder know as THEATER 550 PRO?.
To me the AIW not good option later on if want do other thing with it like play games, etc, etc and have still recoder at same time only with Hardware MPEG2 Encoder and rigth software like SageTV, BeyondTV, GB-PVR, CTpvr, Windows Media Center Edition 2005 which all only support Hardware MPEG-2 Encoder you don't not have worry about CPU usage and drop frames, etc, etc.

There only one capture card I know of that really dose have feature for Ture Hardware DeInterlace with in the capture file it self but I forgot the name of that card and I think it cost pettey penny to buy to.

lordsmurf this part "AVI is easier to edit" this not ture MPEG can be edit with rigth editor and AVI got have lot disk space to work with and counting the time for Encoder the clip over to MPEG and as for "requires less CPU for capture" this 100% wrong and you know it who you trying con here.

MrDazzle encode direct in MPEG = 1 pass in real time dose not = poor quality if that was ture I would not be wastesing my time with Hardware MPEG encoder at all nor would any else, oh and by the all TIVO and Stand along DVR/PVR Recoder all have Hardware MPEG2 Encoder if there base analog and they only do 1 pass in real time.

[anitract]

SHS, I mainly have standard mode VHS tapes....there are probably a couple LP or EP tapes. I'm pretty sure that I will get a TBC if I go the AIW route. Since you've been using a WinTV-PVR 250 for a long time, I'm curious if you have used an ATI AIW card? If yes, why do you like the WinTV-PVR 250 better?

[lifesajrny]

SHS replay......
<---lordsmurf this part "AVI is easier to edit" this not ture MPEG can be edit with rigth editor and AVI got have lot disk space to work with and counting the time for Encoder the clip over to MPEG and as for "requires less CPU for capture" this 100% wrong and you know it who you trying con here.---->

Dude,
First, you might take a course in spelling.
AVI is the format to edit with, then encode to MPEG.
Get a life

[racerxnet]

Editing in MPEG format is possible if you capture in I frames only. Not the best solution for editing, but it works quite well. I would capture to MPEG2 directly only if there is no editing at all.

MAK

[SHS]

Ok you ask why and if I ever had one well yes I had one and there are min reason why I don't care for AIW any more is dran build in microvision which cuases lot problem with non microvision tape and the that fact that I can't do other thing whale it recording like I can with PVR 250 which now been upgrade to WinTV-PVR 500MCE Dual Tuner but this in a new system all by it self see why below.
Why I like my PVR 250 or really should I had two tuner install main becuase I don't have worry about drops frames while I do other thing like play Unreal Tournament, Myst URU, Editing Clips, Building DVD, just ever web browering things like that.
But now I have move to PVR/Recording only box and my Game only box most due Doom 3 and HL2 which I can say about only software I have ever run a cross that pettey kill SageTV and most other PVR app due killer load on Harddrive and CPU which end up stopping the PVR 250 from starting a recording and even a few even time killing a recording becuase PVR app crash becuase of thoses 2 games.

[SHS]

racerxnet I dont capture in I frames only years ago I would have agree with you on this but now I only use VBR mode becuase Womble Multimedia MPEG-VCR which so frame accuracy I don't have worry about it.

[lordsmurf]

MPEG I-frame only is almost the same as MJPEG anyway. Same difference. Files size differences are nominal.

There are some other MPEG settings on some software/hardware for MPEG editing, but it's pro stuff, and most of the pros I have met say to avoid those too.

Womble MPEG-VCR is not editing. That just some splicing, maybe a fade or something really low-key. We're talking TRUE editing in an NLE like Premiere or Vegas. I use Womble too for cutting commercials out of MPEGs, and for cutting off the beginning and end. That's hardly editing.

SHS, you seem to value video games over video capture, or at least insist on doing both. This poster does not care about video games. A good capture card is paramount, not video games. I agree Hauppauge has some nice cards, but MPEG only and they're not for editing.

Another thing that has not been mentioned about ATI AIW cards is the ATI VideoSoap that is in ATI MMC 8 and 9. This gives some mild cleaning filters that are ACTIVE DURING CAPTURE to clean up old video. Removes noise, and works quite well (especially the 17% despeckle).

[Ron B]

As far as the All In Wonder cards go, I am in need of some guidance. I would of course, like to spend the least amout of money on one. The 2 that I am considering are the 9600 and the 7500. One goes for about $50 used, the other for about $150 new. lordsmurf suggested the 7500, which has the Theater 200 chip in it.

I have an AIW 9800 Pro now which replaced an AIW 7500. I believe the 7500 would be adequate for analog captures of home videos, especially VHS tapes. Don't plan on playing Doom3 with the 7500, but it's an serviceable video card for most computers.
The Tvone AVT-8710 TBC is worth the $200.USD it costs. If you go with an ATI AIW for analog captures, especially long captures, sooner or later you'll need a TBC.
I keep trying different capture, editing and rendering programs, but I still like Virtualdub, huffyuv and TMPGEnc for capture and rendering. I'm sure ATI will have a trouble-free MMC ready to go any day now....

[SHS]

Hey well we get bore some time jee you have do some eles beside capture and editing all day wouldn't you agree lordsmurf?.

NLE like Premiere or Vegas is some one that doing Highend Pro work not every day avg run mill stuff beside thoses tools cost arm and leg.

I don't want be mean or anything like that but VideoSoap has gotting any better then this
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=1740&p=3
Becuase it sure dosen't good to me when I read this review by Matthew a few ago and I haven't seem any review showing it was better.
To tell the ture 85% of the reviewer seem to be shy away from Video capture part of card only look at gaming part of the card.

[lordsmurf]

I sure do others things ... none of them involve a computer. Computers are for work. I hate video games, such a waste of time. Though I do have an XBOX should I get an itch to play something (infrequent).