TBC for lasserdisc caps

[Blazey]

Is this just a waste of signal path? It is my understanding (which could be flawed) that TBC is specifically for VHS sources.

[lordsmurf]

TBC is for anything.

[Blazey]

Sigh...

Ok, I guess I'm re-capturing EVERYTHING!

I wonder how many of us are constantly re-capturing, re-authoring, and in general re-doing things as we learn more or spend more

[spectroelectro]

There's no point in recapturing a LD cap using a TBC if it looks fine already. On the rare LD you will occasionally see some shimmy or encounter other problems that tell you a TBC is needed. On the season 2 opener for Miami Vice, "The Prodigal Son," I needed to use a TBC. Otherwise, all my LD caps have been fine without. YMMV.

[gshelley61]

Laserdiscs have very accurate sync because the medium is not subject to the physical, mechanical and environmental stresses that cause timing problems for analog videotape.

Plus, LD's have no copy protection signals to deal with...

However, running the laserdisc video signal through a TBC might help to clean up some video noise and give you the option of adjusting the picture, if the TBC has those features.

[BJ_M]

Laserdiscs have very accurate sync is correct -- in fact the best of disk medium .. better than dvd in fact

[Blazey]

Laserdiscs have very accurate sync because the medium is not subject to the physical, mechanical and environmental stresses that cause timing problems for analog videotape.

Plus, LD's have no copy protection signals to deal with...

However, running the laserdisc video signal through a TBC might help to clean up some video noise and give you the option of adjusting the picture, if the TBC has those features.

Tell that copy protection thing to my ATI card please? Even with the MV hacks installed I still need the SIMA SCC just to get a signal for PLAY not ever record mind you.

[SatStorm]

Basicly, TBC is a "must" when you are an ATI NTSC user. If you are a non ATI PAL user, TBC is nice to have, but not exactly necessary...
You can do your job nice enough without it.

Anyway, back on topic: Better buy better cables. Laser Disc don't really need TBC.

[Blazey]

Basicly, TBC is a "must" when you are an ATI NTSC user. If you are a non ATI PAL user, TBC is nice to have, but not exactly necessary...
You can do your job nice enough without it.

Anyway, back on topic: Better buy better cables. Laser Disc don't really need TBC.

I haven't really had a problem, I was just wondering if TBC would make it better.

P.S. I only use Monster Cable. What made you think I had crap?

[SatStorm]

Nothing!
What made you think that I think that you had crap cables?

[Blazey]

This?

Anyway, back on topic: Better buy better cables. Laser Disc don't really need TBC.

Forget it. No harm, no foul.

[SatStorm]

Well, I didn't knew what cables you have, also I guessed that you had some kind of problem and you asking for TBC!
But now I know that it was more of a general question.

Since the LD problems are very specific (mostly they are about analogue noise) I guessed that you might had average cables and better cables could help you more than a TBC.
TBC don't eliminate noise, but better cables do help with noise!

I believe that some days (nights actually, is night here) you must stay at Bed

[andkiich]

Basicly, TBC is a "must" when you are an ATI NTSC user.

Not exactly true. I've captured from just about every source imaginable and my ATI 7500 AIW has not had a macrovison problem.

Could you elaborate?

[lordsmurf]

Satstorm just has a way of lumping NTSC into a "problem" category that does not exist. PAL sucks equally as much as NTSC, just that it's problems are different to deal with sometimes.

ALL ...repeat ALL.. digital consumer transfer devices have problems with analog signals. Even a lot.. repeat LOT.. of the pro devices do too. Most often, this is seen by false MV errors, sometimes it's seen as plain crappy quality.

Everybody needs to try an purify the signal as best as possible before it hits a digital converter of any kind. Period. Simple as that. No conspiracy, no "xzy company sucks" .. none of that.

LD is one of several formats that is pretty clean, but a TBC typically will not hurt, and can possibly help.

[Blazey]

Satstorm just has a way of lumping NTSC into a "problem" category that does not exist. PAL sucks equally as much as NTSC, just that it's problems are different to deal with sometimes.

ALL ...repeat ALL.. digital consumer transfer devices have problems with analog signals. Even a lot.. repeat LOT.. of the pro devices do too. Most often, this is seen by false MV errors, sometimes it's seen as plain crappy quality.

Everybody needs to try an purify the signal as best as possible before it hits a digital converter of any kind. Period. Simple as that. No conspiracy, no "xzy company sucks" .. none of that.

LD is one of several formats that is pretty clean, but a TBC typically will not hurt, and can possibly help.

Considering I've learned most everything I know from your site, I think this is the direction I will move in wiht my LD caps.

Thanks Lordsmurf

[SatStorm]

"Satstorm just has a way of lumping NTSC into a "problem" category that does not exist."

NTSC has issues (colour, Luma) PAL don't has. And the NTSC broadcast system has flows PAL don't has (invert colours).

"PAL sucks equally as much as NTSC, just that it's problems are different to deal with sometimes."

This is bullshit. The only thing you know about PAL are from those VHS tapes you may have (maybe SVHS too). And I bet that most of those tapes you have are copies of the original. Or am I wrong?
Just because of curiosity: Have you ever handle a PAL broadcast LS? Those things you mention about how crap PAL is (equaly crap that is), are about first generation tapes, commercial tapes or second generation VHS copies?
Because I have many PAL VHS tapes, I can say that you have PAL crap only when this PAL you see is a product of a NTSC / SECAM to PAL convertion. Also, some commercial tapes are crap because they use to have a master VCR streaming to other VCRs, so the final VHS tape was a second generation VHS copy for real. That was how commercial tapes produced back at the 80s and the early 90s.
When you deal with true PAL B from Germany, Italy, Nordic, the BeNeLux countries, you have first generation VHS tapes with no issues. If you deal with PAL I from UK, you might see problems: PAL I is slighty different the other PAL versions: It has better audio but less good Video.
The problem is that second generation PAL VHS tapes are not good. But this is not the way to judge the PAL system. Better blame JVC...

I believe we already talked about those things regarding PAL LS, maybe a year ago? It seems that you don't remember...

[SatStorm]

Also, regarding TBC and the use of it, many users in this forum already told you more that once that it is not neccessary - always -, as you keep suggest since day 1 you are here.

I suggest you to add an "IMO" or even an "IMHO" once here and there.

@Blazey: what I know about ATI, is what I read at the Card reports.

[Blazey]

@satstorm: But in your FIRST post in this thread you said TBC is a must?!?

I really couldn't be more confused.

[SatStorm]

I said that:
"Basicly, TBC is a "must" when you are an ATI NTSC user. If you are a non ATI PAL user, TBC is nice to have, but not exactly necessary...
You can do your job nice enough without it"

What I do is to seperate the ATI users from the rest.

And I don't think that you are confused. Aggressive yes, confused no.

And don't hit your head so much, you gonna have a headache if you keep doing it

[lordsmurf]

No, not at all.
A year is a long time.

In that time, I've acquired a lot of different PAL tapes and equipment. I've got a special VCR on it's way here right now (JVC HRS7965E), and somebody I deal with owns studio equipment for PAL and SECAM.

NTSC and PAL share a lot of fallacies, and then have a few of their own as well.

I may have started out with PAL only on an ATI, and only with PAL-enabled NTSC equipment, but a LOT has changed since we last had this conversation.

No. Some tapes are copies, some commercial, some studio, and some are homemade first gen tapes. It's not better than NTSC. Just a few differences. I see the some of the EXACT SAME problems on both signal types.

Actually, the best PAL tapes I've ever gotten have come from Australia.

The one thing I've never handled is a live PAL broadcast. But in that regard, it cannot possible be that much different. Neither of those needs a TBC, especially if either is a digital satellite broadcast. The only advantage is PAL countries have better ability to download the streams, and more DVB, but that's not a PAL issue, that's just how it is in those locales.

I respect you, you know that, but I think you're stretching this out a bit too far. I just do not see how you can justifiably lump ATI and NTSC into some kind of problem area. What we're dealing with here is a SIGNAL issue, has nothing at all to do with the capture cards or video format. The resolution, colorspace and framerate is not pertinent material. We're talking about signal loss and media degradation, which happens regardless of the format.

This of course, is more about VHS and S-VHS, not so much LD, so we're straying a bit. I'll save this for another day when it's more on-topic.


One thing few people realize these days is that I don't even need the ATI card much anymore. I have a DVD recorder that can pretty much surpass it's MPEG quality (to a degree), the JVC DRM10S unit. The only reason for a capture card is any AVI editing work. Eventually, I'll have a NLE card for that. The old reason to have a capture card was to filter video. But when you have enhancers and proc amps, etc ... there is very often no need for software. The TBC is STILL one of the most valued pieces of equipment in my current setup. Moreso than the ATI card ever was. It's biggest use is to stabilize jitter, to keep color levels from going batty, and to strip bad data. It keeps a smooth picture and prevents frame loss. That's it's biggest use. PAL or NTSC.

[Blazey]

No, not at all.
A year is a long time.

In that time, I've acquired a lot of different PAL tapes and equipment. I've got a special VCR on it's way here right now (JVC HRS7965E), and somebody I deal with owns studio equipment for PAL and SECAM.

NTSC and PAL share a lot of fallacies, and then have a few of their own as well.

I may have started out with PAL only on an ATI, and only with PAL-enabled NTSC equipment, but a LOT has changed since we last had this conversation.

No. Some tapes are copies, some commercial, some studio, and some are homemade first gen tapes. It's not better than NTSC. Just a few differences. I see the some of the EXACT SAME problems on both signal types.

Actually, the best PAL tapes I've ever gotten have come from Australia.

The one thing I've never handled is a live PAL broadcast. But in that regard, it cannot possible be that much different. Neither of those needs a TBC, especially if either is a digital satellite broadcast. The only advantage is PAL countries have better ability to download the streams, and more DVB, but that's not a PAL issue, that's just how it is in those locales.

I respect you, you know that, but I think you're stretching this out a bit too far. I just do not see how you can justifiably lump ATI and NTSC into some kind of problem area. What we're dealing with here is a SIGNAL issue, has nothing at all to do with the capture cards or video format. The resolution, colorspace and framerate is not pertinent material. We're talking about signal loss and media degradation, which happens regardless of the format.

This of course, is more about VHS and S-VHS, not so much LD, so we're straying a bit. I'll save this for another day when it's more on-topic.


One thing few people realize these days is that I don't even need the ATI card much anymore. I have a DVD recorder that can pretty much surpass it's MPEG quality (to a degree), the JVC DRM10S unit. The only reason for a capture card is any AVI editing work. Eventually, I'll have a NLE card for that. The old reason to have a capture card was to filter video. But when you have enhancers and proc amps, etc ... there is very often no need for software. The TBC is STILL one of the most valued pieces of equipment in my current setup. Moreso than the ATI card ever was. It's biggest use is to stabilize jitter, to keep color levels from going batty, and to strip bad data. It keeps a smooth picture and prevents frame loss. That's it's biggest use. PAL or NTSC.

I have the same JVC recorder. I have the TBC-1000 and a Sima-SCC. I would much rather cap my LD's to the JVC, but ATI's Despeckle filter works magic on my LD's grainy picture. My LD player is a Panasonic LX-120 which is not the highest of quality. Is there a processing amp that would clean up the video in similiar fashion as the Video Soap for hardware only captures?

[lordsmurf]

Not that I know of. The noise reduction I've seen is minimal. Find GSHELLEY. He had one unit that had decent NR, but I forget which one. I'm not sure how much it would do. I'm not sure you'll find much in the way of noise reduction hardware, not that I know about at least.

[gshelley61]

The Feral A4:2:2 time base corrector I am currently using has pretty decent noise filtering (fixed, not variable). There are some Prime Image TBC's that have variable noise reduction. My laserdisc player, a Pioneer CLD-D704, has variable chroma and luma noise reduction, too.

[SatStorm]

- Off topic for LS: -

It happened and I got plenty NTSC VHS tapes myself the last year. I shop a lot from NTSC countries those days. I already have my established opinion regarding those issues I have to deal and I know how to bypass them. My methods and solutions differs a lot yours (based on what you say at your site). And when I refer to the things I do in person, I add an "IMO". You don't. And overall, your posting style is like "my way is the only way". I suggest you to add an "IMO" or even an "IMHO" each time you reply a quastionable subject. And anything regarding TBC and ATI are questionable. Here: https://www.videohelp.com/capturecards is the reason why the ATI cards are questionable. The user reports keep growing and unfortunatelly, the situation regarding the problems the ATI users are facing don't became less over the time.
About TBC, a forum search, especially on older posts, when enthusiasts and advanced members still used to post on this forum (unfortunatelly most of them are now gone, I can't really blame them), can show far better any of my attempts why TBC is not always neccessary.

Regarding PAL VHS:
The only flow PAL has are the errors in the line color caused by PAL technology's phase shifts. PAL avoids NTSC-like full-picture tinge errors by phase alternation from (double-)line to (double-)line. This works well on an ordinary TV screen, but yields visible color errors in computer based image processing. And also yields problems from copy to copy. There are ways to eliminate those things, and the results are excellent

I'll be glad to point me all those same problems you mention between PAL and NTSC. And I would also love to see how you deal with them.
Don't link me to your site, because I have to say that I don't agree with many things you proposing there. Especially at the VIDEO RESTORATION section.

Regarding ATI.
What I keep doing is keep telling the things I read here:
https://www.videohelp.com/capturecards
This is my job, as a Moderator. I'm not a member anymore.
My job is to inform anything regarding a subject. And like it or not, ATI has plenty negative comments.

What you do is defending ATI cards by blaming AMD, VIA, the stupicity of the users, etc, about all those issues the forum users report here: https://www.videohelp.com/capturecards. You do that as an advance member with practical experiance and as an ATI enthusiast. You might expect something good from ATI for keep doing this, even if the problems are still plenty (maybe a position there? I know that you had some job problems some months ago. After all, ATI needs someone like you)

Anyway, I'm the least capable person in this forum to reply to you. Others must do it. But who? All the advance PAL users, left the forum...

My mistake was that I tried to help an ATI NTSC user, something I don't usually do the last 6 months. I won't do it again.

[Blazey]

The Feral A4:2:2 time base corrector I am currently using has pretty decent noise filtering (fixed, not variable). There are some Prime Image TBC's that have variable noise reduction. My laserdisc player, a Pioneer CLD-D704, has variable chroma and luma noise reduction, too.

That Pioneer is a very good player from what I've read. I'll look into that TBC unit. Thanks!

[lordsmurf]

-"IMO" or even an "IMHO" each time

That's sort of a given anytime anybody posts.

I do have methods, and they work. So, yes, to some extent that's all that matters to me. That's the only way I can help. By bringing what I know to the table. Unfortunately, that sometimes means contradicting others.

The largest problem people face with video is bad equipment and personal lack of education. These can both be fixed. I point this out when I see it. I've had it done to me too, only way we learn.

Personally, I think you do things the hard way. But that's your method, and it works for you. I cannot and will not dispute it.

If you want to know what I hate about ATI, or JVC, or any other product I suggest to people, start a thread, and I'll let you know.

I know a TBC is not necessary. I never said it was. But it sure helps. I used an ATI card for two years without much trouble, and without a TBC. But I had projects slowly building that did not give results I wanted. Those had to wait until I did own the TBC. I had others yet again stack up for almost 6 years before I got the proc amp, and now those are done. Some were so old, that they were originally VHS to VHS restoration projects!! This is just how things work out.

[SatStorm]

I use to believe that I know enough, untill the next big thing appears in this hobby and I discovered that I don't know a thing!

I don't do the things the hard way. I do the things once and for all. I mean, when I convert analogue to digital, I don't have in mind the TV I have today, and if the projects had the best possible convertion.
Why? Because for the rest of my life, those converted projects gonna be my source for anything I have to deal at the future.

Our goals are different...

[Blazey]

-"IMO" or even an "IMHO" each time

That's sort of a given anytime anybody posts.

I do have methods, and they work. So, yes, to some extent that's all that matters to me. That's the only way I can help. By bringing what I know to the table. Unfortunately, that sometimes means contradicting others.

The largest problem people face with video is bad equipment and personal lack of education. These can both be fixed. I point this out when I see it. I've had it done to me too, only way we learn.

Personally, I think you do things the hard way. But that's your method, and it works for you. I cannot and will not dispute it.

If you want to know what I hate about ATI, or JVC, or any other product I suggest to people, start a thread, and I'll let you know.

I know a TBC is not necessary. I never said it was. But it sure helps. I used an ATI card for two years without much trouble, and without a TBC. But I had projects slowly building that did not give results I wanted. Those had to wait until I did own the TBC. I had others yet again stack up for almost 6 years before I got the proc amp, and now those are done. Some were so old, that they were originally VHS to VHS restoration projects!! This is just how things work out.

You know what LS? I started in this game 2 years ago and was very unsuccessful. Your site and guides turned a nightmare into a fun hobby. I thank you and I'm sure many others do as well. No need to defend yourself or your methods.

Personally, I think this thread has run it's course.

[SatStorm]

Exactly: LS helped a lot the ATI users.
Even the ATI support suggest unofficially the LS site!
I strongly believe, that without LS, ATI would be a very average solution for our hobby!

Question: What does a product great? A third person capable to make it work, or an "out of the box" 100% working soluton?


Also, what works for ATI, doesn't neccessary work for the rest capture cards. But the way LS present those things, IMO shows like general suggestions for cards beyond ATI. But they are not general suggestions. They are ATI related suggestions. Here is my "problem". I have to speak in general and not in specific.

My first mistake was that I didn't rearch your profile Blazey. If I read it before, my presents here wouldn't be a waste, as it end up to be... LS was the perfect person to answer to you and not me in this case.

[Dr_Layne]

The Feral A4:2:2 time base corrector I am currently using has pretty decent noise filtering (fixed, not variable). There are some Prime Image TBC's that have variable noise reduction. My laserdisc player, a Pioneer CLD-D704, has variable chroma and luma noise reduction, too.

Gshelly; I have a CLD-D704 as well, I cannot see chanes in the video outpu using the variable DNR of the unit. What exactly does it do, and how can I tell if it's working?

Steve