Filter advice invited - how would you fix this?

[NewHomebrew]

Ok, I'm glowing, just completed my first capture, thanks for all the advice so far. My generated VHS source went from the JVC HRS9800U into the ADVC-100 with ease and is now a big fat avi on my computer. I will make it into a DVD.

I have seen some fantastic results with the restoration you guys do. I think I am dealing with some fairly typical vhs issues:

1) noise, bits of snow
2) video is quite dark (gamma issue?) obscuring detail
3) video is reddish and colors/chroma(?) need correction

Here's a couple jpeg stills, (I can email you a 15 second avi clip if you really want it). What would you do to make this look a bit better? I have been fiddling with some of the filters on the site but you know how it goes when you're new at something... you try do to too much and never get the elegant solution! I have noticed that the very dark blackness is hiding a good bit of noise.

Poorly lit

Very dark

Reddish

[Capmaster]

Awful quality. Is the tape that bad?

I would recapture using tweaked settings to correct the darkness, color shift and noise. And try a higher bitrate.

Are you capping through a TBC? It doesn't look like it, and you haven't filled out your computer profile.

A TBC will clean up a lot of the ragged vertical edges among other things.

[NewHomebrew]

>Awful quality. Is the tape that bad?

It's been trough several copies at least (4th gen?). This is one of the better quality ones I have too, uh oh.

>I would recapture using tweaked settings to correct the darkness, color shift >and noise. And try a higher bitrate.

I guess I'm too new to know how I would do this. The recipe I imagined was capture as uncompressed .avi > edit/restore/filter > .mpeg > dvd. I used Sony Vegas as the capture app although I have other programs too.

>Are you capping through a TBC?

I used the TBC on the JVC deck. It definitely improved things (sometimes it makes them worse). I don't have a separate hardware unit.

[mpack]

1) noise, bits of snow
2) video is quite dark (gamma issue?) obscuring detail
3) video is reddish and colors/chroma(?) need correction

You don't say what you intend to do with this video you captured. For example, if this is a DVD/VCD conversion project you don't necessarily have to rush around trying to correct the darkness or colour balance. Just because it looks too dark or too red on a PC monitor doesn't mean it will look the same way on your TV. Only after you have confirmed you have a problem do you need to think about fixing it... Do an experiment first.

I would also echo the previous reply: basically the rule is garbage in, garbage out. If you want the best possible output quality you should strive for the best possible input quality. You can still use filters, but they work even better when the source is pretty good to start with. That means (in my opinion) capture with a lossless codec such as Huffyuv, at full PAL or NTSC resolution and frame rate, and the use of a TBC (Time Base Corrector) to fix wonky sync signals from worn VHS tapes.

[NewHomebrew]

Hi mpack. Thanks for the response.

>You don't say what you intend to do with this video you captured.

It will be a dvd. I edited the original post.

> Just because it looks too dark or too red on a PC monitor doesn't mean >it will look the same way on your TV.

You are right. Before transfer when I watch the VHS on my TV set I notice all the same problems. They are inherent to the tape because it has been copied several times, probably on not-so-good decks.

>basically the rule is garbage in, garbage out.

Yes, the tape is quite flawed but it is the starting point for the project and I can't do much about that part of the equation.

You guys think that bad capture is contributing to the crappiness of it?

[mpack]

You guys think that bad capture is contributing to the crappiness of it?

Its hard to say: the images you posted were JPEGed (so additional quality may have been lost), and because I'm viewing them on a PC monitor its hard to see the detail to see how that has been affected.

The most interesting image from my pov is the third one where there is a sheet of paper with large writing on it. Now, I've captured VHS footage originally recorded from a UHF broadcast (ie. not a commercially produced VHS), and yet I can still read the text off a newspaper if the camera isn't in motion. So, I think you ought to be able to read whats on that sheet of paper, but I can't.

Was that a still taken when the camera was in motion? If not, ie. if motion blur can't account for the loss of definition then it has to be down to the poor quality Nth generation copy... and I'm afraid that once the information has been lost to that extent there isn't much you can do to get it back. Of course, it could also be a very coarse JPEG.

[NewHomebrew]

The scene with the sheet of paper is fairly still, fixed camera angle.

You can download a 29MB avi sample here that is about ten seconds long.

[ZAPPER]

It seems lately that I am the spoiler but I have to ask some questions first.
Does the movie look ok when it is played from vcr straight to the tv? Keep in mind that this is as about as good as it will ever get(yes you can do some work on it but it will never be like new again)
Can you tweek the VCR to make it look any better on your TV? This should be what your pc will capture when you have it at the best vcr out put.
Is this a one of a kind copy or can you buy a new copy? On my PC things are looking pretty rough. There may still be hope, dark and red are I think the two biggest problems for everyone. Start tweeking and playing with the settings until you can capture to your PC as good as it plays on your TV and then start to apply filters and such

[NewHomebrew]

>Does the movie look ok when it is played from vcr straight to the tv?

No, it has the same flaws on my TV set as on the capture. Too dark, noisy, too red.

>yes you can do some work on it but it will never be like new again)

I just want to make it look as good as it can, within the limitations that I have. If it's only a minor improvement, that's ok.

>Can you tweek the VCR to make it look any better on your TV?

I can change picture control (edit, soft, sharp, auto), Digital R3 (a luminance corrector), choice of Video Stabilizer OR TBC/DNR, and that's all I can control from the playback deck.

>Is this a one of a kind copy or can you buy a new copy?

It's a non-commercial personal type video. Sadly it's the best quality I'll have access to. Assuming the VCR settings are maxed out, any recs for color/noise settings on filters? I'm open to pretty much any program, I guess VirtualDub will be what I try first.

[ZAPPER]

Just curious, when playing the tape and veiwing it on a TV can you adjust the TV to make it accecptable. What I am getting at is how much of the original infromation is still on the tape and if it can be seen. From what I am looking at you may need pro help or pro equipment to get even a fair copy. I have tried a few differnt free programs whitout much luck, I would have thought that Vegas would do better. There may be some plug ins that you can find around here somewhere.

[lordsmurf]

I can tell you right now: that image is going to look terrible on a tv set as is. It needs restoration. The threshold differences between YUV and RGB and the IRE difference are not THAT great. If it looks that bad on a screen cap, it'll still be bad on a tv set.

The good news? That tape you have is easy to fix. You've already nailed all the issues. Gamma, chroma, and noise.

The only problem here is you may not have good enough equipment. I would OWN that tape with the Elite Video BVP-4, JVC 9800, DataVideo TBC-1000 and JVC DRM10SL equipment. It's always best to fix in hardware while the info is still analog. Once you go digital, the odds of a "more perfect" fix is diminished.

However, that's not to say impossible.

I would wholeheartedly suggest using TMPGENC PLUS for this video, if software is the only option you have. All you really need is a 20-1-20, 40-1-40, or 40-2-40 noise reduction to fix the noise. Try for 20-1-20 first, increase as needed. Do not overdo it, remember tv hides some problems.

For the chroma (red bleedy messy noise), use a YUV saturation filter and run it at about -70 to take out some of the image color. This is the only real fix for this in software. The DNR circuits in the JVC DVD recorder would have wiped out that kind of noise, as would the DNR in the VCR (as long as no jitter was created).

For the gamma, a simple YUV gamma filter, pump it up a bit (but not TOO MUCH! ... the image on the PC will be a bit brighter on the tv set, using this encoder).

Feel free to contact me directly if needed. I can go over some more options with you there. PM here or use the CONTACT US button on the top menu of www.digitalFAQ.com .. I just finished up about 13 videos that were in this exact condition, and the final product is extremely nice (pro hardware is to thank).

Restoring video is my specialty.

[NewHomebrew]

> that image is going to look terrible on a tv set as is. It needs >restoration.

I agree! I think we'll get it figured out. I would like to send you some videos to work on, but in the meantime, I did some tweaking myself and came back to share the results.

>The only problem here is you may not have good enough equipment.

Yes, I am missing some of the more pro elements in your signal chain. I did try to get some decent starter gear though

>I would wholeheartedly suggest using TMPGENC PLUS

I followed your suggestions and tried it out and had decent results. I ended up using Vegas and some plugins though because I don't feel quite ready to learn frameserving yet.

The settings for these pics and clip are:
*Dynamic Noise Reduction, threshold = 18
*Sony Color Corrector =
saturation 0.700
gamma 1.300
gain 1.120
and then i used the color wheels to subtract some of the midtone red until the colors looked natural

Better detail


Now you can see the texture of the black backdrop


The metal looks more natural and the noise is improved


More natural colors

[NewHomebrew]

Here is a 20MB mpeg-2 render with those settings.

[vcd4ever]

Thanks for the sample file "Sample2.avi" and god luck with the filter stuff.

vcd4ever.

[lordsmurf]

ended up using Vegas and some plugins though because I don't feel quite ready to learn frameserving yet.

Why frameserver? TMPGENC is an encoder.

[vhelp]

I was only able to get about 18mb before it stopped.
But thats ok. It was enough. Actually, I kind of got interested
in the band just getting started anyways.

The only thing I didn't like in your sample clip was the
way the video "shimmered" due to the filtering. I know that everyone
seems to consider VHS as noisy, but thats sort of missleading in a way (IMO)
VHS is more like "grainy" which is good, and not bad, as many believ,
and based on my assumptions and beliefs of my own

I would suggest that you *leave* the video alone, because it is of
4th generation (according to your first post) incorporating a filtering
step is adding anamilies (IMO) ie, the "shimmering" of dark background.
Its like the background is moving or something.., a common side-effect
w/ filtering.
.
At best, I would have added some brightening. However, I think that
the gamma is the wrong coloring to use. I think a YUV or Brightness
should have benused instead. Gamma (specially used wrong) will add
what I call "chisels" if turned up too bright, and sort of makes the
video like "puzelly" or something. I can't quite put it in words

I don't know what the length of each of these tapes are, but if they
are one hour long, I would suggest using (trying) a very high bitrate
like 9000 (I use it lots) but w/out the filter step(s) you used in your
first sample clip (you posted it here) and instead encode as is. No
color fitering either. Then author to VOB and burn to dvd-rw disk and
see how it looks.
.
You are using the ADVC-100 device. Your source will already have its
color space lighten up already. that's why I suggested NOT to do any
color adjusting. If the source still looks dark, even after ADVC got
to it, then try this.., and make a change to the ADVC dip-switch and
set the IRE to the lighter setting, and do another capture (same scene)
and author/burn to dvd-rw and test the viewing quality again.
.
With a little luck, you might like what you see.

Remember, you source seems to be pure Interlace. So, encode as Interlace
only.

Good luck,
-vhelp

[NewHomebrew]

ended up using Vegas and some plugins though because I don't feel quite ready to learn frameserving yet.

Why frameserver? TMPGENC is an encoder.

As far as working with a short avi clip in TMPGEnc, that's no problem. But for the finished project, to go from my 15GB avi file > filters > mpeg-2 in one step, wouldn't I have to frameserve to TMPGEnc?

Thanks for the reactions guys. If you think the adjustments I made aren't working, please let me know. I can definitely learn from what you think. Even a short "better" or "worse". If you can't download the sample files let me know and I can put them back up.

Thanks!