TBC for lasserdisc caps

[gshelley61]

The Feral A4:2:2 time base corrector I am currently using has pretty decent noise filtering (fixed, not variable). There are some Prime Image TBC's that have variable noise reduction. My laserdisc player, a Pioneer CLD-D704, has variable chroma and luma noise reduction, too.

Gshelly; I have a CLD-D704 as well, I cannot see chanes in the video outpu using the variable DNR of the unit. What exactly does it do, and how can I tell if it's working?

Steve

You can see some reduction in LD "streaking" with the use of the VDNR feature wth some discs. If the laserdisc has a real good quality picture, it may not make much difference, however. I have found the composite video output on my CLD-D704 to be superior to the s-video out. The Y/C separation filtering in my JVC DVD recorder does a much better job than the Pioneer LD player.

[vhelp]

The Feral A4:2:2 time base corrector I am currently using has pretty decent noise filtering (fixed, not variable). There are some Prime Image TBC's that have variable noise reduction. My laserdisc player, a Pioneer CLD-D704, has variable chroma and luma noise reduction, too.

Too bad I have the CLD-701 model but still a good unit.

@ Blazey

You need to post a sample pic or too of your issues. May turn out that you don't have any at all, and are just seeing Interlace (3:2 pattern) distortion
which many call *noise* when they discuss problems w/ their projects.
.
Please find some time and post a few pics of your captures.

** open avi inside virtualdub
** scroll to some frames you feel are Noisey
** press Ctrl+1 and then past into your favorite paint program
** then upload that to vcdhelp (or your providers web space)
** try and save as a .PNG if you're using your own webspace.

No matter what the source, most problem sources are Film based. That is, they are
movies people are trying to encode.
.
The most problems to poor quality results are probably due to lack of knowledge in
what the source is. True Film, or Pure Interlace.

* With Pure Interlace, you encode w/ interlace ticked on inside TMPG
* With Film based, you incorporate an IVTC process prior to or during the encoding
... phase.

But, in my HOP, most quality hits are due to Analog Capture cards exhibiting Line
Noise during the capturing phase. I've been fighting this for many years now.
In my quest for the Holy Grail (of clean source capturing) I've come accross a
small hand-full of devices that exhibit ZERO Line Noise. They are:

CARD THAT SHOW ZERO NOISE IN FINAL CAPTURES:
* DC10+ card (an hardware MJPEG analog capture card)
* ADVC-100 (DV device capture card)
* DV cams (DV passthrough feature)
* Pinnacle's AV/DV card (ananlog firewire type card) - still testing this device out !!

So..

A) - First, get rid of the Line Noise *1*
B) - Determine if source is Film or Pure Interlace
C) - Determine if MV (macrovision) -- if found, eliminate them, and move on.

*1* The only Graphics card that will allow you to see the Line Noise in your Analog
Captures is the ATI cards that have the Thearter chip (the older ones, like the
Rage Fury Pro) All everything else, and you wont see them. But, when you encode
these sources (viewing through your so called great nVIDIA cards etc, and play
them, you won't see the distortion or line noise, but when you Author them to a
DVD, you probably will. This will result is those weard bitrate (aka, pixel and
blocks) you see while watching on your TV set.

MV Example 1
TBC will remove MV, but sometimes they make things worse.. depending on the TBC
device (I guess)
Take for instance, my commercial VHS movie, "Jeepers Creepers" This movie will
not de-MV using my SIMA SED-CM device, but with my TBC-100, it does, but the
virtical is very crazy (at the top) and distorts a lot of it, about 40 scanlines
worth.
However, running this same movie through my ADVC-100, and it's almost perfect,
(though MV is gone completely)


MV Example 2
With my movie "Blue Streak" on VHS, I can run it through my SIMA SED-CM with
perfect picture (no MV)

If you are using an ATI capture card, chances are, you will have MV related
issues in your captures.

In other words, there are serveral forms of MV, and you have to factor the above
words (and then some) in your capture process as well.

All though it was not asked, I'm going to say it here..

You might want to re-consider a new capture device. The ADVC-100 is a great
contender. Gets ride of Line Noise (once and for all) and gives no audio sync
issues, and good clean video quality too. zwhat I call the "mini Holy Grail"
of capture devices.

IMHO, no TBC is needed for Laserdisc projects. To date, I have not needed mine.
And, I've used pretty much ALL my capture devices on it and w/out any virtical
roll or what-have-you thus far.

Well, good luck anyways.

-vhelp

[lordsmurf]

vhelp, I'm under the impression Blazey knows about interlace. Could be wrong, but I'm willing to gamble on it.

If this is a false MV error preventing recording, a TBC is needed for that. Maybe even some older drivers would help, then hacked.

The root of the problem is analog noise. At this point, if no TBC is owned yet, look at what GSHELLEY has mentioned. If that Feral TBC is full-frame, and has NR, you can kill two birds at once. Worth looking into.

[gshelley61]

I've just discovered that some pro TBC's call video noise reduction "Coring" and image enhancement (sharpening, detail) "Aperture". The Feral A4:2:2 has a Coring on/off and four levels of Aperture. The Coring (noise reduction) works whether Aperture is increased or not; and it really works, especially on mild snow.

Some laserdiscs can benefit from the noise reduction, and certainly the Proc Amp adjustments, that a pro TBC typically has. The picture may be softened a bit in the process, however.

Oh, yeah... the Feral A4:2:2 is definitely a full frame type TBC.

[Blazey]

I've just discovered that pro TBC's call video noise reduction "Coring" and image enhancement (sharpening, detail) "Aperture". The Feral A4:2:2 has a Coring on/off and four levels of Aperture. The Coring (noise reduction) works whether Aperture is increased or not; and it really works, especially on mild snow.

Some laserdiscs can benefit from the noise reduction, and certainly the Proc Amp adjustments, that a pro TBC typically has. The picture may be softened a bit in the process, however.

Oh, yeah... the Feral A4:2:2 is definitely a full frame type TBC.

Do you know of a good place to buy this??

[gshelley61]

Keep your eyes open on eBay. Feral is no longer in business, but was well respected. These units pop up from time to time and don't go for as much as DPS, For-A or Hotronic TBC's do.

[Blazey]

Keep your eyes open on eBay. Feral is no longer in business, but was well respected. These units pop up from time to time and don't go for as much as DPS, For-A or Hotronic TBC's do.

Sigh... I detest Ebay. I always get screwed.

@ Lordsmurf,

How well do you like your TBC-1000 + that processing amp you have listed on your site? The both units are around $600 which seems like a relatively inexpensive solution.

[BJ_M]

coring to me is a black level issue - not so much noise reduction (though does do noise reduction at a level .... but it is also refered to for noise reduction overall and i guess a correct term for both things..

For noise reduction:
Coring is used to remove fine detail information that does not contribute significantly to the detail of the picture but which adds noise to the image. Imagine the detail information viewed on a scope. About the baseline you'd see primarily the noise information, with the detail extending beyond that. Now imagine that you sliced (or cored) this signal so that only the information above the noise on the baseline came through. You would be left with most of the detail information intact but with much of the noise information removed. The coring adjustment determines how far from the baseline the detail information removed. You want to use just enough coring to reduce the noise in the picture but not so much that the fine detail in the image is affected.


For black level proccessing:
http://neuron2.net/coring.html
Coring is the process where pixels are evaluated against a threshold value and set to pure black if below. This is a "poor man's" noise reduction in the black areas of an image and is implemented in many digital video cameras and capture chips (like the BT848 family).

[gshelley61]

Thanks for the clarification, BJ_M

[gshelley61]

Hotronic sells the basic AP41 brand new for $900

http://www.hotronics.com/