DVD recorders, closed captioning, and editing and more!

[Mahime]

Feeling very stupid at the moment. I have read about DVD recorders but haven't found answer to these questions. I usually type up my questions in MS word and search as I go along so I don't ask stupid questions but the brain is stuck in senior moment (and I am not a senior yet!) So here goes...

I have been working on transferring my VHS to DVD. I have a system set up using the Canopus ADVC-100 I bought 2 years ago but really haven't done much transferring. I am stuck on keeping the Closed Captioning. I understand the separate DVD recorders do that. With the Canopus and stuff, you lose them. So here is my question...I have an opportunity to get the Pioneer DVR 220 from Walmart. Apparently it has great reviews on this website. I want to write my VHS's to DVD's I can share. I also want to edit commercials out. And I want to keep Closed Captioning, add chapters and menus...Lots of stuff.

I read this thread but still feel confused.
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=236851

As for editing, is the DVD recorder like a VCR? Can you pause while recording? I will do this manually if I have to. (Pause it) On the Pioneer DVR thread someone said they were going to edit out commercials on their computer. Heck, if I am going to do that, why bother to buy a DVD recorder. If I am editing out commercials on my computer, I will probably lose the Closed Captioning. I am assuming you have to do the rest of the stuff (encoding, authoring, and burning) on the computer.

So the questions are...editing and Closed Captioning. I also want to add menus and chapters. A lot of my VHS tapes are how-to's recorded off TV. Each half hour program has lots of different information in it so I would like to just go to where I want on the DVD. And I want to use the DVD in my Toshiba DVD stand alone.

So is it worth it just for the Closed Captioning? Will I lose that when I edit it on the computer? Can I do the stuff I want to on the DVD recorder? Thanks for your help.

Whoops, one more question. Do I have to figure out everything I want on each individual DVD before I start recording? If I want one section from one VHS tape and another section from a different VHS tape, can I do that on a DVD recorder? I guess this is part of editing question.

[Mahime]

I am posting this because I find so many questions with no replys. This is what I have found so far...

http://www.dvdguideuk.dsl.pipex.com/dvdguide/editing1/editing1.htm

"DVDGuideUK - Editing recorded DVD material using your PC"

It uses DVD Decrypter & Womble & Ulead Movie Factory. At least it is a start.

It doesn't address the closed captioning issue.

There is so little on the CC subject. I looked at McPoodles site
http://www.geocities.com/mcpoodle43/SCC_TOOLS/DOCS/SCC_TOOLS.HTML#capture_analog

Wow! Overwhelm. A 30 day trial on Ulead's VS8 will not be enough. I will never slog thru all this information and get it working in a month. Oh well.

Today I receive the Pioneer DVD recorder (it is a gift). Maybe I will post back what I find since I am not getting any response. (Or maybe I am just impatient) I hope this helps someone else.

[Frobozz]

I considered replying but I've never paid any attention to the closed captioning with my Pioneer DVR and couldn't find any mention of it in the manual or on the Pioneer support site. This means I'd have to actually experiment with it and I have other things to do right now.

Your questions about recording with the DVR and editing on a PC are best addressed with some trial and error on your part. Be sure to use DVD-RW media for your experiments so you can keep erasing the discs. One thing you'll have to decide is if you want to format your DVD-RW in VR mode or Video mode. VR mode lets you do lots of editing but the disc can only be played on your DVR. Video mode can be finalized to play on your PC or Toshiba.

Of course you can pause recordings. In fact, each time you pause you automatically set a chapter marker. You can add other chapters later and do some limited editing/cutting, but you can't have a submenu showing the different chapters.

As you attempt to get the DVR to do what you want it to do, be sure to post other "how do I do this" questions. It's easier to give you an answer when you've had some experience with what works and doesn't work.

[handyguy]

All machines should transmit the captioning signal. However, some do not, perhaps they forgot? No Apex dvd player can.

Also, running it through some versions of dvdshrink can take captions off.

ATI all in wonder cards keep captions & capture them too. Panasonic dvd recorders keep the captioning signal.

[leebo]

The captions are imbeded in the video signal, on two lines that do not make up a part of the picture (look up
"scan lines" if you don't know what I mean). You would need a TBC to remove them. I'm not even sure a TBC could do it.

[handyguy]

They are entered on line 22... You sure no video is sent on that line?

[leebo]

It's the underscan area. To see it you need a monitor with underscan function. It looks weird, like little dots racing back and forth along one scan line.

[spiderman2k1]

Best thing to do is record on a DVD recorder and bring the the file's to the PC for editting if you need all the nice extra stuff. I use a Panasonic E80 I burn on DVD-RAM and use a LG DVD burner to read the MPEG 2. If you get a JVC record in DVD-RW and use TMPG-DVD Author to get the MPEG 2 file on the hard drive. If you want Closed caption you need a name brand DVD recorder.

[Mahime]

I now have the Pioneer DVD 220 recorder. It does a lot more than I thought. From reading posts about DVD recorders, I got the impression you didn't have much control over what went into the finished DVD-R. I think using this thing will answer my questions and make more questions.

I feel for those people who had problems setting the time on their VCR's. I found VCR's a piece of cake but DVD recorders are a lot more complicated. So it took me quite awhile to read the instruction manual and figure out how to set it up. The manual didn't have diagrams for my set up. My configuration has a DVR cable box, the DVD recorder, and my VCR. The way the directions read it would have taken an engineer to figure out which and what cables go where. RCA cables and coaxial cables and S-Video cables. One for input and something different for output. So I just laid it all out on my living room floor and connected piece by piece. One place that stumped me was not being able to use AV cables throught the DVD recorder and the VCR to the TV. I don't know why it causes problems. Something about copy protection but if you are able to copy a VHS tape what difference does it make. And it won't copy a tape with Macrovision anyway.

One questions has come up. Can someone explain the difference between VR mode and Video Mode. It sounds like perhaps you can actually erase stuff in VR Mode but not in Video Mode? Is one for DVD-RW and one what you do with DVD-R?

So tomorrow I play. Transferring and pausing out the commercials and adding chapters and menus and everything I can think of. And never bringing it to the computer so I won't worry about losing the Closed Captioning. That part works beautifully with this unit. I will be completely satisfied if the disks will play in my Toshiba stand alone. And I suspect they will. 8)

[leebo]

One questions has come up. Can someone explain the difference between VR mode and Video Mode. It sounds like perhaps you can actually erase stuff in VR Mode but not in Video Mode? Is one for DVD-RW and one what you do with DVD-R?

Most important, VR mode cannot be played back on most players, other than Pioneer (with few exceptions).

VR mode is editable (you can remove whatever sections you like) but can only be recorded on -RW.

Video mode is compatable with all players and can be recorded on both -R and -RW, but is not editable in the recorder.

[Frobozz]

Can someone explain the difference between VR mode and Video Mode. It sounds like perhaps you can actually erase stuff in VR Mode but not in Video Mode? Is one for DVD-RW and one what you do with DVD-R?

If you want to eventually play the DVD on the Toshiba you must use Video mode. It still allows trimming out unwanted content and adding chapter marks.

VR mode is excellent when you are wanting to record programs to watch once or twice and delete. When you delete a title from a VR mode DVD-RW it makes that space available for new recording. With a Video mode DVD-RW you need to reinitialize the entire disc in order to re-use the space from deleted titles.

[leebo]

[If you want to eventually play the DVD on the Toshiba you must use Video mode. It still allows trimming out unwanted content and adding chapter marks.

Not on my Pioneer. You can only delete the last recording. If you want to cut out a commercial, you can't. You also can't add chapter marks manually.

VR mode is excellent when you are wanting to record programs to watch once or twice and delete.

Why can't you do this with video mode? On my Pioneer you can.

When you delete a title from a VR mode DVD-RW it makes that space available for new recording. With a Video mode DVD-RW you need to reinitialize the entire disc in order to re-use the space from deleted titles.

Not if it's the last recording on the disc.
What brand of recorder do you have?

[handyguy]

It would be real cool if we could add closed captions ourselves on a PC for free.....

I think it can be done on a Mac free, but a PC requires the CC enoding card.

[Frobozz]

leebo,

Thanks for correcting my misunderstandings of what is possible with Video mode DVDs. You are correct that chapter marking and editing is not available and that deleting the last title makes that space available for additional recording. You also can delete other than the last titles but, unlike VR mode, that won't make the space available for new recording. VR mode is best when you want to do chapter marking and editing or want to reuse space for deleted titles other than the last title.

I apologize for my erroneous statements and appreciate your quick corrections.

[leebo]

So Fro, what recorder do you have? I'm interested in any changes that might have been made since I bought mine two years ago.

[Mahime]

Thanks for your great help and explanations! I am really learning a new language here. I believe that is what makes this so overwhelming. The manual for the DVR is 102 pages! And I am slogging thru it bit by bit.

I would love to have chapter marks in the final copy of DVD I make in Video mode. I am thinking I am going to have to use title marks (or whatever it's called) As I said, I want to take lots of How-to's and put them on DVD's. Now I think I understand that if I use title (by stopping the recording then starting it again or does pause do the same thing?) during playback the section will stop when it is at the end of a title. So I will have to keep hitting play for a half hour show. Am I on the right track? Any suggestions.

Thanks for clearing my understanding of VR and Video Mode. I wanted it to be different. Oh well.

Handyman wrote:

It would be real cool if we could add closed captions ourselves on a PC for free.....

I think it can be done on a Mac free, but a PC requires the CC enoding card.

Can I take the DVD-RW to the computer, copy it onto my HDD, use a program to put in chapter marks and then rewrite it to a DVD-R? Will I keep my CC? Does any one know this or have they tried it?

I am thinking that since line 21 is already encoded in the recording, it will transfer over on the copy. Fingers crossed.

BTW I love this machine! I don't have to figure out 10 different software programs. (Brain was getting fried) But does anyone know where you can buy the 320DVR. It has the firewire port in the front and since I have the Canopus ADVC-100.... I wonder how much more it costs? This one (220DVR) was purchased at Walmart and I understand it is made for Walmart. Or something like that. I didn't see the 320DVR when I was at my local Wally World this morning.

I know the Canopus ADVC-100 has AV outputs on the front but I never could figure out how to get it to play back thru them. I do have a few (about 10) Movie VHS tapes that would be nice to put on DVD. Not only did they have a quick life on VHS (the movies), I think the movies were so bad they will NEVER see a DVD. But hey, I love some pretty bad movies. Any one here of "The Wrong Man" with John Lithgow & Rosanne Arquette? Or "Carnie" with Jodie Foster & Gary Busey? God they are bad but I love em!

[Frobozz]

So Fro, what recorder do you have? I'm interested in any changes that might have been made since I bought mine two years ago.

Mine is the Pioneer DVR-510H.

Mahime, I also was wrong when I said pressing pause during recording adds a chapter marker. It only does this with VR mode discs.

Unless you have a DV camcorder I wouldn't worry about the lack of the DV port. Your Canopus device serves the purpose of sending video to and from a computer's video editing application better than the Pioneer's DV port.

[Frobozz]

I've experimented with the closed caption question. However, I have a Mac so the software I'm using doesn't apply to all you PC users.

I burned and finalized a DVD-RW disc that had closed caption content. After inserting the disc in my Mac I used Cinematize to create a muxed MPEG2 file of the video title. I then placed the MPEG2 file into CaptyDVD, an authoring application that lets me place chapter markers in MPEG files. After placing the chapter markers I had CaptyDVD create a Video_TS folder that I burned using Toast to a DVD+RW disc (I was curious how the Pioneer DVR handles finalized DVD+RW media).

The result: The re-edited DVD plays the closed captions on the Pioneer DVR.

[Mahime]

Thanks FroBozz. Looks like I will be doing some experimenting on my PC. Thanks for the info.

I am right now in the process of burning my first DVD on this thing. One movie down and counting.

In the directions/manual it mentions you can set chapters at 0,10 & 15 minute intervals. It doesn't mention whether that works in Video mode. I will be finding out in a few hours.

[Bizuser]

Mahime - thanks for posting your question, and thanks to everyone else for their responses.

I just posted over in the 'Capture' forum a similar question. I'm getting great results using my Canopus ADVC 100 and TMPGEnc (TMPG) to convert both live TV and old VHS (and beta!) tapes to DVD. BUT ... I really need the CCs for my partner, who is hard of hearing. I'd be happy with CC's as is, or CCs converted to subtitles.

It seems, from your posts, that you are able to capture CCs by going from your VHS player to the DVD recorder using RCA jacks and S-Video cable. I'm not quite clear, though, on your success with editing - can you 'capture' a whole show, then go back and edit out commercials afterwards? Can you then set chapter marks, etc (and end up with a regular, 'play anywhere' DVD)? I can do all this now with my PC-based setup, but no CCs of course!

To all you DVD recorder people ... how is the quality of the captured video, compared to running the show through TMPG on a PC? TMPG is infuriatingly slow (can be 4, 8, 12 hours per hour of source material, depending on filters (I use complex avisynth filters to handle color correction, etc)) but the end result is pretty amazing.

And did I get this right ... if I capture to a standalone DVD recorder, I can then use my PC to take the files from the DVD (the video-ts folder, etc), demux, and then edit the VOBs to remove commercials, etc, and STILL have CCs ...? And, not have to re-encode (this would just require a good 'cuts only' type MPG editor, one that cuts at I-frames, and doesn't break the structure like so many editors seem to do!).

[Bizuser]

I just wanted to update this thread ...

I'm now able to capture live TV broadcasts WITH CC, straight to MPEG, and author them to DVD, and play the DVD on my set-top DVD Player/TV combo. I'm using the WinTV pvr250 tuner/MPEG2 encoder card from Hauppauge.

I've had this card for years, (cost $100?) and gave up on it, but this time, I downloaded all the latest drivers and followed steps given at www.shspvr.com and http://www.cask-of-amontillado.com/pvr_reg.html
. You have to edit the registry to get CC's captured, but that's about it.

You also have to be careful editing the mpeg data files if you want to cut commercials, etc. If you use "Womble MPEG2VCR" or VideoReDo, it should work. ANY OTHER program is likely to cause the audio to be messed up. I think Womble is expensive (I'm using free trial right now) but VideoReDo is not bad price.

So with a $100 card, and $50 software, I'm able to capture, edit and burn to DVD with Closed Captions ... pretty cool!

The ability to go into the video file and make accurate edits without audio problems is the best part of all this, I believe. Using a set-top (standalone) DVD Recorder seems to be very limited in this regard.

[garman]

Yes you can keep CC. I use the daytek dvd recorder to capture my tv/vcr programs. I edit them to TDA with chapters, menus, etc. Here's the catch. You must have a dvd player that will output the CC, ie electrohome (can't remember the model) bought from wal-mart for $49 CDN. Turn that option on and set the tv to received the CC signal and bingo. -garman

[siratfus]

Maybe this thread is apropos to ask my question, I just read up on the Toshiba RS-TX60, their latest recorder with a 160 gb HD. One review says that the con of this machine is that you cannot edit out commercials before burning to dvd. How crappy is that? Before reading this review, I thought anything recorded on a dvd recorder harddrive can be edited. I read reviews about the Pioneer 420 and 520h and how it's a breeze to edit out contents. How can the Toshiba compete if it doesn't allow you to editing? Are there other dvd recorders out there like the Toshiba that does not allowing editing with the Harddrive contents. Please warn me now!!

[Bizuser]

From the little I've read on standalone DVD burners, it seems that some of them at least don't actually 'edit' out stuff, they let you skip over it somewhat permanently. So it appears to be gone, but ... it's occupying space.

I've spent years, on and off, looking into video and specifically mpeg editing, and it's clear that very few programs can accurately edit MPEG. MPEG is supposed to be a 'final product', not an intermediate product - this is due to a) how the audio is stored in relation to the video, and b) how the video is compressed and grouped into 'GOPs' (and probably other reasons!). If you want editable video, it needs to be saved in some different format (typically, 'AVI' - although that's not a format as such), which can be edited safely, then 'generate' the MPEG output from that AVI. The problem is, an editable AVI format is almost always much, much larger. It's the very fact that MPEG is so effectively compressed that makes it hard to edit.

Having said that, a few programs CAN do it. But given that most programs can't (can't do it RIGHT, that is!), it's not too surprising that the DVD players can't. I need to look into standalones more, but now that I've got a good methodology going on my PC that includes CC, I probably won't look too hard!