Poor quality capturing 8mm tapes with ADVC-300

[westbrookmedia]

I purchased a Canopus ADVC-300 to capture anolog tapes (VHS,8mm), edit and burn to DVD. I am having quality issues with the ADVC-300.

I am unable to capture the same quality as the 8mm. The AVI file (viewed using PowerDVD) created using the ADVC-300 has very sharp color quality but has lots of artifacts. Things seem to 'vibrate'. I don't know exactly how to describe it, but it looks 'sparkly' and grainy with lots of colors. It appears almost as if it is TOO MANY pixels. I have tried Sonic MyDVD, Adobe Premiere, Nero and Studio 8 all at DV quality to capture the tape and I get better results using a stand alone Pioneer DVR-210 DVD burner. The resultant DVD's color quality and sharpness is not as good, but at least there aren't as many sparkly artifacts. I would use the stand alone, but I want to edit.

Here is my question:

Could my boat anchor PC be what is affecting my capture quality? If I buy a better PC, will my capture quality improve or is this a result of the Canopus?

I am using a P3 966 Mhz with 512 M RAM.

OK, after you stop ROLLING on the floor LAUGHING... could this be the problem? Or, is it the Canopus?

I have tried so many different variations and different ways I cannot possible list them all. I shut every process on my machine down, turn off preview, anything I can think of to make sure it has maximum processing power. I even tried borrowing a brand new Hi8 camera and get the same to worse results through s-video.

I have an 8mm video camera hooked up via composite to the Canopus ADVC-300, the Canopus goes digital out thruough a firewire to my pc. I have checked and rechecked the settings on the ADVC, but I simply cannot get a good capture from the 8mm on the Canopus.

I know I am pushing this PC to the limits, but even I am amazed at what I have been able to do as far as editing, authoring and burning DVD's with it.

Very frustrated.

[thecoalman]

Have you tried viewing it on a authored DVD? I suggest you do before making any judgements.

[NightWing]

What OS are you running. That computer should work ok since the compressor is in the 300. Wondering if the playback decoder { software } is having problems.

There is a setting in Media player. Cant remember it off hand but most of the windows DV codec are set to 1/2 rez. You may be in that setting.

Here is the check....
1) Stop the video. But dont close the WMP program.
2) Click on the Menu File/Properties
3) Click on Details. If does not show 720 x 480 then continue!
else stop its something else.
4) Click on the Advance tab.
5) Click on the entry DV Video Decode.
6) If set to anything but Full, click on Full and check the Save as Default.
7) Say ok and close all of the dialogs.

Also you may want to try recording somthing with the best quality you can get your hands on so to speak. See if you still get that Noise is the killer for any compressor.

ADDED: You can take the finished DVD from the recorder and use something like TMPEG Author to build and edit out what you dont want.

[gshelley61]

I've stopped capturing to the computer. After a couple of years of frustration, I bought a used DVD recorder off of eBay and discovered that the finished image quality was far superior to anything I was getting from the PC method - plus it was FAST.

Believe me, I put lots of effort and time into PC video capturing, editing, filtering, frameserving, encoding, authoring and burning before I gave up... I have Pinnacle 8 Deluxe, VirtuaDub Mod, VirtualVCR, TMPGEnc Plus, VOBEdit, IFOEdit, and many other multimedia applications. I've been through several different capture cards, too. Even with all the great tips and advice on this site, I really never was completely satisfied with the finished result.

I now have a JVC DR-M10 DVD recorder which I treat basically as a MPEG2 hardware capturing and encoding device. I record with DVD-RW's in standard DVD-Video (VOB files) format, then frame-accurately edit on my PC with Womble MPEG Video Wizard. Then I author the edited MPG file and burn to a finished DVD-R, all without any re-encoding or quality loss of the original captured VOB files from the -RW. I have also started using hardware video processors to clean up, correct and enhance the source when necessary prior to capturing. Simple, fast and easy... plus, I get consistently good to excellent results.

[Blazey]

I've stopped capturing to the computer. After a couple of years of frustration, I bought a used DVD recorder off of eBay and discovered that the finished image quality was far superior to anything I was getting from the PC method - plus it was FAST.

Believe me, I put lots of effort and time into PC video capturing, editing, filtering, frameserving, encoding, authoring and burning before I gave up... I have Pinnacle 8 Deluxe, VirtuaDub Mod, VirtualVCR, TMPGEnc Plus, VOBEdit, IFOEdit, and many other multimedia applications. I've been through several different capture cards, too. Even with all the great tips and advice on this site, I really never was completely satisfied with the finished result.

I now have a JVC DR-M10 DVD recorder which I treat basically as a MPEG2 hardware capturing and encoding device. I record with DVD-RW's in standard DVD-Video (VOB files) format, then frame-accurately edit on my PC with Womble MPEG Video Wizard. Then I author the edited MPG file and burn to a finished DVD-R, all without any re-encoding or quality loss of the original captured VOB files from the -RW. I have also started using hardware video processors to clean up, correct and enhance the source when necessary prior to capturing. Simple, fast and easy... plus, I get consistently good to excellent results.

What hardware processors? I have a TBC-1000 and a Sima SCC, which are OK, but I'm always looking to spend more money

[gshelley61]

[quote="Blazey"]

What hardware processors? I have a TBC-1000 and a Sima SCC, which are OK, but I'm always looking to spend more money

There's been lots of discussion in the DVD Recorder forum about different processors and the effects of using them... I also just started a new thread in Capturing specifically about the subject here:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=239205

[pluche]

from your message I understand that you are comparing the quality of the DVD recorded on your Pioneer, and the recording on your computer in DV format and that is wrong (someone already mentionned that)
from your edited DV movie on your computer, just send it back to your Canopus (inverse direction) and from there to your Pioneer; make the DVD, finalise and compare then; if you have one, use a corrector in between to optimise
to my opinion, that gives better (and faster) results than the software conversion DV to DVD on a computer

[gshelley61]

from your message I understand that you are comparing the quality of the DVD recorded on your Pioneer, and the recording on your computer in DV format and that is wrong (someone already mentionned that)
from your edited DV movie on your computer, just send it back to your Canopus (inverse direction) and from there to your Pioneer; make the DVD, finalise and compare then; if you have one, use a corrector in between to optimise
to my opinion, that gives better (and faster) results than the software conversion DV to DVD on a computer

Good idea.

[westbrookmedia]

Have you tried viewing it on a authored DVD? I suggest you do before making any judgements.

Yes. I have burned many, many coasters in testing the quality to see if it is better/worse using different capture tools and authoring tools. I've tried playing back the AVI files and authored DVD's on both the computer as well as a stand alone DVD player on a Sony Trinitron television.

[westbrookmedia]

What OS are you running. That computer should work ok since the compressor is in the 300. Wondering if the playback decoder { software } is having problems.

There is a setting in Media player. Cant remember it off hand but most of the windows DV codec are set to 1/2 rez. You may be in that setting.

Here is the check....
1) Stop the video. But dont close the WMP program.
2) Click on the Menu File/Properties
3) Click on Details. If does not show 720 x 480 then continue!
else stop its something else.
4) Click on the Advance tab.
5) Click on the entry DV Video Decode.
6) If set to anything but Full, click on Full and check the Save as Default.
7) Say ok and close all of the dialogs.

Also you may want to try recording somthing with the best quality you can get your hands on so to speak. See if you still get that Noise is the killer for any compressor.

I am running MS XP 5.1 SP2, and I am viewing it using PowerDVD, but what do you mean when you say the 'compresser is in the 300'? I am capturing at full DV quality with 'zero' compression in Adobe Premiere (highest quality in SonicMyDVD and Full DV quality in Studio 8 ). I have also burned the DVD at highest quality and viewed it on a television and all the noise is still there. I have enough coasters to wallpaper the room.

If the noise was being generated after I burned the DVD, I could understand the compression introducing some reduction in quality. But with a $500 capture card, I feel like I should be getting at least 'almost' the same quality as playing the tape on the recorder.

Somewhere, I am doing something to introduce all this noise.[/quote]

[gshelley61]

DV conversion is 5:1 digital compression. The Canopus does indeed compress the sampled video.

It does sound like something is not right, though. You said the captured AVI's look fine?

Sorry, I re-read your original post. The AVI files do not look right. Have you tried streaming a captured file back through the Canopus and out to a TV monitor to see how it looks?

[westbrookmedia]

Is there a technical name for what I am seeing in the captured file and the authored DVD? The closest thing I have found to describing it through reading the forum is 'noise' or even 'moire'.

For example, a close up of a baby's face made the face look like it was 40 different shades of tan pixels dancing on the baby's face. In a shot of the baby in the cradle with a gingham sheet made the gigham lines look like they were vibrating. In everything the pixels appear to be vibrating. Is there a technical term for this or is it just 'noise'?

It just looks terrible.

[gshelley61]

Is there a technical name for what I am seeing in the captured file and the authored DVD? The closest thing I have found to describing it through reading the forum is 'noise' or even 'moire'.

For example, a close up of a baby's face made the face look like it was 40 different shades of tan pixels dancing on the baby's face. In a shot of the baby in the cradle with a gingham sheet made the gigham lines look like they were vibrating. In everything the pixels appear to be vibrating. Is there a technical term for this or is it just 'noise'?

It just looks terrible.

Oh, maybe what you are seeing is dot crawl... is it worst around the edges of bright red lights or objects?

[westbrookmedia]

DV conversion is 5:1 digital compression. The Canopus does indeed compress the sampled video.

It does sound like something is not right, though. You said the captured AVI's look fine?

Actually, no the AVI's look terrible. I can actually watch the degredation 'on screen', if you will, when I click on the start capture button. For example, I have the recorder going throught the Canopus to let's say Sonic MyDVD at full quality capture from the firewire. I start the playback and it looks awesome in the little preview screen. I click on that 'start capture' button and my preview immediately looks grainy and pixelated. Just what my resultant AVI looks like.

[gshelley61]

How about this... are you using the "sharpness" boost? Those must be used very sparingly or you will wind up with lots of grain and noise similar to what you are describing.

[westbrookmedia]

The moving pixals are everywhere, especially where there are some slight changes in color or contrast. Just the different shadows on a white baby's blanket are annoyingly 'moving'. It almost appears as if the quality is too high and the conversion cannot decide which color to use, so each frame has a slightly different color. Perhaps when the frames are put together is what makes it appear to be moving?

Speaking of movement, forget it, it's awful. I tried putting the noise reduction on the highest setting with no difference at all, but after reading some entries on the forum, I see that perhaps I had it on 3D Y/C separation instead of 2D, so I'll try that too.

I am not using a sharpness boost. In fact, I have the Canopus set to all the default settings and have it set to use the PC mode. I have not played much with the Canopus settings, perhaps it's time I did. It seems as if I should try lowering the sharpness a bit. The Canopus manual is not exactly informative.

Thanks, I will try playing with some of the settings to actually REDUCE some of the sharpness and perhaps contrast as well.

[gshelley61]

It sounds like your PC or the capturing software is having a problem accepting the DV stream or something. Can you run the Canopus analog video (monitor) output to your DVD recorder? Then record a test disc that way, direct to MPEG2 - bypassing the DV conversion altogether. See how that looks...

[tphaggerty]

I have a Canopus ADVC1394 with which I am doing the same conversion.

I would check a couple of things first.

1. How do the original tapes look when played on the TV. Many times I have copied tapes to DV AVI, converted, authored and thought the conversion was really bad UNTIL I rechecked the original source. 8mm analog tape really doesn't have that great quality - especially when you stand close to the TV. When doing an A/B to your converted DVD, you have to back up to the same distance you are used to viewing the 8mm tape from (the quality won't improve on conversion).

2. On the Canopus forum, there are many threads about the MS Media player being set to the wrong default resolution. Makes everything look horrible. Check that out. Some computer DVD players don't do a great job with AVI files either. That said, most AVI files don't look great on the computer anyway. They are interlaced, the PC is progressive. You see every artifact on the computer.

3. What are you using to convert to MPEG-2 for the DVD? There are lots of arguments about this. I settled on Canopus ProCoder after trying a lot of others (I can convert 2 hour tapes to a single DVD with no apparent loss in quality). In any encoder, you may need to change the SOURCE field for interlacing. If it is current TFF (top field first) change to BFF or the other way around. TARGET shouldn't matter.

4. Regarding someone else's tip about converting directly to MPEG-2, forget about it. They don't understand how the ADVC works. The ADVC provides hardware conversion from analog to DV AVI, then streams the result to the computer. All your "capture" software is doing is copying the AVI to your hard disk. Anything you do in the capture software besides letting it save 720x480 interlaced AVI is going to DEGRADE the quality of the capture.

5. There are lots of discussions on this forum, the Canopus forum and Doom9 forums about using a different AVI codec for conversion. I personally use the Canopus "read only" codec by changing the fourCC code of my captures to "CDVC" (after having installed the Canopus codec). There is lots of discussion about the DirectShow codecs (used by MS) as not working that well. I think the improvements are minimal, certainly not a huge difference.

Good luck and keep trying. I have converted somewhere around 100 8mm tapes with very good success. The main thing to remember is that you WILL NOT IMPROVE the quality of your 8mm tapes in this process, but you can get the same level of quality with some work.

[ranrobertcanada]

I had few 8mm tapes which I converterd to DVD. I borrow sony Digitial 8 camcoder (with 8mm/Hi8 playback compatibiltiy) DCRTRV460. I used a cheap capture card in my celeron 1Ghz with 256 ram machine and the picture quality turn out to be amazing. I think if u can rent or borrow a Digital 8 comcoder from someone, U won't be dissapointed. My old 8mm camcoder didn't even play the quality of the video as the sonyDCRTRV460. I am very pleased with this and I think you should try instead of buying another computer.

[westbrookmedia]

I have a Canopus ADVC1394 with which I am doing the same conversion.

I would check a couple of things first.

1. How do the original tapes look when played on the TV. Many times I have copied tapes to DV AVI, converted, authored and thought the conversion was really bad UNTIL I rechecked the original source. 8mm analog tape really doesn't have that great quality - especially when you stand close to the TV. When doing an A/B to your converted DVD, you have to back up to the same distance you are used to viewing the 8mm tape from (the quality won't improve on conversion).

Hello there - I've played the original tapes on two different TV's and the quality is pretty good. I've compared my authored DVD to the captured AVI file and if there are any differences, I can't see them. But when I compare the tape play back to the DVD on the TV, the tape is much better than the DVD. The tape doesn't have all that noise.

2. On the Canopus forum, there are many threads about the MS Media player being set to the wrong default resolution. Makes everything look horrible. Check that out. Some computer DVD players don't do a great job with AVI files either. That said, most AVI files don't look great on the computer anyway. They are interlaced, the PC is progressive. You see every artifact on the computer.

I am using PowerDVD for playback on the PC. From what I can tell from capturing VHS and DV, it's pretty much WYSIWYG.

3. What are you using to convert to MPEG-2 for the DVD? There are lots of arguments about this. I settled on Canopus ProCoder after trying a lot of others (I can convert 2 hour tapes to a single DVD with no apparent loss in quality). In any encoder, you may need to change the SOURCE field for interlacing. If it is current TFF (top field first) change to BFF or the other way around. TARGET shouldn't matter.

I've used Sudio 8, Sonic MYDVD and Nero to author, but I've backed off getting to this step until I can figure out where I'm screwing up the capture. All my DVD's for the 8mm tapes look exactly like the captured AVI files. I do not understand source field for interlacing, TFF or BFF. Something new to figure out.

4. Regarding someone else's tip about converting directly to MPEG-2, forget about it. They don't understand how the ADVC works. The ADVC provides hardware conversion from analog to DV AVI, then streams the result to the computer. All your "capture" software is doing is copying the AVI to your hard disk. Anything you do in the capture software besides letting it save 720x480 interlaced AVI is going to DEGRADE the quality of the capture.

5. There are lots of discussions on this forum, the Canopus forum and Doom9 forums about using a different AVI codec for conversion. I personally use the Canopus "read only" codec by changing the fourCC code of my captures to "CDVC" (after having installed the Canopus codec). There is lots of discussion about the DirectShow codecs (used by MS) as not working that well. I think the improvements are minimal, certainly not a huge difference.

I think I'll hold off burning anymore coasters until I get the capture figured out.

Good luck and keep trying. I have converted somewhere around 100 8mm tapes with very good success. The main thing to remember is that you WILL NOT IMPROVE the quality of your 8mm tapes in this process, but you can get the same level of quality with some work.

Thank you. I really just want to get as close to the original quality as possible. Apparently, I have a lot more homework and research to do, a few more things to try and some new things to learn about. Just when I think I have jumped a hurdle and THINK I know what I am doing, I realise once again that I don't.

Thanks to everyone for all the input, I really appreciate it. I'm a part-timer with very little time... so it will take me a while, but I'll be back. [/code][/quote]