CCE vs Transcoding...wow

[Kingnog]

For a while now, I've been taking the "CCE encoding looks much better than DVDshrink transcoding" saying with a grain of salt. But today, for the first time, I used DVDrebuilder to 'shrink' a movie using a compression ratio of 62%, which looks pretty terrible using dvdshrink. Although it took 3 hours instead of 1 (using 2-pass encoding with CCE), I have to say the quality was amazing. Even on my laptop, where the resolution is so high even the original dvd's look grainy, I couldn't tell the difference between the original and the copy.

So the moral of the story is, if you have time, use CCE to re-encode your videos instead of transcoding! You won't believe it till you try it yourself.

[Gurm]

With a few notable exceptions.

I did "Finding Nemo" with DVD Rebuilder. Holy batshit, batman! It looked like some dog shit that another dog ate and then shat back out.

[Kingnog]

Well that was...odd (at best)

Did you use CCE to encode it? (at least 2 pass)
Something must've gone wrong, heh

[fritzi93]

Yes, it can make quite a difference. How much of a difference depends to a large degree on the source material.

I used to say that at 85% or less, DVDRebuilder all the way. It's not like I have hundreds of movies to back up, an overnight re-encode is just fine.
I was surprised, though, when I backed up ROTK-extended. It was disc one, just under 90% after reauthoring. The scene with the lit beacons gave SLIGHT macroblocking with DVDShrink. (You know the one, it has panning throughout and substantial shadows.) Same result on both settops and their respective 25" TVs.

So I redid it with DVDRebuilder, no macroblocks. This is not meant to slur DVDShrink, it's just that it's hard to predict results unless you consider the source material. Other movies may actually look better with Shrink, or more likely be nearly indistinguishable at slight to moderate compression. JMHO

[greymalkin]

I think it's important to stress again that DVDShrink by default shrinks a movie in about 13 minutes instead of several hours.

HOWEVER, When you go to acutally "Backup!" You have the option to use higher quality settings (deep analysis...etc) that will signifigantly improve your video quality as well as increase encoding time.

[Gurm]

Well that was...odd (at best)

Did you use CCE to encode it? (at least 2 pass)
Something must've gone wrong, heh

Yeah, DVD-RB and CCE, but it was a while back so it could have been my setup, or a bug in RB or CCE, or anything really. But then I came to the realization that my 3-year-old will NEVER use the menus or extras, so movie-only was fine for a backup, and could be done with SHrink quite handily. LOL.

[fritzi93]

Good point, Greymalkin. I always use deep analysis and AEC when compressing with DVDShrink. But that brings the time required much closer to that needed by DVDRebuilder.

After my last comparison, I'll probably use DVDShrink only for very slight compression, when it would not, IMO, be worth using deep analysis and AEC. Otherwise, I'll just use it to rip and reauthor at no compression to prepare the movie for Rebuilder. Really, the only advantages of Shrink over DVDRB are speed and more selectivity.

JMO

[Gurm]

[quote="fritzi93"]Good point, Greymalkin. I always use deep analysis and AEC when compressing with DVDShrink. But that brings the time required much closer to that needed by DVDRebuilder.

Really? How fast is your machine? On my box (and I'm not running the newest or fastest), Deep Analysis plus AEC takes no more than 1 hour, start to finished burn. That's a LOT less than rebuilding.

[Fandim]

Gurm, the time depends on the % shrunk, length of the video being shrunk, (I.E. movies at higher compression take longer than a movie with evenly distributed compression throughout the movie/extra's etc).

Also what form of AEC? Max Smoothness has taken my PC up to 3.5 hours.. (And I'm on an athlon 64, 3200+. So really it just depends...But I dont think that on a high compression movie, with max smoothness checked, you'd do it in close to an hour.

Seth

[fritzi93]

Yes, when I use deep analysis and AEC at max smoothness, Shrink time will be at least 60-70% Rebuilder time. Not enough of a speed advantage to me. For example, disc one of ROTK-extended is what-2 hrs 10-15 mins? DVDRebuilder did it in 3 hours, DVDShrink did it in just over 2 hrs.

I might add that I just did Hero with DVDRB and got some slight bleeding of reds (very vivid, unnatural colors in that movie). Shrink did a little better. Ran it through TMPGEnc, same thing as Rebuilder. Gunna have to read up on settings.

[stiltman]

I might add that I just did Hero with DVDRB and got some slight bleeding of reds (very vivid, unnatural colors in that movie). Shrink did a little better. Ran it through TMPGEnc, same thing as Rebuilder. Gunna have to read up on settings.

Had the same problem. I stuck with shrinks version

Right now I'm doing a test on I, Robot.
Shrink full disc with only english audio @ max smoothness
DVDRB same with CCE at 3 passes and 25% from extras

[Kingnog]

You guys use max xmoothness? I always thought Max sharpness gets you the best quality...ive been doing something wrong

[fritzi93]

Uh, I think there's room to disagree as to when to use max smooth or max sharp or whatever. SOME say max sharp for slight compression and max smooth for heavy compression, seems to do all right. There have been a few threads on this.

[stiltman]

think ddlooping said something about it auto shifting to max smoothness at some point...guess you'd have to search his posts. or wait for him to post here

[Chip718]

I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on the quality of DVD2DVD-R? I was recommened to that program by DVDeeZ. I haven't tried it, but I am considering it because I went to backup 'Collateral' with Shrink, but it was at 75% compression.

[Kingnog]

nice job trying to invade my topic

[fritzi93]

I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on the quality of DVD2DVD-R?

How about you try it and tell us? I couldn't get it to work properly, it seemed to conflict with something already on my system. Seems to pretty much do the same thing as DVDRebuilder, by the description.

[HatchetMan]

Uh, I think there's room to disagree as to when to use max smooth or max sharp or whatever. SOME say max sharp for slight compression and max smooth for heavy compression, seems to do all right. There have been a few threads on this.

% wise, what is considered slight and what is considered heavy compression?

[bugster]

One thing no-one so far seems to have taken into account, or at least mentioned, is how much bitrate 'overhead' a particular movie may have. By this I mean, take a movie scene and see how much bitrate it takes to look 'good' (this being subjective of course). Then see how much bitrate was used on the actual DVD. The difference is what I mean by the overhead. Some movies have more than others. Those with lower 'overhead' (any one think of a better term for this?) will perform less well under DVDShrink than with a proper re-encode with CCE or such like. Maybe ROTK is an example of this. Many DVD's will have a larger 'overhead' and can be shrunk further than others without noticeable artefacts.

Unfortunatley I can't think of anyway this can be worked out in advance, only trial and error will do.

[fritzi93]

One thing no-one so far seems to have taken into account, or at least mentioned, is how much bitrate 'overhead' a particular movie may have. By this I mean, take a movie scene and see how much bitrate it takes to look 'good' (this being subjective of course). Then see how much bitrate was used on the actual DVD. The difference is what I mean by the overhead. Some movies have more than others. Those with lower 'overhead' (any one think of a better term for this?) will perform less well under DVDShrink than with a proper re-encode with CCE or such like. Maybe ROTK is an example of this. Many DVD's will have a larger 'overhead' and can be shrunk further than others without noticeable artefacts.

Unfortunatley I can't think of anyway this can be worked out in advance, only trial and error will do.

Yeah, "overhead" is one of the factors I meant when I said consider your source. But I didn't try to spell it out, thanks for the clarification.

Hatchetman: Presently, I'd say low nineties and up for sharp or no AEC at all, mid-to-low eighties and down for smooth. It's just a personal rule of thumb, others will have their own notions. But look at Bugster's last paragraph, it kinda sums it up.

[stiltman]

Just ran my test.
I,Robot (full disc with all english streams except DTS and all subs)

ran it through shink with max smooth max compression on everything but main title and through DVDRB CCE at 3 passes and 25% from extras

Compared the 2 on my apex at 4X zoom on a 27" TV. Both looked exactly the same to me. I did however see a difference when it came to the extras, DVDRB did a better job even though I stole 25% during recoding.

@ bugster, I agree about the bitrates. I wish I would of saved the log from DVDRB and then compared bitrates between the original and the 2 others.....maybe next time

[archaeo]

I just used Rebuilder for Dances with Wolves, special edition: 10 Gb (movie only) file, placed on ONE disc, reduced to 35% of original size, with two CCE passes. I was amazed, it looks very very good. I think I'll do a comparison and see how DVDShrink handles the same project.

[RickTheRed]

I tried to shrink Harry potter (the first one) with DVD shrink.
Compression ratio was too high IMO but I did not wanted to split it. So I did what's suggested by ddlooping.
Take a demanding scene (fast action, smoke, etc), and do three different backup: 100%, max smooth and max sharpness (compression ratio was 56%).
I played these three files one after the other non-stop on my 19" monitor.
I guess there was a lot of "overhead" because I was not able to see any difference, no matter where I decided to concentrate my attention. I recently decided to watch the whole back up on my TV (27 flat) and I was happy with the result . My conclusion: like bugster said, sometime, there is a lot of overhead and I do not complain about that

[troyvcd1]

If you install dvd2dvdr it will screw up your computer so you can not use dvdrebuilder. It is not a big deal to reconfigure your computer it is just kind of a hassel. I used dvd2dvdr and it gave excellent results. It does take a lot more work to use but it also gives you more control of your movie.

[anzimike]

I used to use dvd2dvdr before I got rb to work. More time consuming to setup, and you have to author after shrinking. Also I'm not sure dvd2dvdr supports subs or multiple soundtracks. Now I use rb and cce basic for anything below 90% compression. I still strip first with shrink, since I prefer movie-only. Rb requires only a couple of clicks and outputs burnable files, great app! Sorry if this constutites a partial hijack, but I totally agree with your results, kingnog!

[stiltman]

One new observation I made while conducting my head to head test. If you remove a audio stream in DVD shrink, it will not be in my players menu. It will be on the DVD menu, but it just selects the next stream. If I use my remote controll to list the streams and select them, it doesn't show the deleted streams.

Now in DVDRB the delete stream show up and can be selected. All that happens is there is no sound coming out. Even my remote control will list all the streams and let me select them as I scroll through.

Just something I've never heard anyone mention before

[SanderMan]

One new observation I made while conducting my head to head test. If you remove a audio stream in DVD shrink, it will not be in my players menu. It will be on the DVD menu, but it just selects the next stream. If I use my remote controll to list the streams and select them, it doesn't show the deleted streams.

Not if you disable logical remapping of enabled streams.

[stiltman]

One new observation I made while conducting my head to head test. If you remove a audio stream in DVD shrink, it will not be in my players menu. It will be on the DVD menu, but it just selects the next stream. If I use my remote controll to list the streams and select them, it doesn't show the deleted streams.

Not if you disable logical remapping of enabled streams.

Which I did not have checked, so it was disabled :P

[SanderMan]

Strange... I just tried it. deselected the french audio stream and I can still see the french stream in the stream list eventhough it's not there anymore.

[stiltman]

Strange... I just tried it. deselected the french audio stream and I can still see the french stream in the stream list eventhough it's not there anymore.

DVD menu or your Players menu?

I can change streams on the fly without going to the DVD's root menu.