compare ATI and Hauppauge 250 quality

[syeager]

I need advice. I have an ATI TV Wonder Pro (and ATI 9500 Pro) and it is good, but wonder if mpeg2 is better on Hauppauge 250? I can get the Hauppauge 250 for $90 from CircuitCity.

I captured 352x480x4mb/s mpeg2 with many of the suggestions LordSmurf has suggested. Quality is quite good. However, there are 2 points:

1) I get some unusual vertical lines on the hard edges of some surfaces. Not all surfaces and not all the time, but very definite. And I only noticed it on my 35" television with a memorex dvd player. On my 27" tv with philips dvd player, I do not see it.

2) I tried the same settings for capturing a football game with a good signal. The fast motion and the parallel lines on the field render horribly. Even raising the bit rate to 6 or 8 only reduce the effect. The do not completely remove it. It is quite poor compared to the normal movie results (even in fast paced action movies). I even tried to capture in AVI and reencode with Videostudio 7. Problem is less but still there.

3) Does Hauppauge 250 capture in AVI?

Thanks.

[kosekjm]

Hi there,

I can't answer the frist two questions, but as for the third, the Hauppauge is MPEG capture only. It has a built in HW encoder (The 350 also has a HW decoder) that only lets you capture in MPEG.

I've been looking at getting this card, but after playing around and editing some avi and rendering in TMPEG, I too am looking for a good quality AVI capable capture card.

A friend of mine has the 250 and he absolutley loves it. He is using it as a Tivo replacement and I haven't heard him complain about video artifacts. I however haven't had a chance to see any of his clips yet.

Somebody on this board had some clips available for download, but I can't remember who or when. If you do a search, you might come across them.

kosekjm

[Marvingj]

The Hauppauge 350 is great, it does it all. I had a ATI 9500 Pro, it still a good card but for the bucks Hauppauge is much better. Check out the feedback on the card.

[junkmalle]

I have the Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250 and think it's great. Yes, it only captures in MPEG 2 but I don't see that as much of a drawback when you consider it NEVER drops frames. I've even played 3D games while capturing (although this still makes me nervous after using other capture cards over the years!) without dropping frames.

You can capture up to 15 Mbit/sec MPEG 2. I think that's sufficient for virtually any standard video source. I've seen someone elsewhere mention 18 Mbit/sec with the USB2 version but that was either a mistake or the USB2 version allows for high bit rates. I usually use the 12 Mbit/sec variable bit rate. Unless I'm planning to send the recording to a DVD where I have to stick with DVD compatible settings.

I edit analog and digital cable captures all the time with VirtualDubMPEG and never have problems with A/V sync. My final output is usually XVID/MP3 AVI files.

The default noise reduction and sharpening filter settings are a bit high in my opinion. They're probably good for VHS captures and noisy analog TV though. Hauppauge's software doesn't let you change the settings (!) but there is 3rd party software that does. Or you can just edit the registry.

[awhitney]

Hauppage wintv-250 capturing dvd quality with COMPOSITE inputs:







Sold my Canopus advc100 for this card and LOVE IT!

[lordsmurf]

I don't really see a big difference between the two of them..

I prefer ATI over Hauppauge for three reasons:
1) The software, ATI MMC, is much better
2) The Hauppauge chips are several years old, same technology. What they do now is what they will do forever. Because the ATI is partially software-driven (and partially hardware), the card has the chance to improve in quality as CPUs and drivers upgrade. I've seen this happen several times, from MMC 7 to 8 to 9, and as CPUs improved.
3) Ability for AVI-codec captures, and uncompressed


As long as you feed them a clean signal, you should be happy with either one.

For the original poster, for fast sports, up your bitrate.

[junkmalle]

2) I tried the same settings for capturing a football game with a good signal. The fast motion and the parallel lines on the field render horribly.

Are you sure that's not just interlace artifacts? Like this:

[lordsmurf]

Yeah, don't de-interlace.

[presto]

I use Beyond TV and the Hauppauge 250 gives a greatly improved picture over my ATI 7500. If you want to use your computer like a Tivo this works very well. I picked up a second Hauppauge 250 at Circuit City (150.00 - 60.00 in rebates = 90.00). Now I can schedule two tv programs to be recorded at the same time. I can have two shows recording and watch a third that I had recorded earlier.

[awhitney]

I use to have the ati radeon VIVO edition and it just seems it cannot compare with the hauppage wintv-pvr250. the pvr250 seems more sharp and saturated and just looks somewhat better to me at least.

[syeager]

junkmalle,

What settings did you use for the soccer game? I do not want to use too high a setting as I will not be able to fit it on a DVD-R. I try to use 352x480 but am willing to up the bit rate from 4mb but if we go above 8, I think we will loose the ability to hold 2.5 hours on a DVD-R. Also, DVD compliance won't allow some of the huge bit rates the WinPVR 250 can do?

If your test was at a high setting, can you try again at a lower setting? Also, NFL Football or College Football is more challenging as there are more people moving on screen.

Thanks for the example.

Great input people. Keep it coming.

Lord Smurf,

What encoder do you recommend for avi-dvd? I used my Ulead VideoStudio 7 and I thought the results were great, but enlarged the output and saw many artifacts, similiar to what ATI did on capture at the same settings. I am looking to get 2.5 hours of good quality on a DVD-R. Maybe 3 hours. What are your suggestions for an alternative to ATI mpeg2 cature when the action is just too fast for a good, clean capture?

[SHS]

lordsmurf about 85% Hauppauge user and some other clone Hardware device mostly just use SageTV, SageTV Recorder , GB-PVR, Beyond TV, etc, etc.

[junkmalle]

junkmalle, What settings did you use for the soccer game? I do not want to use too high a setting as I will not be able to fit it on a DVD-R.

That was recorded off cable TV at WinTV's "Standard DVD" setting -- a variable bit rate that ranges from 6400 to 8000 kpbs. The entire soccer game averages out at about 7000 kbps. You'll only get about 1.3 hours on a DVD at that rate.

I usually record at a higher bit rate but I was time shifting a lot of stuff around then and wasn't planning to keep any of it.

[lordsmurf]

Use ATI MMC for capturing with an ATI AIW card, not something else. Guides on my site.

SHS, I know. I'm not a fan of that software. It's not bad for PVR software, but has other issues. At least with MPEG-2 hardware encoders, it can't muck up encode quality.

[vhelp]

lordsmurf about 85% Hauppauge user and some other clone Hardware device mostly just use SageTV, SageTV Recorder , GB-PVR, Beyond TV, etc, etc.

@ shs

Are those apps "huge" apps, and change your whole display
screen to some goofy looking TV screen ??

Last time I tried something like an all in one PVR, it
change it my display, and hogged my resources and I had
to close out completely before I could do anything. It
was like it as a real-time tv driver.

On another OT..

I'm getting ready for Cable to arrive (they just have to throw
a switch, but insist that I have (had) to wait two weeks, just
for someone to knock on my door and have me sign a piece of paper)
What nonsense !
.
I requested regular Analog cable. I did not want Digital, on the count
of the blocks and other artifacts. Thanks to my Antenna (best and clearest
channel WB20) is block-free. My guess is that Analog Cable is the same vs.
Satellite (which is riddled with blocks - speically for sports)


@ awhitney

I'm curious.. what is your source ?? ..Analog Cable; Digital Cable; Satellite.
The reason I ask is because I did notice some macro blocks, even though your
pics were nice and clean

-vhelp

[SHS]

"huge" apps no not at all
Both SageTV and GB-PVR avg about 65MB where BeyondTV is bit more memory avg 80MB
I have no idea why it was change your display it shouldn't be doing that but then again I not what your ref to so it hard to so.

Yes you rigth nothing block-free and other artifacts free and yes speically for sports and high action TV movie and TV show but it all depend on the channel I watch and yes I have Satellite Dishnetwork.
For Example there use watch TechTV I alway had off wall artifacts on the Anime Unleashed but now that G4TechTV took over I ever seem thoses some artifacts again I belive that the broadcast dose very poor job stream digital info.
No Analog Cable is not the same as Satellite it more like Digital Cable.

[syeager]

OK, so I bought a Hauppauge 250 and installed it with the latest drivers from their website. I did not see the quality that you produced from your sample shots. The mpeg result, even when set higher than ATI settings was usually just a little worse. Certainly not better.

It corrected some static well on a couple of pretty bad tv channels ... too well. The result had no noise but was noticably blurry.

TV viewing without recording was kind of choppy ( I cannot explain this one, other than to say the ATI played smoother ).

Even setting the mpeg 2/dvd capture settings to max, it looked good, but not great. Not to the quality of your samples. I am not certain what the problem is, but the ATI is more accomodating, interface wise, and just as clean, if not more so.

Oh, and LordSmurf, I found that the TV Wonder Pro does not use the Theater 200 chip, as some sites reported. It appears to use a Conexant BT-883 chip. So, in your opinion, how much do we loose between the TV Wonder Pro and a All-in-Wonder VE? And do I loose anything if I get an AIW VE but do not use it as my primary display adaptor?

[SHS]

syeager most likely awhitney has very good feed in order to get good quality this well know when using Home DVD Player vs TV boardcast.

[equinox137]

Hey lordsmurf, isn't there a huge marcovision problem with the ATI AIW card???

[presto]

Hey lordsmurf, isn't there a huge marcovision problem with the ATI AIW card???

I'm going to jump in here because I've been very involved in this issue.

The problem is that when recording SOME VHS tapes, usually older or second generation copies, the picture will flutter or have other problems. Some have suggested that the card is falsely detecting macrovision but it seems to me more accurate just to say that the card can't handle the signal because it is out of standard in some way.

[SatStorm]

Hauppauge don't use any more bt878
Last year switched to those new 10 bit conexant chipsets with great results.

I must also say about the great drivers and the great German support the Hauppauge cards overall have. I don't know for NTSC issues, but for us, the PAL users, Hauppauge stands prety high!

[Nelson37]

I have no experience with the Hauppage card. However, it will never improve as you upgrade your PC, as will the ATI.

With any capture, a CLEAN input signal is critical. Use the S-video input, better signal and this BYPASSES THE TUNER. Spend some time and some test burns to adjust brightness, saturation, and hue to match original signal and captured signal, played on target player to TV. THIS CANNOT BE DONE WITH THE PC MONITOR ALONE!!!

Digital TV will have some blocks, true. But look closely at the noise in an analog signal. This translates as MASSIVE motion, which, unless you use a very high encoding bitrate, will result in, guess what, macroblocks.

ATI cards, and many others, are known and demonstrated to produce artifacts when capturing at lower resolutions, specifically 352x480 and lower. Use a higher res, regardless of your source. Do it, look at the results, and you decide.

This will be my fifth year capping NFL games. The line of scrimmage at the snap was for several years my worst case scenario for testing.

Digital cable, S-video input, res 720x480, bitrate VBR 4.5 to 5.0 or 5.0 to 5.5 (keep the gap small), no soap, Interlaced, no other progs running, reboot before each cap, reboot at the quarters and the half - this last is mainly to keep the files smaller for easier editing. Cut the commercials and burn to disk.

Remember that with ATI cards the bitrate you specify is NOT repeat NOT the final bitrate you will achieve. The above rates fit an edited game on one DVD.

[junkmalle]

It corrected some static well on a couple of pretty bad tv channels ... too well. The result had no noise but was noticably blurry...

Try this utility to adjust the noise filtering:
http://www.shspvr.com/download/pvr250prefiltertweak-1.0.zip

TV viewing without recording was kind of choppy ( I cannot explain this one, other than to say the ATI played smoother ).

You may need to run the "Primary" utility and set the display to "Allow Overlay"

I also disable the weave deinterlacing filter for the display via a registry tweak. I like to see the interlace artifacts on the computer. I use the PVR-250 in conjuction with a Matrox G450 graphics card -- which handles the interlace perfectly on the TV out.

A site with lots of useful tips for the PVR-250/350:
http://www.cask-of-amontillado.com/htpc.html

[equinox137]

The problem is that when recording SOME VHS tapes, usually older or second generation copies, the picture will flutter or have other problems. Some have suggested that the card is falsely detecting macrovision but it seems to me more accurate just to say that the card can't handle the signal because it is out of standard in some way.

Ok.....but every card I've ever had doesnt detect macrovision at all. In my eyes, if the card detects it, then it has a macrovision problem.[/list]