The dirty little 4 letter word.... kvcd

[Shadowmistress]

Ok, I know there's a war going on between this site and kwags. I know there have been some casualties along the way. And apparently there continue some minor scirmishes here and there recently. I don't mean to add fuel to the fire and I absolutely DO NOT want this thread locked. If you're not willing to have pot shots taken at you by these guys then DONT POST HERE.

What I've seen lately from these people is that they have a blind devotion to the kvcd template like it's the messiah or something. Personally, I don't think it's worth it's salt, but I'll be open minded about it. Lately I've been doing some experimenting with different matrixes of my own so I'm willing to listen if you guys wanna try to convert me. Good luck. Who knows if I or someone else will come up with something better in the future?

What I want are cold hard facts. Now don't give me 5,000 examples of a finished product which I cannot reproduce. There should be a standard clip which both they and I can download, which we can convert using varying configurations for comparison and get the same results. I already have the kvcd template.

I saw the show-off clip at http://www.kvcd.net/downloads/704x480-showoff.mpg . You guys cheated. The clip is very poorly lit which makes the filesize smaller. That clip was also encoded at 23.976 fps with a GOP structure of I:1, P:7, B:2, not the standard I:1, P:5, B:2. I don't know about you guys, but my player won't play that GOP. With the help of bitrate viewer, try as I might I could not reproduce the same clip using the kvcd template with the same bitrate and quantization levels as the original. I will assume this clip is a fraud until I can reproduce it on my own.

Pissed off at me? Think I don't know what I'm talking about? Prove your point using facts. And no, I will not pay a charge to come to your boards and listen to alot of propaganda. You guys seem to come here to find new converts so here I am. Convert me.

[Cobra]

I am not on either side, but if this thread turns nasty it will be locked. Debate it, fine but if any "potshots" are taken then warnings/bannings will be issued.

Cobra

[lordsmurf]

I was open-minded about it too, at first. I could never get it to produce acceptable results, as compared to compliant methods. The test clips have always been cherry-picked, as you've seen. The matrices are nothing special, and tend to leave your clip dark and muddy. And the "format" is totally out of spec, regardless of their claims. It was designed with progressive video in mind, as soon as you add interlace, filesize is enormous.

You can get the same results merely by tweaking settings or simply using a better VBR encoder. It's as easy as that. BJ_M has provided clips, in the past I've provided clips, and we were not the first.

Think about it: those companies invested millions of dollars to research and develop a quality video specification (MPEG and DVD-Video). If there was a "better way" to do things, they would have done it.

xVCD/SVCD/etc was created for a time when DVD burners did not exists or were "too expensive" for your run-of-the-mill hobbyist (or DVD-renting pirate). That era is dead, like it or not, as is VHS.

In another couple of years, we will all be just as critical towards DVD. Like it or not, that's how technology works.

[Shadowmistress]

OK, first to cobra: HAHAHAHAHA! I almost fell over laughing at how cute your Xmas avatar is!

To lordsmurf: I know, I know, I know and I agree with you. But let's say we live in the stoneage where some folks still use VCD and for arguements sake let's say its progressive.

What get's me is the ATTITUDE these people have and I want to see how they can back up their claims. There was a recent thread which I was ready to retaliate to, which I am sure you're familiar with, only to come back and find it locked. So I figure I'll square off with them myself here. I don't care if they insult me to high heaven, I'm just interested at what facts they'll throw at me.

[offline]

Shadowmistress,

are you sure you want facts or are u just
trolling for a flame war? You can still post
a question as a guest w/o payment at kvcd.net.
Go "square off" with them there, not here.

[Shadowmistress]

No, no, no. I intend to be a perfect lady. I'm ready to crunch quant numbers here. (Also, I can't seem to get in to read the board without paying, let alone post to it.)

There was a thread elsewhere that I was helping someone before this kvcd fan showed up and got the topic locked. https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=248838

I just want to know how they justify their enthusiasm.

[richdvd]

I don't care if they insult me to high heaven, I'm just interested at what facts they'll throw at me.

If you want facts from them, why not go to their site?

[vitualis]

kwag has some good methods but he's a fanatic.

The last big KVCD/KSVCD fight that went on here had kwag bragging that his KVCD templates yielded superior quality to XviD and he posted two clips too apparently "proving" this.

I decided to conduct a poll on his two clips here: https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=227334&highlight=kvcd

As you can see, most people thought the XviD clip looked better (which is interesting because to my eyes, that is a pretty poorly encoded XviD clip as well).

In any case, we have washed our hands here of kwag and his methods. Any discussion of his methods, etc., are best conducted over as his forums on kvcd.net.

Regards.

[lordsmurf]

Search google for matrices information:
I typed in: quantize matrices mpeg
and it brought back many pages. Here are some:

This looks like the best one so far:
http://www.cmlab.csie.ntu.edu.tw/cml/dsp/training/coding/mpeg1/

Plus others:
http://www.digvid.info/digitalvideo/mpeg.php
http://bmrc.berkeley.edu/research/mpeg/faq/mpeg2-v38/faq_v38.html
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/j/u/juc169/ee485_p5.html

Have fun.

[offline]

I'm ready to crunch quant numbers here.

Been there. Done that. In the finale it boils down to a subjective issue; quality.

No, no, no. I intend to be a perfect lady.

Satstorm and I spent a fair amount of time smoothing
things out between the two boards the last time. I will suffer no repeats gladly.

[offline]

I'm Locking this thread. Offline